More on the changes at Serotta

[veloduffer]

I saw this posted across the hall- am article in local paper that had a lot of candor on the pressures facing the firm and the need to change to meet the challenges. Plus a video with Ben...

Serotta move (http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2011/10/25/news/doc4ea5a153ccc7f156376564.txt?viewmode=default)

[Louis]

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Let's hope for the best.

[dekindy]

Wow, that really exemplifies just how dramatically the economic downturn has impacted companies, especially those selling high ticket products.

My local LBS indicates their business has continued to grow and are moving into a new, larger building this year and have opened a new location downtown with commuters in mind(showers and bike storage lockers) which is the opposite direction that most LBS's and Serotta is going. I am glad as they have a great service department and really take care of me in general. They are a Serotta dealer and currently have more Serotta's on their floor and more prominently displayed than historically.

[rice rocket]

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.

[Kontact]

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.
I would generally disagree, and I think the people who moderate the board appear to feel the same way:

Used bikes get your name out there. Honda, VW and Volvo have all successfully marketed to the number of old cars still running.

Similar "competition" fosters an environment where people want to buy the kind of stuff you sell, creating more buyers who see the difference between high end and meerly expensive. When Pete recommends Moots and cracks on Lynskey, it might be some sort of insider knowledge none of us is privvy to, or it is fostering a price point.

Anyway, I think this forum and used board is "good advertising". Serotta is having problems that they've had before, and the economy does suck. They aren't having problems because people can buy used ones.

[Hawker]

The businesses that are most likely to survive a long term "recession" are those with very little or no debt. I hope Serotta is able to get to that point, if they are not there already.

[Fivethumbs]

I still don't understand what the reason was for discontinuing a lugged steel frameset. I always lusted after a lugged Serotta and now that I can afford one they are not available. Plus the custom lugged steel frame market seems to be the one niche that continues to grow (if the number of new builders that keep popping up is any indication).

I also think that it's very difficult to compete against companies that sponsor teams, especially when someone has a bundle to drop on a bike. It is very tempting to want to buy the same bike that someone raced in the Tour. People seem to equate the bikes that are ridden by teams as being cutting edge while the bikes that are not ridden by teams are somehow a step down. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter because as we all know, someone's perception is their reality.

[rice rocket]

I would generally disagree, and I think the people who moderate the board appear to feel the same way:

Used bikes get your name out there. Honda, VW and Volvo have all successfully marketed to the number of old cars still running.

Similar "competition" fosters an environment where people want to buy the kind of stuff you sell, creating more buyers who see the difference between high end and meerly expensive. When Pete recommends Moots and cracks on Lynskey, it might be some sort of insider knowledge none of us is privvy to, or it is fostering a price point.

Anyway, I think this forum and used board is "good advertising". Serotta is having problems that they've had before, and the economy does suck. They aren't having problems because people can buy used ones.
A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?

[eddief]

sounds as if ben is running as fast as he can to get this under control and i wish him and the company a bright future. but the downturn mentioned in that article is severe and sounds as if things need to move fast.

finding the right product mix could be challenging and maybe back to some lugged steel would make sense when you consider the competition from all the single person custom frame builders.

serotta should be able to compete favorably with any single builder across the spectrum of steel, ti, mixed media, and carbon. right sizing can be a bitch and i hope they are successful. seems as if Richard Schwinn is holding it together? with Waterford, Gunnar, and contract building for others....and does not offer carbon or ti.

go get em Ben!


I still don't understand what the reason was for discontinuing a lugged steel frameset. I always lusted after a lugged Serotta and now that I can afford one they are not available. Plus the custom lugged steel frame market seems to be the one niche that continues to grow (if the number of new builders that keep popping up is any indication).

I also think that it's very difficult to compete against companies that sponsor teams, especially when someone has a bundle to drop on a bike. It is very tempting to want to buy the same bike that someone raced in the Tour. People seem to equate the bikes that are ridden by teams as being cutting edge while the bikes that are not ridden by teams are somehow a step down. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter because as we all know, someone's perception is their reality.

[Kontact]

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?
Well, the average car in the US is 10 years old, so that means that a lot of cars out there are as old as any Serotta.

But I think your second paragraph is really interesting. Fivethumbs' post echoes this - where is the excitement? The last Ottrott we had in the shop had some really stylish lug work, but I haven't seen anything on here about it.

Maybe Serotta let itself become to vanilla, instead of getting Vanilla. With both carbon and Ti "lugs" they really could be getting more artsy and individual with their frames, and better fit themselves into the price niche they occupy.

[sailorboy]

rice rocket's point of the used market is interesting, but the other side of that coin could be viewed that the forum classifieds, and the feeling of 'family' and/or 'mensch' here might make it easier for those with the means to upgrade to a new serotta every couple-three years b/c a) they know they can unload their used bike here easily and b) they feel better about keeping it in the family so to speak rather than releasing it to the ebay or CL hordes.

I think I've seen numerous examples of this over the years here.

I hope whatever the outcome, that serotta endures

[pdmtong]

Not everyone will buy used. Some have to have new, just because, or due to unique geometry, paint etc. requirements.

I think the larger issue is in communicating the differentiation. certainly serotta delivers in carbon, ti, mixed, steel. whatever you want. But, has the aura disappeared?

consider seven. they aren't even on the map in my local area anymore.
IF? I love IF but not many here out west.

FWIW I have an ottrott and it is a fantastic bike and a sublime ride. But, I realise the days of mixed material have past and with the advent of carbon like tarmac SL , 2, 3 and 4...an even harder sell to those fast 20-somethings....

[1happygirl]

I haven't read the video or watched the article but I hope for the best as I hope to one day own a brand new built for me Serotta. It will be built to my body and specifications.

I was recently with some of my peeps who were renting jet planes and I asked the guy how business was. He said the peeps that can afford to do this don't have downturns. It may not be true for Serotta, but I don't think all sectors are suffering.

What are the taxes in NY compared to CA? It would be great if he could stay true to roots and stay local, even though NY state is not close to me personally.

[54ny77]

is this forum moderated by volunteers, or some combo of volunteers & serotta staff?

agreed that the forum should make better use of marketing since it is, after all, a captive audience & forum and they as owners can do whatever they want.

how much biz is derived from forum awareness, i.e., does the forum help drive sales? that would be an interesting statistic--which doesn't have to be shared here of course but hopefully it's food for thought by the serotta team in evaluating the effectiveness of this web property.

more official serotta involvement here would be great. product introductions, discussions, videos, photos, factory tour (with photo/video content), and increased brand awareness. maybe even have a "dealer spotlight" every week or month as a sticky. push the brand as much as you want!

i profess to ignorance and never clicked on the links to the right of the page until now. the "tour the factory" link is pretty cool. never even noticed it--which is my own fault.

[fogrider]

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?
I would say that there is a fair amount of passion for serottas on this board. the thing about old bikes is that, they are old and new frames are lighter, stiffer, and ride better. I ride my legend ti a couple of times a week as my training bike and love the ride. the bike is no longer the lightest frame with the lightest components. and I'm not going to rebuild it with the 1" headtube...I want something with a bb30 and bigger tubes and maybe a sloping toptube.

I think the cost of a new serotta might have something to do with drop in demand. I know many custom builders are not cheap, but when the price starts at 4K, people are going to shop around.

[KF9YR]

I bought my first Serotta this August (Ottrott GS).

It was a frame hanging on the wall at my lbs.

Most of the floor space is taken by Cannondale and Trek as most of the consumers want to look at or purchase one of the bikes they can test out or read about in a magazine.

I didn't even notice the Serotta frame until the owner said something about it after a ride we had taken on a Sunday morning. I took a closer look and decided I would buy it if it fit...

After my purchase I logged on the Serotta website and discovered this forum. I liked the fit/finish/performance of my Ottrot so much that I have since bought an older full Ti road bike and a full Ti mtb (this one hasn't been shipped yet but I'm just waiting on shipping price confirmation).

I would have never bought the two used Serottas without this forum and I couldn't afford another new one just a couple of months after buying a new Ottrott.

I hope Serotta can make a turnaround and either start selling more bikes or get in a position where they can sell the current number of bikes at a profit. I have definitely mentioned Serotta to my friends and many of them have never seen a new model before seeing mine.

[slowgoing]

The businesses that are most likely to survive a long term "recession" are those with very little or no debt. I hope Serotta is able to get to that point, if they are not there already.

+1.

I hope they can sell the place quick. Can't be fun to be paying for a bigger place than you need.

[Bruce K]

We Mods are volunteers.

We just happen to be Serottta owners / lover too. Most of us have been around for a long time on the Forum, Owners Club, and at Serotta sponsored events.

Three of my bikes carry Owners Club badges from back when they had them(well the cross bike one got removed but I still have it).

BK

[jpw]

I haven't watched the video yet.

Serotta - great product, poor website and brand communication. Some pruning is required.

The website doesn't do justice to the product, and there should be no more gallery or classifieds for other brands of frame.
There are many other things wrong with the website, and as a simple example, it's fine to promote Signature Cycles and its new website design on the Serotta homepage, but one clicks on the link and the first thing one sees is...a Seven Axiom. That should be a Serotta Meivici.

Dealers. I clicked on the websites of some of the dealers on the dealer list and some don't even mention Serotta. Have dealers in places where cycling is popular due to good weather, good roads, good pathways, and generally positive attitudes towards the bicycle.

The frame range. Build bikes that are more 'real'. Dirt road bikes are great. Peter White says he feels sorry for people who have frames that can't accommodate wider tires. Carl Strong's personal favorite is the 'dirt road' road bike. What about frames for Rohloff-type gears?

I ride Serotta. Great bike. Love it. We should all try to help to give Ben good feedback.

All the best.

[Ti Designs]

I still don't understand what the reason was for discontinuing a lugged steel frameset. I always lusted after a lugged Serotta and now that I can afford one they are not available. Plus the custom lugged steel frame market seems to be the one niche that continues to grow (if the number of new builders that keep popping up is any indication).

There are a few lugged steel builders who will always be busy building (or trying to source quality materials), but that's a very short list. Most of the frame builders can't support themselves with just frame building, if there's another source of income they continue to build, if not... What you're seeing is the marketing, no builder is going to stand there at a show and tell people he can't afford the next tube set. I've worked for Peter Mooney for over 25 years, I've owned 8 of his frames, I think the combination of his talent and his doing the same thing for so long makes him one of the best frame builders. I also think that if he wasn't part owner of a large bike shop his frame building days would have ended long ago. Don't mistake the desire for steel lugged frames on this forum as actual sales numbers, it's not. It's like when there's a Ferarri parked outside the shop, everybody checks it out but I'm not seeing any of them rushing over to the dealership.


I also think that it's very difficult to compete against companies that sponsor teams, especially when someone has a bundle to drop on a bike. It is very tempting to want to buy the same bike that someone raced in the Tour. People seem to equate the bikes that are ridden by teams as being cutting edge while the bikes that are not ridden by teams are somehow a step down. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter because as we all know, someone's perception is their reality.

You are an advertising person's dream. There's an old saying in racing that black shoe polish is a team color (it's what we used to black out lables of equipment that conflicted with the sponsors). Just the same, I have to say, based on the statement above, that marketing is a powerful force. It's very much like during an election there are people standing on street corners with the name of some candidate on a sign. It's a really stupid practice, you would think that nobody's decision would be changed by a bunch of signs on wooden sticks, held by people they don't know. It works, so they continue to do it (both standing on corners with signs and sponsoring pro riders). Does that pro rider have anything to do with the quality of that bike? More to the point, will it make you a better rider? The marketing says they do and it will, but that's what marketing does...

