More on the changes at Serotta

[William]

Originally Posted by benb

On top of all this I'd imagine the Serotta customers are an aging demographic group. High end prices get justified by racing success for most people.. most of us in our mid 30s are too young to remember when Serotta mattered in racing, but we probably rode with some older guys who mentioned Serotta. Guys in their 20s who are just starting out as serious adult cyclists & racers were not born and they're not going to hear it from those of us in our 30s who ride with them. All they are likely to see is older/slower riders that they go zipping by.. Most people want to emulate fast guys.. if they don't see any fast guys on Serottas they are not going to see the value of the brand. They are young and don't need funky geometries to account for lacking flexibility or odd dimensions as even asian carbon frames are now available in a much wider range of sizes & geometries then they were a few years ago. For these people there is an "emporers new clothes" thing going on. They don't care about US manufacturing because they grew up used to using things being built all over the world, and they're not going to believe there is something magic in a Serotta that justifies a $2000-4000 price increase over a frame/fork combo from other brands. For me I can still afford a Serotta, but my ownership experience didn't show me anything that justified the higher price. The bike really didn't have any magic performance that made it better then anything else out there and if I was the kind of person who cared about the name on the downtube it wouldn't have mattered as in 4 years the Serotta name never really impressed anyone who saw my bike.

I've been harping on this point off and on for years. When I was racing, Serotta was a big name in my area. All the successful guys where rocking them so I eventually went that route as well. I did well on mine to. When guys are winning on them, even on the local level, they get noticed and the up and coming racers want them. The image gets ingrained. This is why even today I have a soft spot for Serotta. I don't own any now and as much as I would like, in my current stage of family life I can't justify spending that kind of $$ on a new one. Yes, there is nothing magic about them. There are a lot of nice alternatives that will get you from point A to point B just as fast and just as comfortably (assuming proper fit). But, you just aren't part of the legacy and name....the price of that has gone up considerably in recent years....priced it out of the reach of the younger crowd (=up and coming consumer base).

Bring back the cheaper race iron for the young racers. Bulk Collegiate and club deals like the past to rebuild the name with the younger crowd. I came in on the tail of that and it worked on me.





William

[John H.]

I think this is spot on- Serotta needs focus.
The last time they were doing something better than other was when the Ottrott was a new bike. At that time they were churning out bikes pretty darn good (both volume and speed)- was this not profitable?
Also- Tig road frame costs as much as any custom road frame out there- or more.
Cheap Serotta Ti costs as much as others premium ti frame.
Legend Ti costs more than other Gucci ti frames.
Ottrott/Mevici etc. have to compete with high end stock bikes that weigh less, are stiffer, have bb30 etc- they really only work for someone that wants something esoteric.

Originally Posted by Climb01742

well said and very true.

[Charles M]

All due respect to the saratogian, while this is about economics, its not about the economy on the whole.

Don't pull a project or a purchase from any of several very good builders thinking that all custom or high end builders are in the same position.


I'm sitting here thinking, how many people have more relative experience in custom bikes than Ben? The list of people that have a demonstrated history of making things work is pretty short...

[rugbysecondrow]

Originally Posted by benb

The problem is marketing your bike as superior to everything else out there just doesn't work when everything else out there is also extremely high quality and you can't demonstrate racing success to create a (false?) sense of the bike actually being better. There aren't exactly many legitimately bad bikes on the market at this point.

There is nothing superior about a Trek or a Specialized either, but for people who want to believe that a Tour De France victory means something, those brands have that going for them. Serotta can't use that message unless they try to play the ProTour racing game.

Constrast this with small builders.. they don't try to tell you their bike is better then the big factory bikes for racing. They just tell you they are dedicated to a particular craft & construction technique, that you'll get personal attention from the builder who has the experience fitting bikes. Serotta doesn't have any of that going for them as they make a ton of different bikes in a ton of construction techniques, they are a big nameless factory to most buyers, and they have/had plenty of dealers & fitters who could not do their part in making the brand & experience live up to the premium billing.

Shrinking and reducing the # of dealers will actually help some of these problems.. less chance of a badly fit custom happening.

This is true, but what the best companies do is sell a lifestyle, vibe, feeling along with the product...like you are part of something. Think Rapha, Apple, Brooks Brothers...great products, but also something greater than that to buy into. I am not saying what Serotta's image or portrayal should be, but it needs to have one and it needs to throw its full weight and force behind it. If that cuts 3/4 of the forum folks, so be it.

