What Happened to Tubular Popularity?

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by VC Slim

The pros will thankfully always use tubular and thus be available to enthusiasts.

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

[StephenCL]

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by .RJ

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

If this becomes true it will be due to tubeless not traditional clinchers.

[ultraman6970]

As stephen said... you can get cheap ass tubbies but those eventhought arent super duper can get your costs down big time... 3x50... for 100 bucks you can get 6 of those, you get puncture just toss it... a good pair of clinchers are over 100 bucks... and thats just one. Will last longer? yeah but at the same time at some point you might need to swap it aswell....

The guys with money dont like the 3x50 tubbies and i do respect that but at the same price range a 15 bucks clincher is something just out of a comic book you know, you cant compare them.

Glue? well months ago I bought 4 cans of glue like for 25 bucks shipped. Have glue in the shelf enough maybe for 10 years at this point.

Everything needs to go down to costs of keeping you rolling you know.

Originally Posted by VC Slim

My reply to the why don't I switch question is that my inventory won't let me, lol. My current price point for top end tubulars is around $30. Plus I don't use sealant which allows me to patch flats.

[Seramount]

have never ridden tubulars or owned anything Campy...

neither has ever seemed essential to enjoying time on a bike.

[VC Slim]

Originally Posted by .RJ

They've largely abandoned it for mountain bikes. Road & CX will be next.

All of the old school euro trends will fade away eventually.

Interesting. Never heard of tubulars for MTB's. And I don't think that it was because it was before my time.

I most likely will have faded away long before the tubular trend.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

While some will claim they don't care about weight of their bike, while straddling their 8-900 gram carbon frame, with top end gruppo, carbon post, stem and handlebars, and their carbon clinchers firmly attached in the dropouts, I do wonder if they are aware of the 2-300 grams of additional weight they're dragging around as a result of their convenient wheel choice?

For Example: Campy Bora 35 Ones: 1360 vs 1170 (a little more discrepancy on the Bora 35 discs.

Just sayin ....

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).

[Imaking20]

Edit:^Regarding weight; probably not. I have never carried a spare tubular tire with me and there's been only one time where I needed to call for assitance (which also happens when people don't pack enough spare tubes or co2 for their clinchers). With how crazy people are getting about tubeless tires - I'm shocked that more folks haven't realized you can basically treat a tubular tire the same way and preload with sealant if you like. Or wait until the flat, spend ~90 seconds loading sealant, and not worry about another flat for 6 months until the sealant dries up.

Edit #2: you're also wrong about the rolling resistance. Most magazines are focused on testing crr of clincher tires but that does not mean tubulars are slower. It just means there is less data... and the data that IS available shows that both tires are capable of rolling very, very fast. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

Originally Posted by StephenCL

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

^all of this

These technical arguments people make against tubulars seem to my like people being unwilling to put in a little research (which will debunk a lot). Change is hard for people and it's easy to talk yourself out of tubulars when there's a perception that gluing tires is super complicated (or that tape is woefully insufficient). I've gone back and forth between tubulars and clinchers - and between gluing and taping. There is zero temptation for me to own clinchers at this point. I'll take the improved ride quality, handling, and carry sealant. Even my wife rides tubulars exclusively and she's drawn to road debris like a magnet. I preload her tires with Orange Seal and I've since spent considerably less time fixing flats than when we were riding clinchers.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by StephenCL

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

2) I heard that tubulars are sooo much more expensive than tubulars ...false, the gap has been dramatically closing. The newest wide and soft clinchers from all the major brands, are drastically increasing in price, add in a latex tube or two that you will go through and the differential is minimal...maybe $10-$15 per wheel.

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

Let me point out a couple other misconceptions and points to consider.

1) Modern tubulars really don't need to be stretched. Continental are likely the exception here. Vittorias, Veloflex, FMB all three can slide right on these days.
2) Its true that if you flat a tubular, it is a major ordeal. However, Orange Seal or Stans has all but solved the mundane thorn punctures and there are services for re-tubing tubular tires these days. The upside is that compared to my buddies that ride clinchers, I rarely flat (knock on wood).