[rugbysecondrow]

What is Serotta known for? What is their niche? If customers think " custom steel bike", _________ company comes to mind. If customers think "custom titanium bike" _____________company comes to mind. If customers think "custom carbon bike" ______________company comes to mind.
Sadly, I don't think Serotta is the answer to any of these questions or a part of the statements above any longer. If you look at their product line-up, it is too broad, too confusing, too hard to differentiate the difference between models (15-18 different models). The line-up lacks focus and has been watered down.

How do they find focus? How do they get back to doing one thing and doing it better than anybody else? How do they get thier name to the top of the list again? What is that niche, steel, TI or going all carbon? What will their new formula be regarding sales and dealers?

[Climb01742]

Serotta - great product, poor website and brand communication.

i hope ben finds someone to help him communicate why someone should buy a serotta. the bikes are great.

i'd be curious how parlee is doing. they've embraced Z4/Z5 out-sourced models to hit a more affordable price point. i think brands need entry models.

[Climb01742]

What is Serotta known for? What is their niche? If customers think " custom steel bike", _________ company comes to mind. If customers think "custom titanium bike" _____________company comes to mind. If customers think "custom carbon bike" ______________company comes to mind.
Sadly, I don't think Serotta is the answer to any of these questions or a part of the statements above any longer. If you look at their product line-up, it is too broad, too confusing, too hard to differentiate the difference between models (15-18 different models). The line-up lacks focus and has been watered down.

How do they find focus? How do they get back to doing one thing and doing it better than anybody else? How do they get thier name to the top of the list again? What is that niche, steel, TI or going all carbon? What will their new formula be regarding sales and dealers?

well said and very true.

[d_man16]

Whishing all the best to Ben and his family, I'm sure this has got to be one of the more difficult times for him.

~D

[Gothard]

From my end-user, huge Serotta fan point of view:

When I visit a website, I am a complete dummy and want to be guided. Steel, go there. Ti, go there, carbon, click here. What material to choose? read this.
Pricing? on the relevant frame page, or list there--->
Acronyms? How will I retain that GS is better than AE, which is parallel to SE, and concentric with ready custom???? I'm a dummy, remember...

When I visit a (bicycle) website, I am surfing for bike porn. Bicycles in situation with a nice scenery, some close-up shots, but no small image of a bicycle whose details I can not make out, against a bland background.

As for pricing, well... Let me put it this way: I want a sloping full Ti bicycle, badly enough that I am selling parts to finance it. I love my Legend beyond words, it is the most delicate, engineered, well thought of build and tweaking of Ti that I know.
Still, it would be minimum 2500$ more than most of the well renowned competitors. No go. Those 2500$ will pay for the groupset.
Exactly the same thing happened for my just-bought MTB.

I still think Serotta makes the best Ti ever, but like a Ferrari, I'll gawk and ride another brand for my next sloping Ti.

[Elefantino]

I'm no marketing guy, although when I finally get laid off from the newspaper business I'm probably beg someone in marketing for a job.

That said, like many/most on this forum I have owned more bikes than cars. Of the last 10 bikes I've owned, four have been from Serotta. (Three used; one new.) I've farmed out all but one of them (although I wish I still had the Atlanta ... grrrrr) — my Concours OS. I can't get rid of it because even though I, like others, tend to gravitate toward the latest high-zoot equipment I can afford (i.e., my current Roubaix), the Concours is the bike I'll take out when I want to have a great ride, over any distance, in any condition.

So if Ben can say that the Meivici is "The Best Carbon Bicycle In The World," he should carry that all the way.

Forget "Serotta ... it's why you ride" (awful) or "Nothing rides like a Serotta" (a typically lawyered corporate boast that I just made up).

Go for broke.

"Serotta ... The Best Bicycles In The World."

"Serotta ... The World's Best-Riding Bicycles. Period."

"Serotta ... If You're Not Riding One, You Probably Wear Your Bib Shorts Over Your Jersey."

OK, so that last one probably wouldn't work. But if Ben & Co. are going to concentrate on the GS line and return to craftsmen roots instead of trying to be all things to all people, tell the world what most of us already know.

I'm happy to be an unpaid spokesperson. :D

[roydyates]

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.
The effects you're describing are a consequence of the Internet/web in general rather than this forum in particular. In the absence of the web, the bike market is less efficient in matching up buyers and sellers and manufacturers (like Serotta and all others0 can earn larger profits by effectively exploiting the market inefficiency.

I suspect I would never have heard of Serotta in the pre-Web era. Here in Central Jersey, I have yet to enter a store that even sells them. Now I own a few old serottas and I covet some new ones. On the whole, that effect should be good for serotta.

[AngryScientist]

many good points made here.

I sincerely hope Serotta can come through this rough patch, hopefully a smaller, stronger, better company, making the bikes they ever have. here's to you ben, :beer:

[William]

The effects you're describing are a consequence of the Internet/web in general rather than this forum in particular. In the absence of the web, the bike market is less efficient in matching up buyers and sellers and manufacturers (like Serotta and all others0 can earn larger profits by effectively exploiting the market inefficiency.

I suspect I would never have heard of Serotta in the pre-Web era. Here in Central Jersey, I have yet to enter a store that even sells them. Now I own a few old serottas and I covet some new ones. On the whole, that effect should be good for serotta.

Have to agree. Ebay and the internet in general has done more on that front then the Serotta classifieds ever could. There is a good market for used Serottas and bikes in general. Especially when a new "S" is around 4G's and up.

It would be great if Serotta still made steel, but the dollars weren't there to support it. Remember when the collective cry went out that the CSI was being discontinued? There was enough of a rumble from the forum and elsewhere that "S" offered to do another run if a certain number of those folks ponied up. Not many did so off into the ether went the CSI.

I'm sure the economy has a large part to do with what is happening at the home of the Big "S". Lack of a coherent marketing message has been pointed out as well about the website and ad copy. The only other thing I will say on this topic is that I've talked to an insider and the message is a bit different then the public message. To be expected and since it's hearsay I won't elaborate.

I hope that Ben and crew can get things under control and free up the capitol to get things moving in the pipeline. A wonderful product with a top notch rep for quality and customer service.




William

[oldpotatoe]

sounds as if ben is running as fast as he can to get this under control and i wish him and the company a bright future. but the downturn mentioned in that article is severe and sounds as if things need to move fast.

finding the right product mix could be challenging and maybe back to some lugged steel would make sense when you consider the competition from all the single person custom frame builders.

serotta should be able to compete favorably with any single builder across the spectrum of steel, ti, mixed media, and carbon. right sizing can be a bitch and i hope they are successful. seems as if Richard Schwinn is holding it together? with Waterford, Gunnar, and contract building for others....and does not offer carbon or ti.

go get em Ben!

Richard Schwinn is having one of his best years ever as is Moots, 2 that I have intimate knowledge of.

"do one thing and do it well" comes to mind. I think they both recognize what they are good at, what made them successful, what market they are pursuing and they aggressively pursue that market...steel, ti, nothing more.

[veloduffer]

Many of the posts have made some good points and observations. Here's a few more:

1) I think the forum has opened many more eyes to the Serotta brand. It did for me, even though I've been aware of Serotta for over 20 yrs. Until joining the forum, I never considered owning a Serotta and currently have two. The forum's presence has been enhanced by many of the fine folks here lending their knowledge, particularly the fitters and shop owners. And those answers to questions often come up in any Google search, which again helps brand awareness.

2) Serotta could do more to create awareness through the web. I think one of the best forms of advertisement is having a knowledgable rep contribute and answer questions on other websites like roadbikereview.com and weight weenies. I think that many bike companies don't use have a web representative and miss the opportunity on a relatively low cost form of advertising. Word of mouth can be more powerful than typical advertisements.

3) Following the word of mouth bit, the used bike marketplace cuts both ways. While it does "undercut" new bike sales, riding a Serotta is a form of advertisement. This is important for small firms without the marketing presence and retail presence of a Trek/Specialized. Other riders notice my Serotta and at times, ask questions if they are unaware of the brand. With so many new folks to the sport, this is important. Nothing better than seeing a good experienced rider on a Serotta for others to observe. Many of the new folks will eventually buy another bike and that puts Serotta into the mix.

4) I think that Serotta might need a $1500 to $2000 bike to get a larger share of the pie and hold its own. I look at Lynskey and what they've done in a short while. They are aggressive in marketing and their price point is attractive. Even though they are a titanium shop, their name comes up quite a bit on the web as a good value proposition vs carbon fiber. With the increase in age of the boomers, the sport-touring Cooper is the kind of bike that many would buy. It's like the business model for the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus - have higher end models at the various price points to maintain the luxury image but attract a less wealthy clientele that will hopefully trade up as they age.

5) Instead of sponsoring a whole team, how about a recently retired star or two like Hincapie (would dovetail nicely with his clothes lineup) or Jens Voight (when they retire). Visits at dealer shops and conventions like the bike expos can be effective advertising.

6) I think they underutilize the fitting program and could have specials on fitting, which many folks need but don't want to pay $200 or more. Couple a fitting special with a demo program in high density areas like NY, Boston, etc would be terrific. This could also be done at large rides like the Grand Fondo or MS Rides.

I hope Serotta can right size its business - it's a great product and company that needs a bit of tweaking to deal with the weak economic environment.

[jpw]

...and do what Patagonia does, offer an ebay link to used Serotta listings (embrace the market and the web). Churn is required to free capital for new purchases. Out with the old, in with the new.

Retire the multi material frames until the market picks up. Go with all carbon, all ti (no carbon seat stays), and all steel (no carbon seat stays). Cut paint options, increase decal color options. Real wide tire frames, and internal hub geared frames.

Go with a minimalist website design. Nice logo, simple layout, forget a blog if you're not going to make very regular posts there (it makes the place look unoccupied), cut the clutter, the marketing spiel, even the model names could be better. Forget 'SE' and 'GS' - it's 'Serotta' that counts. Trim, slash, take no prisoners, but do something to sharpen up the offering. Good luck.

[Nooch]

I suspect I would never have heard of Serotta in the pre-Web era. Here in Central Jersey, I have yet to enter a store that even sells them. Now I own a few old serottas and I covet some new ones. On the whole, that effect should be good for serotta.

Expand your horizons, come to park ridge!

5) Instead of sponsoring a whole team, how about a recently retired star or two like Hincapie (would dovetail nicely with his clothes lineup) or Jens Voight (when they retire). Visits at dealer shops and conventions like the bike expos can be effective advertising.


Well, there's Bill Watkins winning the Master's National Championship... But I agree that it's still 'amatuer' racing and not too many people know the Rusty Lion..

Wishing Ben&co the best as they figure out the business plan for the next 25 years.

And if they need someone to do the social marketing for them -- their last tweet was almost six months ago... I'm in!

(an aside, since apparently we're all looking at the website.. how does the cyclesport ad look?)

[cmg]

i have been fortunate enough to have owned 4 Serottas (1 new, 3 used) and have another used one waiting to be built up. when the club/group sees me cycle through the various Serottas instead of a Specialized/trek/cannondale or my carbon Fuji the question of why i keep buying them comes up. i think that builds brand recognition. Best wishes to Serotta. i know the brand will survive even if it reduces down to a independent fabrication type size shop.

[RedRider]

Interesting.

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).

#2, it brings to light many other framebuilders that are indeed competitors to Serotta. I understand that the custom bike world has a collective attitude and many framebuilders are former employees or apprentices at Serotta, but at the end of the day, they're your direct competitors and are not paying your bills to help you stay in business.