[RedRider]

From some of the suggestions and thoughts expressed here I have a few suggestions.
1- Serotta scraps the R&D department. No one really cares about innovation anyway.
2- Serotta selects one maybe two models and only makes those with limited options. Reduce the "hand" part of custom and pre-fabricate many of the tubes so they are ready to build.
3- Outsource the painting to Joe Bell because most frame builders use him and that seems to be what customers want. Serotta can hire less qualified welders and finishers since JB can make any frame look great.
4- Immediately tell people there is a 4 year waiting list for the custom bikes. Take deposits, create a long waiting list, and then sell them ready custom bikes to ride around for the next 4 yrs.
5- Since few people will actually be riding the "new" custom bikes no one will write anything negative and more important they will become mythical creatures.
6- Get a good graphics person to make t shirts, jerseys, shorts etc. This will be the main source of income.
7- Get a big booth at NAHBS.
Just a suggestion... .)

[54ny77]

Brooks Brothers pants can blow a hole if you fart too much.

Their quality--not like it used to be....

Somehow I think my Ottrott will outlast the aftershocks of eating the biggest burrito on earth.

Originally Posted by rugbysecondrow

This is true, but what the best companies do is sell a lifestyle, vibe, feeling along with the product...like you are part of something. Think Rapha, Apple, Brooks Brothers...great products, but also something greater than that to buy into. .

[SPOKE]

I've purchased 7 new Serotta's since 1999. The last one being a Meivici LR in 2006. I'm a huge fan of the man and the brand! I also know that Ben has faced difficult times and has managed to overcome them. I'm confident he can do it again.

Many good ideas have been posted in this thread and I hope Ben can take some time ask read through them. This free advice is valuable and timely.

Best of luck to Ben and the gang at Serrota!

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by RedRider

From some of the suggestions and thoughts expressed here I have a few suggestions.
1- Serotta scraps the R&D department. No one really cares about innovation anyway.
2- Serotta selects one maybe two models and only makes those with limited options. Reduce the "hand" part of custom and pre-fabricate many of the tubes so they are ready to build.
3- Outsource the painting to Joe Bell because most frame builders use him and that seems to be what customers want. Serotta can hire less qualified welders and finishers since JB can make any frame look great.
4- Immediately tell people there is a 4 year waiting list for the custom bikes. Take deposits, create a long waiting list, and then sell them ready custom bikes to ride around for the next 4 yrs.
5- Since few people will actually be riding the "new" custom bikes no one will write anything negative and more important they will become mythical creatures.
6- Get a good graphics person to make t shirts, jerseys, shorts etc. This will be the main source of income.
7- Get a big booth at NAHBS.
Just a suggestion... .)

For this plan to really work you need to have taken a frame building class last year and have experience that consists of not much more than building three or four frames for friends. And a beautiful website.

[merlinmurph]

OK, time for a totally different take on the Serotta situation.

There are two different types of bike companies that seem to do OK.
First, there are the BIG GUYS. Frames are made offshore, and they put the whole bike package together. Even the smaller BIG GUYS are still big guys because they are directly competing with the really BIG GUYS. Lots of marketing, lots of expenses.

Then, there are the little guys, and I mean little. These are one or two man shops, highly regarded, making word of mouth sales, making all the frames they could possibly make. They have little to no marketing, few expenses, and manage to make a few bucks along the way.

Between these two is the dead zone, of which there are very few, if any, survivors. Typically, these are companies that did well as a very small operation and would like to make "the next step". First, there are more employees, which involves space, benefits, and all sorts of other expensive stuff. Then, there are the marketing costs, increasing from nothing to A LOT. So, that's two huge increases of expenses. In order to double the number of frames you sell, you end up spending 5 times as much as before.

From what I read, there are no economies of scale with handmade frames, so the cost of a frame will be the same, whether you're making 5 a month or 50. The one-man shops that make frames are extremely efficient and 10 more pairs of hands aren't going to make it any more efficient. You can't get 9 women pregnant and have a baby in a month.

I'm trying to think of any framebuilders that are in the dead zone. That was one of the downfalls of Merlin - they tried to get bigger. Maybe IF is there? How big is Moots? I'd like to hear of others.

Anyways, I think Serotta was in the dead zone, and between that and a bad economy, they met their match. When I saw their plan for the future - smaller operation, few retailers, direct sale - this is the first thing that came to mind.

Saying all that, I have incredible respect for the company, what they have done, the quality of their product, and I wish them luck in the future. I have no doubt that they will building frames for a long time, just with a different business model. Smaller can be better.

Back around 1990, I absolutely lusted over a Colorado sitting in the window of my LBS. I would just stand there and look at the tubes and think that it was absolutely the sexiest thing out there. Add in the fact that it was the classic Red/Yellow fade paint job, and I was hooked. I ended up getting a Colorado TG the next year.