My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers. Yes, there is the occassional rolled tubular tire on the hot summers day, but by in large those began as punctures and would have had the same result on clinchers..on the other hand, I have had more than one flat while flying at speeds over 40MPH, where the only thing that saved my bacon was that my tires were glued on....

Just my .02

Stephen

If you're going to rail against "misconceptions", why point to a weight penalty that doesn't exist?

Why point to puncture sealant as an advantage of tubulars? Tubulars have tubes inside them, just like clinchers, and the sealant doesn't care what kind of tire it is.



I don't know why anyone would really care about the stretching thing that much. Properly gluing a tubular takes 2 days, what's another day of stretching on top of that?




The flatting during descent thing is interesting, but I've never heard of a clincher rider crashing because of a high speed flat while I know people who have definitely rolled tubulars. Is this objection overstated?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by StephenCL

Incredible thread, but so many misperceptions that I really don't know where to start, so I will point out a few:

1) I heard from some that clinchers are easier to change a flat...false, I guarantee I can change my tubular faster than you can change your clincher, even on your fastest day...

I've had a few flat changing "races" with my tubular riding friends, and while it may largely come down to skill, it is true that they often change their tubulars faster than I change my clinchers - but the time difference comes down to a fraction of a minute. But the tubular time difference only comes out ahead for the first flat tire ... it sometimes happens that riders get more than one flat tire on a ride, and I don't know anyone that carries more than one spare tire, whereas it is very easy to carry multiple spare tubes.

Originally Posted by StephenCL

3) I heard that the latest clinchers ride as good as tubulars...this is the marketing gods trying to convince you that the generic store brand taste just as good as the real thing. Yes, they have solved the rolling resistance issue, however, they don't corner as well...it is really a physics issue...we can go into that later if anyone wants..and they don't spin up as fast... I think many folks have pointed to the signifcant weight penalty.

This is an ironic statement - particularly when you claim some type of scientific evidence. In reality, your claim is all about perception (or misperception), as there is very little evidence to suggest one type tire corners better than the other. The very few traction tests I have seen have shown no particular bias towards one type of tire or another. The dominant variables appear to be tire width and tread material (but even here, no causation can be firmly established). As far as the weight issue, it has been well established that wheel weight is such a small portion of total weight that other factors (such as rolling resistance and even aero drag) play larger rolls in acceleration.

Originally Posted by StephenCL

4) Pro's only ride what they are paid to ride ... false, if this were the case, they would ALL be riding clinchers... For years Pro's have been riding tubulars from FMB or Veloflex stamped as other brands that didn't make tubulars...also, don't you remember when all the pro's bought their own lightweight wheels...

I'll bet you that the vast majority of pros do ride clinchers - on their training wheels. And for the same reasons that most other riders use clinchers. Tubulars only become an advantage if you have a support vehicle following you around with spare wheels in case of flat tires, and also that you have to keep riding on a flat tire while waiting for the support vehicle to catch up to you. Since that is not the case for most riders, tubulars are not an advantage.

Originally Posted by StephenCL

My final point is this...if you like going downhill realy fast, you are doing yourself a dis-service by NOT riding tubulars. Over the last 30 years, I have seen too many wrecks casued by flatted clinchers that result in serious injury due to the rider/racer running clinchers.

I too have seen crashes caused by flatted clincher tires. And I have seen a few crashes caused by rolled tubulars. While I've seen more of the former than the latter, I can't say that it is a greater ratio than the population of people who ride clinchers vs. tubulars.

(Anecdotally, there are actually some pro riders who switched from tubulars to clinchers for descents, due to the danger of brake heat melting glue. The most famous was Miguel Indurain, but there have been others, as well.)

[KarlC]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).

Do people even carry extra tubular tires on a ride these days with sealant being so poplar and ez to use ?

The extra drag of tubular tires .... what extra drag ????