Yes, second hand bicycles do offer buyers a lower price point for those who would otherwise be unable to afford a Serotta at MSRP. And yes, they do allow current owners some path to liquidity to afford another Serotta, but often times people are curious and venture away from the brand in search of more exclusivity.

Is the right answer to stifle competition (from your own used market and your direct competitors)? I don't know. I don't think so, but this forum should be a marketing tool for Serotta, and not a free-for-all like it is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great community, but it's not helping build the brand IMHO.

Just my opinion though.


Rice Rocket gets it! While the moderators and many Forum members are fans and supporters of the brand no Serotta employee contributes (at least on behalf of the company). Why should they? They are all making and trying to sell new frames. They are not paid to answer geometry questions on a 1987 steel bike that you bought on ebay. Ben's recent activity was probably a reaction to all the negative speculation that came up in recent topics. His involvement should be encouraged. Hopefully, the reorganization of the company will include more involvement with this Forum and a revamping so that it does advance Serotta. There are many very well informed contributors and a few well respected competitors that on occasion contribute. That's great and there should be more of it. But let's not forget the name of this place is the Serotta Forum. The majority of the content should be relative to the brand. For those of you that have been around for a while you know how many other forums have been spun off this one so they could focus on a more specific topic.
What has made Serotta different from many other custom/handmade bicycles is their innovation. I have tremendous respect for builders such as Sachs, Bedford, Kirk(in the uber league), Ellis etc but only Serotta has developed new materials and techniques to create new frames that still incorporate the 40 year old ethos of hand craftmanship and ride quality. Yet few of you ever discuss these new bikes in positive topics.
For years everyone asked Ben to make a steel lugged bike and you still do! Yet six months ago, when the company announced Ben himself would be making the Le Patron to celebrate his association with Columbus did any of you buy one? Did you even say anything positive on the Forum?
When the company recently announced the Pave version of the MeiVici the same thing. You guys/gals debated over the brake reach, brake models and as usual did nothing positive for the brand or this new model.
The frames/bikes have always been at the top of the pyramid in price and quality. According to his recent comments, that's what Ben wants to once again secure. IMHO, the market doesn't need a $1000-2000 Serotta. That market is well covered by the big boys.
Best wishes to Ben and the company.

[Louis]

Not that I don't love this forum, but I think it contributes to the demise of the brand.

#1, it creates a rather large market for second hand Serottas. When old bikes used to be put out to pasture and locked in a shed, nowadays you can sell your Serotta to anyone across the country (or world if you choose).


This may have been mentioned above, but if not, how do you know that folks selling used Serottas aren't using the money to buy new ones? Everything's interconnected. Furthermore, a robust used market helps support the resale value, which can't be bad for any brand.

[eddief]

i think part of the issue is what you say below. the infrastructure costs of doing r and d and developing new approaches must be huge. therefore you must charge way more per bike to cover costs and make a profit. question is are there enough customers who want to pay that much for the rarified air at this level of bicycle. while i can appreciate great tubes, great workmanship --- you can probably get 90 plus percent of the ride quality at less than 50 percent of the price...from a zillion other individual or corporate makers. serotta has built a rep as an artisan brand and either the marketplace won't support it and/or business missteps have put the model in danger. probably a combo of both. one thing to have great designs and great craftsmen, another to hire the right marketing and management folks to be successful.

for me the basic lack of clarity of the website is symbolic. this is a major window for the world into the brand and products and it does not come close to doing justice to either.

"The frames/bikes have always been at the top of the pyramid in price and quality. According to his recent comments, that's what Ben wants to once again secure. IMHO, the market doesn't need a $1000-2000 Serotta. That market is well covered by the big boys.
Best wishes to Ben and the company."

[sc53]

A bicycle is a durable good, beyond what a car is. Cars can suffer mechanical failure and the cost to bring it back to working condition often exceeds the value of the car. The need for replacement is what creates the repeat buyer market you're suggesting. Short of a huge collision with something solid, bicycles endure. Are people scrapping Serottas for a bent chainring or a gritty headset?

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?
I've often noticed this too, but Serotta seems to think having the forum is a good idea. It could well be a victim of the now-pressing need to downsize, consolidate, and sell off assets. Not sure how much the forum costs the company, but it's more a public service and cool place to chat than a marketing tool for SEROTTA. We all get names and info on other custom builders from this forum. The big schism occurred when some people were thought to be shilling other brands too much, like publishing web links to other builders' sites. Wouldn't it be ironic if the "hall" collapsed and we were all forced into the same room again.

[William]

And maybe I don't read all the threads, but there are rarely questions about Serottas other than "I bought this, what's my serial number and how can I tell when it was built?" Most forum topics about customs are about Kirks, Bedfords, Zancs, Vanillas/Speedvagens, Pegorettis, Hampstens, etc. If this is "good advertising", how come there is more than double the number of customs in the bike gallery than there are Serottas on THE Serotta forum?

That may also reflect the fact that new Serottas are priced beyond what a larger percentage of people/forum members can pay or are comfortable paying?

Granted when talking Bedfords or Kirks it tends to be considered "In the family".

Sure other brands get talked about, but how many threads have you seen actually bashing "S"? Questioning why they did things is different then saying "they suck". Most I can remember had many forum members coming out in defense of the brand.

Imo, you turn this forum into Serotta only for marketing purposes, you,re cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sounds good in theory, but go check out some of the other brand only forums....mostly crickets.




William

[1happygirl]

I think the cost of a new serotta might have something to do with drop in demand. I know many custom builders are not cheap, but when the price starts at 4K, people are going to shop around.

Maybe this $?
A year ago looked at a custom while waiting for a friend, the bike shop employee tried to steer me towards another custom brand. Quote---"Serottas are expensive and this brand is still custom with quality and not as $$$ for the same"
I think this forum builds the brand and peeps are willing to pay for quality but the differentiation and quality aspect should be stressed and communicated. I think it is communicated by the people that own Serottas, I'm not sure about others though.
PS I know nothing but I think any website/forum at any point of a company reorganization or redirection is the least of it.
Getting magazines like Bicycling et al to talk about a particular brand I think would be the catch.

[benb]

I love the idea of Serotta (mostly because I have a soft spot for stuff made in the US) but it feels like something has been screwy the entire time I've been paying attention.

Marketing & direction seemingly changes every year, the price increases seem way out of whack, the Saratoga facility seems to have been built to support much larger production #s but they never managed to grow that big since they increased prices so much, etc, etc.. Almost as if the bigger factory was built in hopes demand would appear rather then to meet real growing demand.

When I bought my Serotta in 2007 it didn't seem outrageous compared to my other options.. Today they seem outrageous. For people who are buying the bike for a rarefied air and the name on the downtube there is always going to be something more rarefied since Serotta is a bigger company. For everyone else it is extremely hard to believe a Serotta can be superior enough to everything else out there to justify the prices.

On top of all this I'd imagine the Serotta customers are an aging demographic group. High end prices get justified by racing success for most people.. most of us in our mid 30s are too young to remember when Serotta mattered in racing, but we probably rode with some older guys who mentioned Serotta. Guys in their 20s who are just starting out as serious adult cyclists & racers were not born and they're not going to hear it from those of us in our 30s who ride with them. All they are likely to see is older/slower riders that they go zipping by.. Most people want to emulate fast guys.. if they don't see any fast guys on Serottas they are not going to see the value of the brand. They are young and don't need funky geometries to account for lacking flexibility or odd dimensions as even asian carbon frames are now available in a much wider range of sizes & geometries then they were a few years ago. For these people there is an "emporers new clothes" thing going on. They don't care about US manufacturing because they grew up used to using things being built all over the world, and they're not going to believe there is something magic in a Serotta that justifies a $2000-4000 price increase over a frame/fork combo from other brands. For me I can still afford a Serotta, but my ownership experience didn't show me anything that justified the higher price. The bike really didn't have any magic performance that made it better then anything else out there and if I was the kind of person who cared about the name on the downtube it wouldn't have mattered as in 4 years the Serotta name never really impressed anyone who saw my bike.

Shrinking production and making the finances work for a smaller production run to the older/wealthier guys who still remember Serotta's heyday is probably the right thing to do, hopefully they can make it work.

[victoryfactory]

I wish Serotta (The man and the brand) all the best.
Unlike many of the high end builders in the USA, Ben has always
tried to bring the top quality custom bicycle to a larger market.

He is always fighting an uphill battle, though. As you expand it gets
harder and harder (and way more expensive) to control quality, development,
advertising, dealer network etc.

I know one thing, if Mr Serotta is willing to pick up a torch once in a while
for custom projects he can probably
have all the business he wants in a smaller shop. (That's a tough call though,
I wouldn't want to do that if it was me)

[cfox]

I love the idea of Serotta (mostly because I have a soft spot for stuff made in the US) but it feels like something has been screwy the entire time I've been paying attention.

Marketing & direction seemingly changes every year, the price increases seem way out of whack, the Saratoga facility seems to have been built to support much larger production #s but they never managed to grow that big since they increased prices so much, etc, etc.. Almost as if the bigger factory was built in hopes demand would appear rather then to meet real growing demand.

When I bought my Serotta in 2007 it didn't seem outrageous compared to my other options.. Today they seem outrageous. For people who are buying the bike for a rarefied air and the name on the downtube there is always going to be something more rarefied since Serotta is a bigger company. For everyone else it is extremely hard to believe a Serotta can be superior enough to everything else out there to justify the prices.

On top of all this I'd imagine the Serotta customers are an aging demographic group. High end prices get justified by racing success for most people.. most of us in our mid 30s are too young to remember when Serotta mattered in racing, but we probably rode with some older guys who mentioned Serotta. Guys in their 20s who are just starting out as serious adult cyclists & racers were not born and they're not going to hear it from those of us in our 30s who ride with them. All they are likely to see is older/slower riders that they go zipping by.. Most people want to emulate fast guys.. if they don't see any fast guys on Serottas they are not going to see the value of the brand. They are young and don't need funky geometries to account for lacking flexibility or odd dimensions as even asian carbon frames are now available in a much wider range of sizes & geometries then they were a few years ago. For these people there is an "emporers new clothes" thing going on. They don't care about US manufacturing because they grew up used to using things being built all over the world, and they're not going to believe there is something magic in a Serotta that justifies a $2000-4000 price increase over a frame/fork combo from other brands. For me I can still afford a Serotta, but my ownership experience didn't show me anything that justified the higher price. The bike really didn't have any magic performance that made it better then anything else out there and if I was the kind of person who cared about the name on the downtube it wouldn't have mattered as in 4 years the Serotta name never really impressed anyone who saw my bike.

Shrinking production and making the finances work for a smaller production run to the older/wealthier guys who still remember Serotta's heyday is probably the right thing to do, hopefully they can make it work.

AGREE, especially your point regarding demographics. Simply stated, Serottas simply aren't 'cool' right now. They are trapped between cheaper, racy bikes and edgy, crafty NAHBS bikes. Deserved or not, the whole 'dentist bike' thing is hurting them. As an owner of a Serotta and fan of the marque, I hope they can reinvigorate the brand.

[benb]

The problem is marketing your bike as superior to everything else out there just doesn't work when everything else out there is also extremely high quality and you can't demonstrate racing success to create a (false?) sense of the bike actually being better. There aren't exactly many legitimately bad bikes on the market at this point.

There is nothing superior about a Trek or a Specialized either, but for people who want to believe that a Tour De France victory means something, those brands have that going for them. Serotta can't use that message unless they try to play the ProTour racing game.