That's my 2 cents,
Murph

[johnmdesigner]

You have some serious coin to spend on a serious bike. Which one will you buy?
One is hot and one is not.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by William

I've been harping on this point off and on for years. When I was racing, Serotta was a big name in my area. All the successful guys where rocking them so I eventually went that route as well. I did well on mine to. When guys are winning on them, even on the local level, they get noticed and the up and coming racers want them. The image gets ingrained. This is why even today I have a soft spot for Serotta. I don't own any now and as much as I would like, in my current stage of family life I can't justify spending that kind of $$ on a new one. Yes, there is nothing magic about them. There are a lot of nice alternatives that will get you from point A to point B just as fast and just as comfortably (assuming proper fit). But, you just aren't part of the legacy and name....the price of that has gone up considerably in recent years....priced it out of the reach of the younger crowd (=up and coming consumer base).

Bring back the cheaper race iron for the young racers. Bulk Collegiate and club deals like the past to rebuild the name with the younger crowd. I came in on the tail of that and it worked on me.





William

+1. Its not a short-term play by any stretch (and that very may well be what the business needs right now), but I think long-term this is something that should totally be considered.

When I started racing, you'd see Serottas in the group occasionally, and the brand still had very much a reputation as a high performance, high quality company. I think even today, the quality bit is as high as ever, if the frames I see for sale on the forum are any indication.

But I'll take my (admittedly used) Serotta into the shop, and the guys I know there jokingly refer to it as the "dental lawyer" bike. Its only meant in jest and they'll also mention in the same breath how they'd try to buy it off me if it was their size and I was interested in parting with it. But for good or ill -- I'd argue mostly ill -- the brand has come to signify that its only for stodgy, mid-life crisis riders.

I realize the Pro Tour game is something of a fool's errand when you're talking about paring back the business pretty dramatically, and a lot of this is due to an economy that is certainly outside the businesses' control. Serotta's never going to be Trek or Cannondale or Specialized, nor do I think Ben and company want to be. But I do think there are perception issues that have not helped, and some grassroots work would go a long way to correcting that "dental lawyer" notion.

[William]

Great take M&M!





W.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

My thinking is along the lines of merlinmurph. Moots and Vanilla/Speedvagen aside (and I don't really know their economics/profit-loss), it is really hard to compete profitably against one-man shops who do it just as good as Serotta can do it, without the extra overhead.

I would imagine Serotta has to figure out how to differentiate itself from these competitors, do something the one-man shops can't do.

[Pete Serotta]

Yes I am still SEROTTA biased to the core but there are I do not agree with.


Thanks for taking the time to read the forum and also to posts.


In regard to lugged steel, I wish as many folks who like them would buy them also....Ben would then still be making them. I have one or two in the basement and my most often ridden are the ti and HSG carbon. THere are some very nice others like MOOTS, ERICKSEN, SPECTRUM in my view also.


As to CARBON, I am very biased on HSG and like its ride above all other major brands I have ridden. My second choice is the PARLEE Z5 but it is about the same price as HSG.... My motto has always been ride the one that puts the biggest smile on your face.


As to TREK and SPECIALIZED - if they work for you and fit your budget - - go for them. My preference is still the above two in Carbon, Also a racing team will ride whatever sponsors them and also the frames are replaced or handed down pretty often.


Sponsoring teams there days cost major $$$$$$$$$. I do wish Serotta was still at RIDE THE ROCKIES, some of the Grand Fondos, and a few others


Serotta frames are bought by ALL ages and all professions.....Just look at the folks who use the forum. (as well as those that buy them,) Talk to the top dealers on who buys what....they are not the "older than dirt folks like me. And the older ones buy Trek, Specialized, etc -- - just as younger folks do,


as to the number of used frame sold. Serotta has been in business for almost 40 years (SO there are more frames for sale. - - most of serotta steel I have seen are over 10 years old that are being bought and sold.). Many of the brands can not have as many for sale for they are "past" appeal and some past wanting to ride. .......Show me a 10 year old from a major brand that has sold in same price range,,,,Yes there are a few - - but not on the SEROTTA forum where SEROTTA is here. Additionally we have not banned non SEROTTA from forum for I firmly believe that few brands can match SEROTTA over time. YEAH I am not looking to get into an argument and have always believed that you should buy what you want!!! And I have been doing this and still do it!!

At an OPEN house we will have wine and beer for a discussion the night before on me!!!! PETE

AND MOST DEFINITELY HAVE TWO SEROTTA OPEN HOUSES PER YEAR

[Smiley]

Serotta's business plan WAS to compete directly with the BIG Boys in retail shops.......that aint going to happen anymore except for maybe 6 hand picked shops and you guys know who these guys are.

Distribution of high end bikes via the web has changed the way business is done. methinks that expanding the Fit Lab concept to and thru selected fitters maybe worth a try. Better web advertising and presence is another and lastly from my point of view Serotta has WAY too many models and sub models. Narrow down your offerings and if you offer a steel frame make it price point sensative and make it too good to pass up.

Serotta at this point should be a Carbon fabricator since they are totally vertically integrated for this material. And they do do carbon right and they will tell you they make more money on carbon bikes versus Titanium today.