More on the changes at Serotta

[veloduffer]

I saw this posted across the hall- am article in local paper that had a lot of candor on the pressures facing the firm and the need to change to meet the challenges. Plus a video with Ben...

Serotta move

[Louis]

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Let's hope for the best.

[dekindy]

Wow, that really exemplifies just how dramatically the economic downturn has impacted companies, especially those selling high ticket products.

My local LBS indicates their business has continued to grow and are moving into a new, larger building this year and have opened a new location downtown with commuters in mind(showers and bike storage lockers) which is the opposite direction that most LBS's and Serotta is going. I am glad as they have a great service department and really take care of me in general. They are a Serotta dealer and currently have more Serotta's on their floor and more prominently displayed than historically.

[rice rocket]

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.

I would generally disagree, and I think the people who moderate the board appear to feel the same way:

Used bikes get your name out there. Honda, VW and Volvo have all successfully marketed to the number of old cars still running.

Similar "competition" fosters an environment where people want to buy the kind of stuff you sell, creating more buyers who see the difference between high end and meerly expensive. When Pete recommends Moots and cracks on Lynskey, it might be some sort of insider knowledge none of us is privvy to, or it is fostering a price point.

Anyway, I think this forum and used board is "good advertising". Serotta is having problems that they've had before, and the economy does suck. They aren't having problems because people can buy used ones.

[Hawker]

The businesses that are most likely to survive a long term "recession" are those with very little or no debt. I hope Serotta is able to get to that point, if they are not there already.

[Fivethumbs]

I still don't understand what the reason was for discontinuing a lugged steel frameset. I always lusted after a lugged Serotta and now that I can afford one they are not available. Plus the custom lugged steel frame market seems to be the one niche that continues to grow (if the number of new builders that keep popping up is any indication).

I also think that it's very difficult to compete against companies that sponsor teams, especially when someone has a bundle to drop on a bike. It is very tempting to want to buy the same bike that someone raced in the Tour. People seem to equate the bikes that are ridden by teams as being cutting edge while the bikes that are not ridden by teams are somehow a step down. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter because as we all know, someone's perception is their reality.

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by Kontact

I would generally disagree, and I think the people who moderate the board appear to feel the same way:

Used bikes get your name out there. Honda, VW and Volvo have all successfully marketed to the number of old cars still running.

Similar "competition" fosters an environment where people want to buy the kind of stuff you sell, creating more buyers who see the difference between high end and meerly expensive. When Pete recommends Moots and cracks on Lynskey, it might be some sort of insider knowledge none of us is privvy to, or it is fostering a price point.

Anyway, I think this forum and used board is "good advertising". Serotta is having problems that they've had before, and the economy does suck. They aren't having problems because people can buy used ones.

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?

[eddief]

sounds as if ben is running as fast as he can to get this under control and i wish him and the company a bright future. but the downturn mentioned in that article is severe and sounds as if things need to move fast.

finding the right product mix could be challenging and maybe back to some lugged steel would make sense when you consider the competition from all the single person custom frame builders.

serotta should be able to compete favorably with any single builder across the spectrum of steel, ti, mixed media, and carbon. right sizing can be a bitch and i hope they are successful. seems as if Richard Schwinn is holding it together? with Waterford, Gunnar, and contract building for others....and does not offer carbon or ti.

go get em Ben!

Originally Posted by Fivethumbs

I still don't understand what the reason was for discontinuing a lugged steel frameset. I always lusted after a lugged Serotta and now that I can afford one they are not available. Plus the custom lugged steel frame market seems to be the one niche that continues to grow (if the number of new builders that keep popping up is any indication).

I also think that it's very difficult to compete against companies that sponsor teams, especially when someone has a bundle to drop on a bike. It is very tempting to want to buy the same bike that someone raced in the Tour. People seem to equate the bikes that are ridden by teams as being cutting edge while the bikes that are not ridden by teams are somehow a step down. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter because as we all know, someone's perception is their reality.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?

Well, the average car in the US is 10 years old, so that means that a lot of cars out there are as old as any Serotta.

But I think your second paragraph is really interesting. Fivethumbs' post echoes this - where is the excitement? The last Ottrott we had in the shop had some really stylish lug work, but I haven't seen anything on here about it.

Maybe Serotta let itself become to vanilla, instead of getting Vanilla. With both carbon and Ti "lugs" they really could be getting more artsy and individual with their frames, and better fit themselves into the price niche they occupy.

[sailorboy]

rice rocket's point of the used market is interesting, but the other side of that coin could be viewed that the forum classifieds, and the feeling of 'family' and/or 'mensch' here might make it easier for those with the means to upgrade to a new serotta every couple-three years b/c a) they know they can unload their used bike here easily and b) they feel better about keeping it in the family so to speak rather than releasing it to the ebay or CL hordes.

I think I've seen numerous examples of this over the years here.

I hope whatever the outcome, that serotta endures

[pdmtong]

Not everyone will buy used. Some have to have new, just because, or due to unique geometry, paint etc. requirements.

I think the larger issue is in communicating the differentiation. certainly serotta delivers in carbon, ti, mixed, steel. whatever you want. But, has the aura disappeared?

consider seven. they aren't even on the map in my local area anymore.
IF? I love IF but not many here out west.

FWIW I have an ottrott and it is a fantastic bike and a sublime ride. But, I realise the days of mixed material have past and with the advent of carbon like tarmac SL , 2, 3 and 4...an even harder sell to those fast 20-somethings....

[1happygirl]

I haven't read the video or watched the article but I hope for the best as I hope to one day own a brand new built for me Serotta. It will be built to my body and specifications.

I was recently with some of my peeps who were renting jet planes and I asked the guy how business was. He said the peeps that can afford to do this don't have downturns. It may not be true for Serotta, but I don't think all sectors are suffering.

What are the taxes in NY compared to CA? It would be great if he could stay true to roots and stay local, even though NY state is not close to me personally.

[54ny77]

is this forum moderated by volunteers, or some combo of volunteers & serotta staff?

agreed that the forum should make better use of marketing since it is, after all, a captive audience & forum and they as owners can do whatever they want.

how much biz is derived from forum awareness, i.e., does the forum help drive sales? that would be an interesting statistic--which doesn't have to be shared here of course but hopefully it's food for thought by the serotta team in evaluating the effectiveness of this web property.

more official serotta involvement here would be great. product introductions, discussions, videos, photos, factory tour (with photo/video content), and increased brand awareness. maybe even have a "dealer spotlight" every week or month as a sticky. push the brand as much as you want!

i profess to ignorance and never clicked on the links to the right of the page until now. the "tour the factory" link is pretty cool. never even noticed it--which is my own fault.

[fogrider]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?

I would say that there is a fair amount of passion for serottas on this board. the thing about old bikes is that, they are old and new frames are lighter, stiffer, and ride better. I ride my legend ti a couple of times a week as my training bike and love the ride. the bike is no longer the lightest frame with the lightest components. and I'm not going to rebuild it with the 1" headtube...I want something with a bb30 and bigger tubes and maybe a sloping toptube.

I think the cost of a new serotta might have something to do with drop in demand. I know many custom builders are not cheap, but when the price starts at 4K, people are going to shop around.