Constrast this with small builders.. they don't try to tell you their bike is better then the big factory bikes for racing. They just tell you they are dedicated to a particular craft & construction technique, that you'll get personal attention from the builder who has the experience fitting bikes. Serotta doesn't have any of that going for them as they make a ton of different bikes in a ton of construction techniques, they are a big nameless factory to most buyers, and they have/had plenty of dealers & fitters who could not do their part in making the brand & experience live up to the premium billing.

Shrinking and reducing the # of dealers will actually help some of these problems.. less chance of a badly fit custom happening.

[Chance]

Sad but accepting there is a problem is usually a necessary first step. Interview makes it sound that in hindsight there are a few regrets about decisions made that didn’t work out well.

Lack of innovation for a premium brand has to be the biggest problem. By the time Serotta moved into carbon it had already become a low-cost commodity so it’s difficult to demand a huge price premium compared to other carbon manufacturers that have been perfecting their products for decades. It’s one thing to claim that your carbon is the best in the world but it’s another to have someone pay 3 times more for a similar bike from another well-established company that has been making them for years.

And that leaves titanium. Undoubtedly one of the best in the world but with shrinking market share and lots of competitors. Not a pretty picture either.

This forum probably has little to do with the problems the company faces. Moving forward too slowly with some products like carbon and not leading on innovation are more serious issues.

[William]

On top of all this I'd imagine the Serotta customers are an aging demographic group. High end prices get justified by racing success for most people.. most of us in our mid 30s are too young to remember when Serotta mattered in racing, but we probably rode with some older guys who mentioned Serotta. Guys in their 20s who are just starting out as serious adult cyclists & racers were not born and they're not going to hear it from those of us in our 30s who ride with them. All they are likely to see is older/slower riders that they go zipping by.. Most people want to emulate fast guys.. if they don't see any fast guys on Serottas they are not going to see the value of the brand. They are young and don't need funky geometries to account for lacking flexibility or odd dimensions as even asian carbon frames are now available in a much wider range of sizes & geometries then they were a few years ago. For these people there is an "emporers new clothes" thing going on. They don't care about US manufacturing because they grew up used to using things being built all over the world, and they're not going to believe there is something magic in a Serotta that justifies a $2000-4000 price increase over a frame/fork combo from other brands. For me I can still afford a Serotta, but my ownership experience didn't show me anything that justified the higher price. The bike really didn't have any magic performance that made it better then anything else out there and if I was the kind of person who cared about the name on the downtube it wouldn't have mattered as in 4 years the Serotta name never really impressed anyone who saw my bike.



I've been harping on this point off and on for years. When I was racing, Serotta was a big name in my area. All the successful guys where rocking them so I eventually went that route as well. I did well on mine to. When guys are winning on them, even on the local level, they get noticed and the up and coming racers want them. The image gets ingrained. This is why even today I have a soft spot for Serotta. I don't own any now and as much as I would like, in my current stage of family life I can't justify spending that kind of $$ on a new one. Yes, there is nothing magic about them. There are a lot of nice alternatives that will get you from point A to point B just as fast and just as comfortably (assuming proper fit). But, you just aren't part of the legacy and name....the price of that has gone up considerably in recent years....priced it out of the reach of the younger crowd (=up and coming consumer base).

Bring back the cheaper race iron for the young racers. Bulk Collegiate and club deals like the past to rebuild the name with the younger crowd. I came in on the tail of that and it worked on me.





William

[John H.]

I think this is spot on- Serotta needs focus.
The last time they were doing something better than other was when the Ottrott was a new bike. At that time they were churning out bikes pretty darn good (both volume and speed)- was this not profitable?
Also- Tig road frame costs as much as any custom road frame out there- or more.
Cheap Serotta Ti costs as much as others premium ti frame.
Legend Ti costs more than other Gucci ti frames.
Ottrott/Mevici etc. have to compete with high end stock bikes that weigh less, are stiffer, have bb30 etc- they really only work for someone that wants something esoteric.

well said and very true.

[Charles M]

All due respect to the saratogian, while this is about economics, its not about the economy on the whole.

Don't pull a project or a purchase from any of several very good builders thinking that all custom or high end builders are in the same position.


I'm sitting here thinking, how many people have more relative experience in custom bikes than Ben? The list of people that have a demonstrated history of making things work is pretty short...

[rugbysecondrow]

The problem is marketing your bike as superior to everything else out there just doesn't work when everything else out there is also extremely high quality and you can't demonstrate racing success to create a (false?) sense of the bike actually being better. There aren't exactly many legitimately bad bikes on the market at this point.

There is nothing superior about a Trek or a Specialized either, but for people who want to believe that a Tour De France victory means something, those brands have that going for them. Serotta can't use that message unless they try to play the ProTour racing game.

Constrast this with small builders.. they don't try to tell you their bike is better then the big factory bikes for racing. They just tell you they are dedicated to a particular craft & construction technique, that you'll get personal attention from the builder who has the experience fitting bikes. Serotta doesn't have any of that going for them as they make a ton of different bikes in a ton of construction techniques, they are a big nameless factory to most buyers, and they have/had plenty of dealers & fitters who could not do their part in making the brand & experience live up to the premium billing.

Shrinking and reducing the # of dealers will actually help some of these problems.. less chance of a badly fit custom happening.

This is true, but what the best companies do is sell a lifestyle, vibe, feeling along with the product...like you are part of something. Think Rapha, Apple, Brooks Brothers...great products, but also something greater than that to buy into. I am not saying what Serotta's image or portrayal should be, but it needs to have one and it needs to throw its full weight and force behind it. If that cuts 3/4 of the forum folks, so be it.

[RedRider]

From some of the suggestions and thoughts expressed here I have a few suggestions.
1- Serotta scraps the R&D department. No one really cares about innovation anyway.
2- Serotta selects one maybe two models and only makes those with limited options. Reduce the "hand" part of custom and pre-fabricate many of the tubes so they are ready to build.
3- Outsource the painting to Joe Bell because most frame builders use him and that seems to be what customers want. Serotta can hire less qualified welders and finishers since JB can make any frame look great.
4- Immediately tell people there is a 4 year waiting list for the custom bikes. Take deposits, create a long waiting list, and then sell them ready custom bikes to ride around for the next 4 yrs.
5- Since few people will actually be riding the "new" custom bikes no one will write anything negative and more important they will become mythical creatures.
6- Get a good graphics person to make t shirts, jerseys, shorts etc. This will be the main source of income.
7- Get a big booth at NAHBS.
Just a suggestion... .)

[54ny77]

Brooks Brothers pants can blow a hole if you fart too much.

Their quality--not like it used to be.... :banana:

Somehow I think my Ottrott will outlast the aftershocks of eating the biggest burrito on earth. :D

This is true, but what the best companies do is sell a lifestyle, vibe, feeling along with the product...like you are part of something. Think Rapha, Apple, Brooks Brothers...great products, but also something greater than that to buy into. .

[SPOKE]

I've purchased 7 new Serotta's since 1999. The last one being a Meivici LR in 2006. I'm a huge fan of the man and the brand! I also know that Ben has faced difficult times and has managed to overcome them. I'm confident he can do it again.

Many good ideas have been posted in this thread and I hope Ben can take some time ask read through them. This free advice is valuable and timely.

Best of luck to Ben and the gang at Serrota!

[CunegoFan]

From some of the suggestions and thoughts expressed here I have a few suggestions.
1- Serotta scraps the R&D department. No one really cares about innovation anyway.
2- Serotta selects one maybe two models and only makes those with limited options. Reduce the "hand" part of custom and pre-fabricate many of the tubes so they are ready to build.
3- Outsource the painting to Joe Bell because most frame builders use him and that seems to be what customers want. Serotta can hire less qualified welders and finishers since JB can make any frame look great.
4- Immediately tell people there is a 4 year waiting list for the custom bikes. Take deposits, create a long waiting list, and then sell them ready custom bikes to ride around for the next 4 yrs.
5- Since few people will actually be riding the "new" custom bikes no one will write anything negative and more important they will become mythical creatures.
6- Get a good graphics person to make t shirts, jerseys, shorts etc. This will be the main source of income.
7- Get a big booth at NAHBS.
Just a suggestion... .)
For this plan to really work you need to have taken a frame building class last year and have experience that consists of not much more than building three or four frames for friends. And a beautiful website.

[merlinmurph]

OK, time for a totally different take on the Serotta situation.

There are two different types of bike companies that seem to do OK.
First, there are the BIG GUYS. Frames are made offshore, and they put the whole bike package together. Even the smaller BIG GUYS are still big guys because they are directly competing with the really BIG GUYS. Lots of marketing, lots of expenses.

Then, there are the little guys, and I mean little. These are one or two man shops, highly regarded, making word of mouth sales, making all the frames they could possibly make. They have little to no marketing, few expenses, and manage to make a few bucks along the way.

Between these two is the dead zone, of which there are very few, if any, survivors. Typically, these are companies that did well as a very small operation and would like to make "the next step". First, there are more employees, which involves space, benefits, and all sorts of other expensive stuff. Then, there are the marketing costs, increasing from nothing to A LOT. So, that's two huge increases of expenses. In order to double the number of frames you sell, you end up spending 5 times as much as before.

From what I read, there are no economies of scale with handmade frames, so the cost of a frame will be the same, whether you're making 5 a month or 50. The one-man shops that make frames are extremely efficient and 10 more pairs of hands aren't going to make it any more efficient. You can't get 9 women pregnant and have a baby in a month. :D

I'm trying to think of any framebuilders that are in the dead zone. That was one of the downfalls of Merlin - they tried to get bigger. Maybe IF is there? How big is Moots? I'd like to hear of others.

Anyways, I think Serotta was in the dead zone, and between that and a bad economy, they met their match. When I saw their plan for the future - smaller operation, few retailers, direct sale - this is the first thing that came to mind.

Saying all that, I have incredible respect for the company, what they have done, the quality of their product, and I wish them luck in the future. I have no doubt that they will building frames for a long time, just with a different business model. Smaller can be better.

Back around 1990, I absolutely lusted over a Colorado sitting in the window of my LBS. I would just stand there and look at the tubes and think that it was absolutely the sexiest thing out there. Add in the fact that it was the classic Red/Yellow fade paint job, and I was hooked. I ended up getting a Colorado TG the next year.

That's my 2 cents,
Murph

[johnmdesigner]

You have some serious coin to spend on a serious bike. Which one will you buy?
One is hot and one is not.

[FlashUNC]

I've been harping on this point off and on for years. When I was racing, Serotta was a big name in my area. All the successful guys where rocking them so I eventually went that route as well. I did well on mine to. When guys are winning on them, even on the local level, they get noticed and the up and coming racers want them. The image gets ingrained. This is why even today I have a soft spot for Serotta. I don't own any now and as much as I would like, in my current stage of family life I can't justify spending that kind of $$ on a new one. Yes, there is nothing magic about them. There are a lot of nice alternatives that will get you from point A to point B just as fast and just as comfortably (assuming proper fit). But, you just aren't part of the legacy and name....the price of that has gone up considerably in recent years....priced it out of the reach of the younger crowd (=up and coming consumer base).

Bring back the cheaper race iron for the young racers. Bulk Collegiate and club deals like the past to rebuild the name with the younger crowd. I came in on the tail of that and it worked on me.





William


+1. Its not a short-term play by any stretch (and that very may well be what the business needs right now), but I think long-term this is something that should totally be considered.

When I started racing, you'd see Serottas in the group occasionally, and the brand still had very much a reputation as a high performance, high quality company. I think even today, the quality bit is as high as ever, if the frames I see for sale on the forum are any indication.