[StephenCL]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

As Kontact pointed out, total bicycle weight includes the spare tubes/tires that are carried. In many cases, the weight of clincher wheels and tires plus a spare tube is less than the weight of tubular wheels and tires plus a complete spare tire. The Campagnolo wheels you bring up have an unusually large weight differential between tubular and clincher models, but the tubular wheels + spare tire still comes out only a few grams ahead. For Zipp tubulars/clinchers, the clinchers come out ahead.

But even for the Campagnolo wheels, the tubulars are still slower - the extra drag of tubular tires more overwhelms any weight difference (even if you don't include the spare tire).

1) there is a significant difference between rolling weight and static weight. Sticking a spare 240gram tubular in your jersey or under your saddle has little impact on your overall perfomance...adding 200 grams of rotating weight at the rim....yup, a lot more impact to the rider...hence why tubulars spin up so much faster.

2) don't forget what we are talking about in terms of speed all of these so called "studies" are built around trying to prove that clinchers are as fast as tubulars...I see the benefit for time trials, but not in the real world of road racing. The constant ebb and flows of road racing demand better acceleration and better cornering. So triathaletes and tt specialists can run clinchers all day long......

[Imaking20]

Originally Posted by Kontact

If you're going to rail against "misconceptions", why point to a weight penalty that doesn't exist?

Why point to puncture sealant as an advantage of tubulars? Tubulars have tubes inside them, just like clinchers, and the sealant doesn't care what kind of tire it is.



I don't know why anyone would really care about the stretching thing that much. Properly gluing a tubular takes 2 days, what's another day of stretching on top of that?




The flatting during descent thing is interesting, but I've never heard of a clincher rider crashing because of a high speed flat while I know people who have definitely rolled tubulars. Is this objection overstated?

Gluing tires takes me an hour. I let them sit overnight.

I have 192 gram tubular tires. Can you show me a clincher and tube that's comparable in weight?

Do you REALLY know anyone who has rolled a tubular? Have you seen it? Because I've ended up off the road flattish a clincher on carbon wheels.

As for the effectiveness of sealant in a clincher, I don't know if that's accurate. I'm also not willing to test it because my experience flattish clinchers is that they go flat almost instantly - whereas every tubular flat has been a slow leak down.

[StephenCL]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This is an ironic statement - particularly when you claim some type of scientific evidence. In reality, your claim is all about perception (or misperception), as there is very little evidence to suggest one type tire corners better than the other. The very few traction tests I have seen have shown no particular bias towards one type of tire or another. The dominant variables appear to be tire width and tread material (but even here, no causation can be firmly established). As far as the weight issue, it has been well established that wheel weight is such a small portion of total weight that other factors (such as rolling resistance and even aero drag) play larger rolls in acceleration.

There is absolutely scientific evidence that clinchers will never corner as well as tubulars. The side extrusions of a clincher rim change the possible deformity of the tire during cornering. This has been well documented in the past.

Also, I have over 30 years experience riding and racing on both clinchers and tubulars, as well as a team of 25 riders, of which half race with tubulars...

I realize this is a discussion regarding every day use...but if clinchers rode as well as tubulars the entire peloton would be riding them...

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by StephenCL

There is absolutely scientific evidence that clinchers will never corner as well as tubulars.

Care to share the evidence?

99% of riders will run out of self preservation, if not skill/confidence, before running out of grip on most clinchers.

Originally Posted by StephenCL

I realize this is a discussion regarding every day use...but if clinchers rode as well as tubulars the entire peloton would be riding them...

Euro trends die hard. No one wanted to ride carbon wheels with wider tires until the Zipp engineers did the tests and showed them the data - the wheels got destroyed the first year because the mechanics didnt trust the engineers. Plus, its a fantasy world of marginal gains. And for the rest of us.... ?

All y'all tubular proponents get awful upset and go to great lengths to mansplain how awesome they are when someone doesnt agree they arent god's gift to cycling But what do I know, I ride aluminum bikes and use SRAM shifters.