But I'll take my (admittedly used) Serotta into the shop, and the guys I know there jokingly refer to it as the "dental lawyer" bike. Its only meant in jest and they'll also mention in the same breath how they'd try to buy it off me if it was their size and I was interested in parting with it. But for good or ill -- I'd argue mostly ill -- the brand has come to signify that its only for stodgy, mid-life crisis riders.

I realize the Pro Tour game is something of a fool's errand when you're talking about paring back the business pretty dramatically, and a lot of this is due to an economy that is certainly outside the businesses' control. Serotta's never going to be Trek or Cannondale or Specialized, nor do I think Ben and company want to be. But I do think there are perception issues that have not helped, and some grassroots work would go a long way to correcting that "dental lawyer" notion.

[William]

Great take M&M! :cool:





W.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

My thinking is along the lines of merlinmurph. Moots and Vanilla/Speedvagen aside (and I don't really know their economics/profit-loss), it is really hard to compete profitably against one-man shops who do it just as good as Serotta can do it, without the extra overhead.

I would imagine Serotta has to figure out how to differentiate itself from these competitors, do something the one-man shops can't do.

[Pete Serotta]

Yes I am still SEROTTA biased to the core but there are I do not agree with.


Thanks for taking the time to read the forum and also to posts.


In regard to lugged steel, I wish as many folks who like them would buy them also....Ben would then still be making them. I have one or two in the basement and my most often ridden are the ti and HSG carbon. THere are some very nice others like MOOTS, ERICKSEN, SPECTRUM in my view also.


As to CARBON, I am very biased on HSG and like its ride above all other major brands I have ridden. My second choice is the PARLEE Z5 but it is about the same price as HSG.... My motto has always been ride the one that puts the biggest smile on your face.


As to TREK and SPECIALIZED - if they work for you and fit your budget - - go for them. My preference is still the above two in Carbon, Also a racing team will ride whatever sponsors them and also the frames are replaced or handed down pretty often.


Sponsoring teams there days cost major $$$$$$$$$. I do wish Serotta was still at RIDE THE ROCKIES, some of the Grand Fondos, and a few others


Serotta frames are bought by ALL ages and all professions.....Just look at the folks who use the forum. (as well as those that buy them,) Talk to the top dealers on who buys what....they are not the "older than dirt folks like me. And the older ones buy Trek, Specialized, etc -- - just as younger folks do,


as to the number of used frame sold. Serotta has been in business for almost 40 years (SO there are more frames for sale. - - most of serotta steel I have seen are over 10 years old that are being bought and sold.). Many of the brands can not have as many for sale for they are "past" appeal and some past wanting to ride. .......Show me a 10 year old from a major brand that has sold in same price range,,,,Yes there are a few - - but not on the SEROTTA forum where SEROTTA is here. Additionally we have not banned non SEROTTA from forum for I firmly believe that few brands can match SEROTTA over time. YEAH I am not looking to get into an argument and have always believed that you should buy what you want!!! And I have been doing this and still do it!! :D :beer:

At an OPEN house we will have wine and beer for a discussion the night before on me!!!! PETE

AND MOST DEFINITELY HAVE TWO SEROTTA OPEN HOUSES PER YEAR :D :D

[Smiley]

Serotta's business plan WAS to compete directly with the BIG Boys in retail shops.......that aint going to happen anymore except for maybe 6 hand picked shops and you guys know who these guys are.

Distribution of high end bikes via the web has changed the way business is done. methinks that expanding the Fit Lab concept to and thru selected fitters maybe worth a try. Better web advertising and presence is another and lastly from my point of view Serotta has WAY too many models and sub models. Narrow down your offerings and if you offer a steel frame make it price point sensative and make it too good to pass up.

Serotta at this point should be a Carbon fabricator since they are totally vertically integrated for this material. And they do do carbon right and they will tell you they make more money on carbon bikes versus Titanium today.

[oldpotatoe]

OK, time for a totally different take on the Serotta situation.

There are two different types of bike companies that seem to do OK.
First, there are the BIG GUYS. Frames are made offshore, and they put the whole bike package together. Even the smaller BIG GUYS are still big guys because they are directly competing with the really BIG GUYS. Lots of marketing, lots of expenses.

Then, there are the little guys, and I mean little. These are one or two man shops, highly regarded, making word of mouth sales, making all the frames they could possibly make. They have little to no marketing, few expenses, and manage to make a few bucks along the way.

Between these two is the dead zone, of which there are very few, if any, survivors. Typically, these are companies that did well as a very small operation and would like to make "the next step". First, there are more employees, which involves space, benefits, and all sorts of other expensive stuff. Then, there are the marketing costs, increasing from nothing to A LOT. So, that's two huge increases of expenses. In order to double the number of frames you sell, you end up spending 5 times as much as before.

From what I read, there are no economies of scale with handmade frames, so the cost of a frame will be the same, whether you're making 5 a month or 50. The one-man shops that make frames are extremely efficient and 10 more pairs of hands aren't going to make it any more efficient. You can't get 9 women pregnant and have a baby in a month. :D

I'm trying to think of any framebuilders that are in the dead zone. That was one of the downfalls of Merlin - they tried to get bigger. Maybe IF is there? How big is Moots? I'd like to hear of others.

Anyways, I think Serotta was in the dead zone, and between that and a bad economy, they met their match. When I saw their plan for the future - smaller operation, few retailers, direct sale - this is the first thing that came to mind.

Saying all that, I have incredible respect for the company, what they have done, the quality of their product, and I wish them luck in the future. I have no doubt that they will building frames for a long time, just with a different business model. Smaller can be better.

Back around 1990, I absolutely lusted over a Colorado sitting in the window of my LBS. I would just stand there and look at the tubes and think that it was absolutely the sexiest thing out there. Add in the fact that it was the classic Red/Yellow fade paint job, and I was hooked. I ended up getting a Colorado TG the next year.

That's my 2 cents,
Murph


Moots and Waterford are in that 'zone'. 1200-2000 frames per year, small operations. Less than 10 people, all in including administration. Both having banner years.

Moots does titanium only(no steel,no blends, no carbon) and Waterford does steel only(no ti, no blends, no carbon).

I think Serotta has tried to be everything to all riders, has followed in materials, thinks they must to be competitive, but has priced many out of the market. A Mevici isn't 4 times better than a Tarmac. Sorry, it just isn't.

Originally Steel, saw ti being made, made a ti, saw carbon rear ends, made one of those, saw blends, made one of those, saw carbon, made one of those. Think they forgot what made them succesfull, steel, titanium.

AND if they want to continue with the 'hand made for you' theme, they MUST keep a strong dealer network. Good dealers are going to tell Serotta to pound sand when a person comes in with a bike bought direct in a town where there is a viable dealer. If the dealer isn't representing Serotta well, find out why and put some pressure on that dealer. What happened to ProPeloton when they changed ownership. Serotta said, if ya want to keep it, make these changes'. They dropped Serotta for delivery delays, poor QC, poor communication, etc. BUT ProPeloton, as a bike 'studio', was perfect for Serotta and Serotta pooched it.

Find good dealers who fit Serotta's philosophy but direct/hybrid model is a mistake, IMHO.

[rugbysecondrow]

Moots and Waterford are in that 'zone'. 1200-2000 frames per year, small operations. Less than 10 people, all in including administration. Both having banner years.

Moots does titanium only(no steel,no blends, no carbon) and Waterford does steel only(no ti, no blends, no carbon).

I think Serotta has tried to be everything to all riders, has followed in materials, thinks they must to be competitive, but has priced many out of the market. A Mevici isn't 4 times better than a Tarmac. Sorry, it just isn't.

Originally Steel, saw ti being made, made a ti, saw carbon rear ends, made one of those, saw blends, made one of those, saw carbon, made one of those. Think they forgot what made them succesfull, steel, titanium.

I think this is where there is economies of scale referred to earlier come into play. Tubes, tooling, skillsets etc and more interchangable. Material sourcing, pricing and receiving is likely more competetive as well. Square foot space is decreased because you remove redundant machinary, same with maintainance costs and upgrades. I am sure there are others as well.

[fourflys]

re: Pete's post...

I like the way you roll Pete... I lament the day I sold that Ti Concours... I will have another Serotta one day...

Good Luck to Ben and the boys!

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Steel, saw ti being made, made a ti, saw carbon rear ends, made one of those, saw blends, made one of those, saw carbon, made one of those. Think they forgot what made them succesfull, steel, titanium.


the single biggest fork in the road came when they parted ways with race team sponsorship atmo. all through the 7-11 and coors light years (as well as the weight watchers women's team iirc...), the brand had the world by the short hairs and had a place in the trade that no one else occupied. i don't know (or care about) the fiscal back story, but their ties to racing set serotta apart from all others who were anywhere near them, size-wise. leaving the high profile liaison they had with the pro circuit runs parallel with many of the issues they have been resolving since, the core one being what this thread is about.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:cool: :) :)

[laupsi]

intresting tid bit:

major exclusive automobile brands - Porche, Rolls Royce, Bently are not closing factories or downsizing. In fact Rolls Royce is growing and doing quite well and chooses its labor from a very pricy supply market as does the other two.

some research into their marketing, strategic planning and investment could shed some valuable light to BS and Co.

[William]

the single biggest fork in the road came when they parted ways with race team sponsorship atmo. all through the 7-11 and coors light years (as well as the weight watchers women's team iirc...), the brand had the world by the short hairs and had a place in the trade that no one else occupied. i don't know (or care about) the fiscal back story, but their ties to racing set serotta apart from all others who were anywhere near them, size-wise. leaving the high profile liaison they had with the pro circuit runs parallel with many of the issues they have been resolving since, the core one being what this thread is about.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:cool: :) :)


"e" atmo.




William

[Climb01742]

the single biggest fork in the road came when they parted ways with race team sponsorship atmo. all through the 7-11 and coors light years (as well as the weight watchers women's team iirc...), the brand had the world by the short hairs and had a place in the trade that no one else occupied. i don't know (or care about) the fiscal back story, but their ties to racing set serotta apart from all others who were anywhere near them, size-wise. leaving the high profile liaison they had with the pro circuit runs parallel with many of the issues they have been resolving since, the core one being what this thread is about.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:cool: :) :)

i know that richie races cross out of love, but that association (and his team and its results and all the real-deal mud-spattered photos) give his bikes an authentic vibe that no amount of dentists or lawyers could erode. and richie is a master keeper of his brand cred (said with total seriousness and admiration) and he does it on a shoe-string (or is it a twizzler string?) budget. not all woes can be laid at the feet of 'no budget'. some dudes kept their eyes on the prize. some didn't.

[crownjewelwl]

intresting tid bit:

major exclusive automobile brands - Porche, Rolls Royce, Bently are not closing factories or downsizing. In fact Rolls Royce is growing and doing quite well and chooses its labor from a very pricy supply market as does the other two.

some research into their marketing, strategic planning and investment could shed some valuable light to BS and Co.

I'm not sure that is a great analogy. Porsches, RRs, and Bentleys cost real cheese. So the super rich will always be buying. Much demand right now is being driven by India and China.

The market for bikes (however high end) isn't the same.

[Germany_chris]

Moots and Waterford are in that 'zone'. 1200-2000 frames per year, small operations. Less than 10 people, all in including administration. Both having banner years.

Moots does titanium only(no steel,no blends, no carbon) and Waterford does steel only(no ti, no blends, no carbon).

I think Serotta has tried to be everything to all riders, has followed in materials, thinks they must to be competitive, but has priced many out of the market. A Mevici isn't 4 times better than a Tarmac. Sorry, it just isn't.

Originally Steel, saw ti being made, made a ti, saw carbon rear ends, made one of those, saw blends, made one of those, saw carbon, made one of those. Think they forgot what made them succesfull, steel, titanium.

+1

and Calfee/Crumpton pretty much have the custom Carbon

Moots=Ti for most

and there is so many in the crowded steel market.

High end works when it's laser directed...like the above Rolls Royce comment

Mr. Sachs makes Sachs steel bikes..period..brand identity. The same with Vanilla steel ISP can't miss it..

Personally I'll always think Serotta and Ti..

Maybe though they'd make headway with a more "entry level" frame $1500 Tig Steel...

If I were Mr. Serotta I'd focus on carbon..Serotta has the plant in I believe california..I'd probably relocate out there and be Mr. Carbon.

[laupsi]

I'm not sure that is a great analogy. Porsches, RRs, and Bentleys cost real cheese. So the super rich will always be buying. Much demand right now is being driven by India and China.

The market for bikes (however high end) isn't the same.

good point and I cannot speak for who the customer base is, although China is soon to confront its own downward spiral. India??? must have missed that success story. low wages, even lower income per capita spending per household, that's what I know about India.

I do believe there are business models that do well at the high end price point and the demand for these products is inelastic for the most part. also their products are not made by cheap labor nor do they use average or standard parts in their assemblies.

what is missing, and I by no means know the complete answer, is "The Strategic Plan". simply hoping rich folks will buy your product is not enough and going to an even higher price point is not the answer.

the folks w/the $$$ still have it and are spending it. the business must find out why and capitalize on it.

[Ti Designs]

i know that richie races cross out of love, but that association (and his team and its results and all the real-deal mud-spattered photos) give his bikes an authentic vibe that no amount of dentists or lawyers could erode.

Once again, all marketing. That "authentic vibe" may sell to the dentists and lawyers, but real bike racers can't wait 5 years for a bike.

[laupsi]

Once again, all marketing. That "authentic vibe" may sell to the dentists and lawyers, but real bike racers can't wait 5 years for a bike.

racers for the most part, and I mean the vast majority of racers, in this area, Atlantic Cost, do not race on Serotta bikes. I know because I raced on a Serotta bike for 12 years, from Virginia to NY and only noticed a handful of Serotta frames in my time.

I would go further and add that for the most part those racers who did race on them were on sponsored frames.

.

[e-RICHIE]

Once again, all marketing. That "authentic vibe" may sell to the dentists and lawyers, but real bike racers can't wait 5 years for a bike.

not only can't they wait, but they don't wait atmo.
don't personalize this; i'm a ben fan and have admired him since the 1970s.
his was the business model that changed here.
and from a distance, that appeared to hurt the brand.

my little race sponsorship effort, which began in 1981 or so, has always consumed about a month's worth of production each year but it certainly continues to make the other 11 months more enjoyable. serotta's math and model may have been different when it had ties to the sport, but cutting the cord can be linked to everything discussed in this thread and the one that disappeared a few days ago. i am not suggesting they do an about face, only that peter's post above (and my reply to it) speaks to the time-line here.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
;) :D :D

[William]

racers for the most part, and I mean the vast majority of racers, in this area, Atlantic Cost, do not race on Serotta bikes. I know because I raced on a Serotta bike for 12 years, from Virginia to NY and only noticed a handful of Serotta frames in my time.

I would go further and add that for the most part those racers who did race on them were on sponsored frames

I was looking at the Cross Nats and I can only say I saw one person riding the Big "S".




W.

[laupsi]

my point, racers are not the niche Serotta ever had nor is it the market that works w/his marketing or w/his brand

[rpm]

Serotta at this point should be a Carbon fabricator since they are totally vertically integrated for this material. And they do do carbon right and they will tell you they make more money on carbon bikes versus Titanium today.

+1. This makes sense to me. There aren't that many people doing full custom carbon. If they could get at least one model down to the Crumpton/Parlee price level, they could do well.

[sg8357]

and Waterford does steel only(no ti, no blends, no carbon).


Waterford did build a Ti Heron prototype, but Waterford decided to stay
out of Ti. Waterford's building is the old Paramount factory, paid for back
in Ignaz's day. Waterford also builds contract bikes for Rivendell, Boulder etc.

[deechee]

I'm sitting here thinking, how many people have more relative experience in custom bikes than Ben? The list of people that have a demonstrated history of making things work is pretty short...

Having been a member of this forum for a few years I understand how involved Ben has been, yet barely any of this information is readily available on the Serotta web page. I'm not marketing person but I think this information could be better presented. Similar threads have appeared in the past and I think we can agree the communication from Serotta can improve immensely. For instance even though I'm on this forum regularly, I had NO idea the HSG was now available in both Race and Performance geometry until recently. I had always though the HSG was a race bike only; wasn't this how it was introduced?

When I bought my first Serotta I had never heard of the brand and pretty much went with my trust in Paul Levine. I tried to look up information on the web page at the time and didn't find that much information. I enjoyed looking at the forum to see the many paint options people took - it was much more effective than looking at the 1990's paint program; photographs of the bikes in daylight are much more appealing to me. The Trek Project1 customization applet is something worth comparing to.

I know its been beaten to death but I have to agree the price of entry to Serotta has gotten quite stiff. If it had not been for my first CIII, I would never have spent 4k$ on a new CDA for my gf. Even after years of telling her how much I loved my Serotta(s), it was only when she got her butt on her own Serotta that she understood the difference. Word of mouth only goes so far.

The forum is very important to show the large fan base of Serotta. I think there are a lot of careful shoppers out there who look for reviews on products on amazon (so much for epinions haha), and the forum acts as a method to show real people respect and buy into this brand. I think more work could be put in the facebook and twitter pages to leverage Serotta's presence on the net.

I hope Serotta restructures itself successfully so I can keep buying them!

[Ti Designs]

not only can't they wait, but they don't wait atmo.

Are you saying that racers don't buy your frames or that racers don't wait for your frames or are we just talking about the pre-race bathrooms?

[onsight512]

FWIW...

A year ago I didn't owned one old mtn bike. I got interested in cycling late last year and now have three bikes, two of which are Serotta's. They're Serotta's because of this forum. I saw this place mentioned over on rbr and came over to check it out. It's a great place with a bunch of wonderful people.
My thought was that since this forum fosters a lot of the things that appeal to me, I ought to be buying their bikes when I have the choice.

Anyway, I wish Ben all the best going forward, whatever that direction may be.

[oldpotatoe]

Waterford did build a Ti Heron prototype, but Waterford decided to stay
out of Ti. Waterford's building is the old Paramount factory, paid for back
in Ignaz's day. Waterford also builds contract bikes for Rivendell, Boulder etc.

Actually Richard and Mark Mueller bought the factory early 90s when Schwinn became a MTB, no road, company, when bought by Scott Sports Group.

[54ny77]

i had good fortune to ogle this serotta in my living room for a week or so awhile back (couple years ago).

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_0555.jpg

pretty famous american racer named andy-something got to ride on it over on some race in france held during the summer months... :banana:

to say i coveted and worshipped the thing is an understatement. history, tradition--you name it. i can remember reading magazines and seeing the photos of this bike (and others like it) under the legs of many famous american racers.

of course the time and place of that era is over, given the way of the world today. but to e-ritchie's point about tradition and history, is it important for serotta to build the brand among younger generations so as to help them understand what it's all about? how do you go about doing that? or is it a waste of time?

in other words, there's only so many rich guys who can afford a $9k frame before stress or their wives expedite their departure from this life. do you focus on selling as many bikes as you can to that demographic before they kick the bucket, or do you build the brand anew? is this the time to do it?

I was looking at the Cross Nats and I can only say I saw one person riding the Big "S".

W.

[ludedude]

In essence, given the high cost of a Serotta or an equivalent custom frame, the demographic is pinned to the "lawyers and dentists." No amount of appeal to the younger generation is going to change that. No money no materialistic dream (ie a Serotta bike). Period. Perhaps those in the younger generation will buy from Serotta 5-15 years in the future after becoming "lawyers and dentists."

[palincss]

Is a Serotta really more expensive than a Trek Madone? I see people from all walks of life with those on club rides, and only 1 that I know of is a dentist, and he works for the government.

[Nooch]

i had good fortune to ogle this serotta in my living room for a week or so awhile back (couple years ago).

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_0555.jpg

pretty famous american racer named andy-something got to ride on it over on some race in france held during the summer months... :banana:

to say i coveted and worshipped the thing is an understatement. history, tradition--you name it. i can remember reading magazines and seeing the photos of this bike (and others like it) under the legs of many famous american racers.

of course the time and place of that era is over, given the way of the world today. but to e-ritchie's point about tradition and history, is it important for serotta to build the brand among younger generations so as to help them understand what it's all about? how do you go about doing that? or is it a waste of time?



Ya know... I'm pretty sure e-Richie sponsors a cross team -- and he's a one man outfit. There's still a way for small builders to support elite-amatuer level racers in the states -- and that's what got us all hot for Serotta in the first place, isn't it? Seeing the bikes under America's top talent at the time, racing here, there, and everywhere?

Is serotta sponsoring a Pro-Tour team?? Heck no. But it shouldn't be so out of reach for something grassroots.

[e-RICHIE]

Are you saying that racers don't buy your frames or that racers don't wait for your frames or are we just talking about the pre-race bathrooms?

my business and clientele aren't fodder for this forum, but this thread is about a paradigm shift that must have occurred to bring about the recent news discussed here. i don't know if you are on a fishing expedition or trying to put words in my mouth (iow, attach meaning to posts that weren't part of them...). but my replies here were not about the bicycle serotta makes, the material used, or even about the clients; it was about how the brand was perceived in its halcyon days atmo. the company's ties to the sport, whether rooted in a marketing decision or simply because ben thought the frames should be seen and tested in that arena - these ties ended after the coors light era. and when the cord was cut, so went the caché that was long attached to the serotta logo. different attachments came and when afterward, but none so strong or useful as a marketing tool as when he was a bicycle supplier to these teams, to campagnolo's support efforts, and to other related entities.

my comments have no ties to what i do in my shop or what i want for myself in my business. mine are observations based in the years that all of the cats from the 1970s ran along side one another. ben's place at the top of the effbuilder food chain was something nobody else had or could achieve.

ps

arrange disorder

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
;) ;) ;)
:D :D :o

[veloduffer]

Is a Serotta really more expensive than a Trek Madone? I see people from all walks of life with those on club rides, and only 1 that I know of is a dentist, and he works for the government.


There are several levels of Madone bikes at various price points. They also have two different geometries for their higher end Madones (race vs sport), like Serotta's race vs performance. I believe only the 6-series Madones are made in Wisconsin.

Specialized has their Tarmac, Venge and Roubaix lines for CF road bikes.

[William]

my point, racers are not the niche Serotta ever had ...

Not true. Check the history.


...nor is it the market that works w/his marketing or w/his brand

That is correct for today....and the last number of years.




William

[benb]

20 something guys aren't signing up to buy eRitchie's bikes because of the cross team.. but they still respect him & his brand more then they do Serotta because he is out there and his team is out there.

If you want to go after a doctor/lawyer market you can't capture tomorrow's lawyer & doctor cyclists if you're not sponsoring racing today.. people with the money to spend in 10-20 years will be looking to some other brand that was in the news when they were young and couldn't afford said bike.

I've never heard anyone say a Sachs is a doctor/lawyer bike even though a lot of the guys who actually have them likely make that type of money.

[Pete Serotta]

I know some who have a racing heritage and have raced Sachs - like Richard's bike. It is like a Porsche 911 R to me, Folks ride a SACHs because they want one, THey are passionate riders but just are Serotta ones - not necessarily a MD or a DDS either.

Many of those ride TRI events and neither of Ser or Sachs are heavily into Tri bikes

THe CSI to me, in having ridden both is like a 911 S. and the SACHS a 911 R Yes I only have one bike :D :D :D They are close but different and lust of both by me.

Additionally, as you know, teams are somewhat sponsored and that cost money for bike makers. In my uneducated view, Sachs spends his personal money in loving and participating.

Richard (ATMO-e-RICHIE) thanks for hanging with us and contributing here.


Your friend, PETE


Are you saying that racers don't buy your frames or that racers don't wait for your frames or are we just talking about the pre-race bathrooms?

[Lifelover]

my business and clientele aren't fodder for this forum, ....


Nor should Serotta's be, but too many people can't help themselves. You included.

[e-RICHIE]

Nor should Serotta's be, but too many people can't help themselves. You included.


you're probably right.
this thread and all like it should be banned from the internet forever atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :D

[Ti Designs]

you're probably right.


ATYO???

[buck-50]

my point, racers are not the niche Serotta ever had nor is it the market that works w/his marketing or w/his brand
The number of treks raced compared with the total number of treks sold is probably so small as to be statistically insignificant.

But Lance sure sold a butt-load of treks.

Most people don't race, period.

But they buy the mags, they read the reviews and they see the race results, and if lance can do that well on a Madone, maybe I need to check one out? Joseba Beloki races on a freaking Giant? Really? I thought giant just made crap bikes- maybe there's more to giant than i thought?

(BTW that's exactly how I ended up on a Giant TCR in ONCE livery)

[Fixed]

Once again, all marketing. That "authentic vibe" may sell to the dentists and lawyers, but real bike racers can't wait 5 years for a bike.
Senpai and kōhai
r.s. and ti.d
imho
cheers

[Jeff N.]

I believe it would be in Serotta's best interest to start dealing DIRECTLY with the consumer. No bike shop involvement, unless the consumer feels the need (doesn't know his numbers, etc.). Jeff N.

[jr59]

I believe it would be in Serotta's best interest to start dealing DIRECTLY with the consumer. No bike shop involvement, unless the consumer feels the need (doesn't know his numbers, etc.). Jeff N.

This would improve the profit margin!

[Fivethumbs]

I've got stacks of old cycling mags - Bicycle Guide, Cycling, Winning, Bicycing, etc. from the mid-80s through the mid-90s. Pretty much every mag has a smattering of photos depicting Serottas in races and advertisements (some are not even ads for Serottas) on the 7-11 and Coors Light teams. Around the time I joined this forum I could see the Sierra Nevada / Kodak Team racing on Serottas in magazines and the web. Today, I only see Serotta on the Serotta forum. Like it or not, Sponsorship sells stuff. Why do car and motorcycle mfrs. sponsor racing teams? Why do musical instrument mfrs. sponsor artists? Why does every X-Game sport product mfr. sponsor an X-Game athlete? Because it sells stuff! Like it or not, people want to have, ride, use, play with, the same stuff the stars use.

[spacemen3]

This reminds me a bit of the decline of Silicon Graphics. For awhile they made the coolest computer hardware around in all sorts of funky colors. I was proud to sit at a desk and program these machines that cost more than I made in a year. Sadly, the company eventually capitulated to vastly cheaper personal computers with increasingly capable chips and graphics cards.

Similarly, walking into a bike shop these days, it's hard not be impressed by the quality of mass-produced road bikes. They might not match the craftsmanship or cache of a Serotta, but you can't deny that they're very capable machines — which makes the high premium to owning a Serotta all that much harder to justify.

I love my three old, steel Serottas, and I hope Ben and Co. weather the storm!

[jr59]

I've got stacks of old cycling mags - Bicycle Guide, Cycling, Winning, Bicycing, etc. from the mid-80s through the mid-90s. Pretty much every mag has a smattering of photos depicting Serottas in races and advertisements (some are not even ads for Serottas) on the 7-11 and Coors Light teams. Around the time I joined this forum I could see the Sierra Nevada / Kodak Team racing on Serottas in magazines and the web. Today, I only see Serotta on the Serotta forum. Like it or not, Sponsorship sells stuff. Why do car and motorcycle mfrs. sponsor racing teams? Why do musical instrument mfrs. sponsor artists? Why does every X-Game sport product mfr. sponsor an X-Game athlete? Because it sells stuff! Like it or not, people want to have, ride, use, play with, the same stuff the stars use.

I think not!
Some here are using the auto analogy. Win on Sunday sells on Monday.

Not so fast my friend, if this is the case please explain Toyota or Honda. You say those are lower end cars, ok, how about Mercedes Benz? They have not been in racing in a LONG time. Also besides the North American market, most the rest of the world with MB are trucks and taxis.
MB controls their brand very well here as a HIGH $$$ auto.

I really hope Serotta finds their way. I love their bikes.
But their marketing confuses me. :confused: To many styles, to close together, not info on their web site, it's not as easy to use as lets say IF.

Ben S. is such a good guy. I REALLY want for the co to do well, but I think, the SS plant is doomed. I wish it wasn't so.

[Ti Designs]

I believe it would be in Serotta's best interest to start dealing DIRECTLY with the consumer. No bike shop involvement, unless the consumer feels the need (doesn't know his numbers, etc.). Jeff N.

This is a scenario that's being put to the test with a number of frame builders. The question is if the added profit per unit can make up for the widespread sales of their network of dealers. From my years in retail I've learned one thing, things don't sell themselves no matter how good they are. If we bring in a bike line and half the sales staff is behind it, it sells. If it has one sales person behind it we have close-outs at the end of the year. It's about getting that enthusiasm directly to the consumer. Can a central sales office and fit center do that? The members of this forum know about Serotta, so it's an unfair test. The random consumer looking for a bike is probably going to find a shop. High end builders have an advantage in this scenario, the customer probably rides and at least knows the name.

[Tyler Evans]

If I were Ben, I'd be reading this thread.

[oldpotatoe]

I believe it would be in Serotta's best interest to start dealing DIRECTLY with the consumer. No bike shop involvement, unless the consumer feels the need (doesn't know his numbers, etc.). Jeff N.

If ya think Serotta is almost unknown now, go direct and he will disappear. Ya gotta have a sales staff singing any frame/bicycle's praises. If he is direct and somebody goes into a bike shop and asks about it, they will get the same answer I give about Dean, "really don't know much about them, good or bad".

Some bike shops will give the 'who?' answer, some will bad mouth it but in any case, direct is not the way to go for a brand like Serotta, IMHO.

[William]

I think not!
Some here are using the auto analogy. Win on Sunday sells on Monday.

Not so fast my friend, if this is the case please explain Toyota or Honda. You say those are lower end cars, ok, how about Mercedes Benz? They have not been in racing in a LONG time. Also besides the North American market, most the rest of the world with MB are trucks and taxis.
MB controls their brand very well here as a HIGH $$$ auto.



Toyota
http://www.toyotaracing.com/#oct-11-2011

Mercedes
http://www.mclaren.com/
http://www3.mercedes-gp.com/en/#/category/home/
http://www3.mercedes-benz.com/mbcom_v4/us/motorsport/en.html
http://dtm.mercedes-benz.com/en




William

[Chance]

I'm sitting here thinking, how many people have more relative experience in custom bikes than Ben? The list of people that have a demonstrated history of making things work is pretty short...
Perhaps but experience is not enough.

Just ask around and see how many Americans in Mr. Serotta’s age group have been phased out of their jobs even though they had great experience. It may be unfortunate but it seems that today’s world is driven more by image than substance. And perhaps even more so by newcomers who replace the highly “experienced and skilled” old guy at half the salary. The world is changing so quickly that it often makes middle age employees obsolete. And if not obsolete their experience doesn’t support a much higher salary.

Can a bike company be that different? It’s doubtful that experience alone counts for much if cost to manufacture is twice as high.

[rwsaunders]

If I were Ben, I'd be reading this thread.

I give him credit for letting the comments flow.

[Smiley]

Whatever the end result, Serotta will not do business as usual, the model will change and the delivery method will change. It probably will be a smaller company with a more focused product niche.
I like all of you wish Ben and company the best in these hard times.

[Fixed]

Whatever the end result, Serotta will not do business as usual, the model will change and the delivery method will change. It probably will be a smaller company with a more focused product niche.
I like all of you wish Ben and company the best in these hard times.
+1
cheers

[fourflys]

well, the only thing I will say is it would sure be a loss if Serotta decided not to keep making a frame that more people could afford like the Colorado... $2500 certainly isn't entry level, but at least it's attainable for many...

[Louis]

If I were Ben, I'd be reading this thread.

All he has to do is figure out what half is spot-on and what half is bs.

[Peter P.]

I'm glad Richard Sachs chimed in with his business perspective and history in the game.

He's right; racing sponsorship is what plants the seed in the consumer's mind. Serotta dropped it and never came back.

I can certainly understand why they stopped racing sponsorship, if the reason is the cost.

Of course, it's unrealistic to think Serotta could afford to sponsor a ProTour team which would give them the exposure they'd want for their overseas markets. They probably need that amount of exposure to sell the 5k units mentioned in one of the newsprint articles, but the big names are doling out cash in addition to bicycles and there's no way Serotta can compete with that.

I wonder how much return Serotta would get from sponsoring a top-tier domestic team. They would likely have to do so in several overseas markets as well to creat sufficient demand as well.

Serotta would have had to have gone one of two ways; sponsor with their highest offerings (full carbon) but that may have put them well out of reach of even the deepest racer pockets, or sponsor with their more affordable Ti or even steel offerings to show the public what's achievable race results-wise, using more affordable materials.

Also, the big manufacturers have embraced monocoque construction frames, whose curves and shapes change every year, following the spin of their marketing departments. Builders in that "dead zone" mentioned in an earlier post, which now includes Serotta, don't have the technology or resources to play in the monocoque sandbox (regardless of the uber expensive Meivici) so they're left offering the "same old same old" lug and tube construction. We all know all those fancy shapes are not that important but the advertising has won over the people, at the expense of Serotta, et al.

Serotta has a great history and I wish Ben and company the most success in retaining the brand but I honestly don't know if they can pull it off.

I thought they might leverage their composites factory and begin to offer carbon forks either on a custom basis to custom builders or stock forks under another name-mixing the Serotta branded fork (a bike brand) with any frame is a tough sell, marketing-wise. I really think the market would jump on a quality, American made fork. Perhaps they could also manufacture carbon rear stay assemblies to builders, and even frame tubes. But here again, the foreign offerings just kill domestic product because of the cheaper labor. Sub-contract work might be another avenue.

[dbrk]

I don't post much anymore; I've said about all I have to say about bikes, which should be evident from the sheer number of my past posts. But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is. And from what I read about the plan to stick to custom fit and staying the course competing with euro carbon, more of the same will follow. That's a shame.

1. Custom Fit will be--- and has been--- the principal reason I have abandoned Serotta. Too many bikes look awful, too many hands in the pie, from dealers to "fitters."

Solution: Put up a size chart, explain why most people fit the chart, offer very limited custom. Colnago, Pinarello, Cervelo have never had to do custom to sell bikes.

2. Too many models, no identity. I would have argued when the CSi with steel fork was the flagship that this is the best riding bike Serotta makes. Okay, you can have a carbon fork.

Solution: Four models, CSi, a welded alternative for price point (CdA), Ottrott, and Legend. End of models. No attempts at touring or this or that, much less have it your way. Have it your way has been a debacle. Instead, honest bikes and a case for the simple superiority of the complete outcome.

3. Complete bikes alone will compete with shop brands.

Solution: Simple kits with few options and some nice matching stems, saddles, then direct sales and dealers who can hook you up. (Dealers need to make a dime to make it worth the effort not to prefer their floor stock.)

I suppose no one should care what I think. Much less Serotta. If this post throws me off for good, I'm good with that. Take care all, I truly wish Serotta well.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't post much anymore; I've said about all I have to say about bikes, which should be evident from the sheer number of my past posts. But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is. And from what I read about the plan to stick to custom fit and staying the course competing with euro carbon, more of the same will follow. That's a shame.

1. Custom Fit will be--- and has been--- the principal reason I have abandoned Serotta. Too many bikes look awful, too many hands in the pie, from dealers to "fitters."

Solution: Put up a size chart, explain why most people fit the chart, offer very limited custom. Colnago, Pinarello, Cervelo have never had to do custom to sell bikes.

2. Too many models, no identity. I would have argued when the CSi with steel fork was the flagship that this is the best riding bike Serotta makes. Okay, you can have a carbon fork.

Solution: Four models, CSi, a welded alternative for price point (CdA), Ottrott, and Legend. End of models. No attempts at touring or this or that, much less have it your way. Have it your way has been a debacle. Instead, honest bikes and a case for the simple superiority of the complete outcome.

3. Complete bikes alone will compete with shop brands.

Solution: Simple kits with few options and some nice matching stems, saddles, then direct sales and dealers who can hook you up. (Dealers need to make a dime to make it worth the effort not to prefer their floor stock.)

I suppose no one should care what I think. Much less Serotta. If this post throws me off for good, I'm good with that. Take care all, I truly wish Serotta well.

Your suggestions along with others point out Ben's issues. Well said but I think you said it all when you said, "But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is. And from what I read about the plan to stick to custom fit and staying the course competing with euro carbon, more of the same will follow. That's a shame. "

I say make others compete with you, don't compete with them. He is competing with 'them'.

[92degrees]

Not so fast my friend, if this is the case please explain Toyota or Honda. You say those are lower end cars, ok, how about Mercedes Benz? They have not been in racing in a LONG time. Also besides the North American market, most the rest of the world with MB are trucks and taxis.
MB controls their brand very well here as a HIGH $$$ auto.


MB is trying to own "luxury." That's their brand promise.

BMW tries to own "performance" -- as in "Ultimate Driving Machine."

One is deep in racing and one is not. Serotta was one, and is now the other.

[fourflys]

MB is trying to own "luxury." That's their brand promise.

BMW tries to own "performance" -- as in "Ultimate Driving Machine."

One is deep in racing and one is not.

are you not familiar with the DTM (German Touring Cars) series? or the McLaren F1 cars? take a look at the new SLS... I'd say MB is into racing...

[eltonbalch]

Similarly, walking into a bike shop these days, it's hard not be impressed by the quality of mass-produced road bikes. They might not match the craftsmanship or cache of a Serotta, but you can't deny that they're very capable machines — which makes the high premium to owning a Serotta all that much harder to justify.

This is the 800 pound gorilla that Ben is wrestling with. I own both a Trek Madone 5.2 and a Serotta HSG; as nice as it is, the HSG is NOT 3 X "better" than the Madone. I love my Serotta and I wish Ben the best, but mass produced bikes from the likes of Trek and Specialized are overwhelming the market with some very nice products for the money.

[rnhood]

I don't post much anymore; I've said about all I have to say about bikes, which should be evident from the sheer number of my past posts. But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is. And from what I read about the plan to stick to custom fit and staying the course competing with euro carbon, more of the same will follow. That's a shame.

1. Custom Fit will be--- and has been--- the principal reason I have abandoned Serotta. Too many bikes look awful, too many hands in the pie, from dealers to "fitters."

Solution: Put up a size chart, explain why most people fit the chart, offer very limited custom. Colnago, Pinarello, Cervelo have never had to do custom to sell bikes.

2. Too many models, no identity. I would have argued when the CSi with steel fork was the flagship that this is the best riding bike Serotta makes. Okay, you can have a carbon fork.

Solution: Four models, CSi, a welded alternative for price point (CdA), Ottrott, and Legend. End of models. No attempts at touring or this or that, much less have it your way. Have it your way has been a debacle. Instead, honest bikes and a case for the simple superiority of the complete outcome.

3. Complete bikes alone will compete with shop brands.

Solution: Simple kits with few options and some nice matching stems, saddles, then direct sales and dealers who can hook you up. (Dealers need to make a dime to make it worth the effort not to prefer their floor stock.)

I suppose no one should care what I think. Much less Serotta. If this post throws me off for good, I'm good with that. Take care all, I truly wish Serotta well.

Its too bad you don't post more here....too bad for us. Your words (comments, opinions, depth of knowledge, whatever) have always appeared full of insight and common sense. An aggregate of education, years of passionate biking, , and close relationships with many builders and icons over the years I'm sure.

And by the way, I very much agree with your post.

[eddief]

even though you may have an opinion about carbon, it has such a place in today's bike world. so i agree with all you said with the addition of a killer karbon offering too!

i hope the forum does not get nailed by a cost cutting measure.

I don't post much anymore; I've said about all I have to say about bikes, which should be evident from the sheer number of my past posts. But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is. And from what I read about the plan to stick to custom fit and staying the course competing with euro carbon, more of the same will follow. That's a shame.

1. Custom Fit will be--- and has been--- the principal reason I have abandoned Serotta. Too many bikes look awful, too many hands in the pie, from dealers to "fitters."

Solution: Put up a size chart, explain why most people fit the chart, offer very limited custom. Colnago, Pinarello, Cervelo have never had to do custom to sell bikes.

2. Too many models, no identity. I would have argued when the CSi with steel fork was the flagship that this is the best riding bike Serotta makes. Okay, you can have a carbon fork.

Solution: Four models, CSi, a welded alternative for price point (CdA), Ottrott, and Legend. End of models. No attempts at touring or this or that, much less have it your way. Have it your way has been a debacle. Instead, honest bikes and a case for the simple superiority of the complete outcome.

3. Complete bikes alone will compete with shop brands.

Solution: Simple kits with few options and some nice matching stems, saddles, then direct sales and dealers who can hook you up. (Dealers need to make a dime to make it worth the effort not to prefer their floor stock.)

I suppose no one should care what I think. Much less Serotta. If this post throws me off for good, I'm good with that. Take care all, I truly wish Serotta well.

[Ken Robb]

I'm mostly with DBRK. The Colorado Concept tubes do work and should be easy for almost any buyer to look at and "get" the concept of these proprietary components and pay a premium to get them. Trying to differentiate carbon tubes must be more difficult.

Dealers would find it practical to have a few demos in stock if the line were not so overwhelming.

[Pete Serotta]

I miss him and his contributions.....PETE

[mosca]

1. Custom Fit will be--- and has been--- the principal reason I have abandoned Serotta. Too many bikes look awful, too many hands in the pie, from dealers to "fitters."
I agree with the second sentence here but really feel that "Ultimate Fit" is something that Serotta can and should emphasize going forward. They were pioneers of fit science in the past, and custom fit/design is one thing that can't really be achieved by large brands with outsourced production. Just need to refine their system so that their bikes fit right and look right on a consistent basis.

[rugbysecondrow]

Being talented, innovative, charismatic, passionate and knowledgable might not be enough, one also has to be a good business person. Lacking this, it will eventually usurp all the other great attributes.

I don't know enough about the people involved to form a specific opinion, but I think the above holds true across most all industries.

Perhaps but experience is not enough.

Just ask around and see how many Americans in Mr. Serotta’s age group have been phased out of their jobs even though they had great experience. It may be unfortunate but it seems that today’s world is driven more by image than substance. And perhaps even more so by newcomers who replace the highly “experienced and skilled” old guy at half the salary. The world is changing so quickly that it often makes middle age employees obsolete. And if not obsolete their experience doesn’t support a much higher salary.

Can a bike company be that different? It’s doubtful that experience alone counts for much if cost to manufacture is twice as high.

[Lifelover]

I think Tim Tebow needs to work harder.

[jr59]

are you not familiar with the DTM (German Touring Cars) series? or the McLaren F1 cars? take a look at the new SLS... I'd say MB is into racing...

Maybe you didn't know that in 1955 MB was involved in a major crash @ LaMans and quit racing untill it started back in 1993!

Yet somehow their brand grew!

That IMO is not to involved in racing!

Now back to our normal programing.

[tuscanyswe]

are you not familiar with the DTM (German Touring Cars) series? or the McLaren F1 cars? take a look at the new SLS... I'd say MB is into racing...

MB have there on f1 stable but you choose to mention mclaren .) Guess their marketing need abit of work!

[Charles M]

Hmmm,

What engines power McLaren F1 again?


Hmmm ;)

[tuscanyswe]

Hmmm,

What engines power McLaren F1 again?


Hmmm ;)

MBs leftovers :) ?

[CunegoFan]

I
So if Ben can say that the Meivici is "The Best Carbon Bicycle In The World," he should carry that all the way.

Forget "Serotta ... it's why you ride" (awful) or "Nothing rides like a Serotta" (a typically lawyered corporate boast that I just made up).

Go for broke.

"Serotta ... The Best Bicycles In The World."

"Serotta ... The World's Best-Riding Bicycles. Period."

"Serotta ... If You're Not Riding One, You Probably Wear Your Bib Shorts Over Your Jersey."


"Ben Serotta, the original gangster of american frame building."

[gone]

I guest I'll celebrate this "milestone" with a few observations on what has been said and perhaps a few comments of my own.

As you can tell from my moniker, I own 4 Serottas. One of them was custom built for me (a Legend ST) and the rest were bought used. Whenever I ride the Legend, if anyone asks me about it (which they often do) I say "I own a number of bikes but if I could only have one this would be it". Whenever anyone comments on any of my other Serottas (a Coors Team, a Coer d'Acier fixed gear and a Legend) I tell them how much I love them and what great riding bikes they are. So is Serotta hurt by the large number of used Serottas out there? I think not, in my book the best marketing is the passion of a current owner.

I agree with the earlier comments about Serotta trying to make a go in the "dead zone" between small boutique builders and the "big guys". I do think it's possible to exist in that space (witness Moots, IF, ...) but you have to clearly articulate your value proposition and focus like a laser on both getting that message out and delivering on it.

As an example, albeit a poor one. Ben has said they're moving to a model of direct sales to the customer. Cool! If I were going to buy a new Serotta, it'd be an Otrott "ready custom" in 60x60. I don't need a fitting. I don't need a dealer to build it up. Just give me the ability to specify how I want it finished, a reasonable price and a delivery date.

And about that "direct sales" model. I recently ordered an S3 fork. I ordered it directly from Serotta. I was told it would ship "the end of this (last) week". As we sit here today (Wednesday) 3 business days after it was supposed to ship it hasn't. The only part of the transaction that went bang on schedule was charging my credit card - that came off flawlessly. Everything else has been late. If you're going to deal directly with customers you'd better be able to tell them what to expect, when to expect it and deliver.

Finally(!). I love my Serottas. I don't miss an opportunity to tell people how much. I own a number of other bikes that people drool over and/or lust after (Kirk, Parlee Z1x, ...) so when I tell people how much I like my Serottas it generally carries some weight with them. I wish Serotta nothing but success. I hope they're around the next time "new bike lust" hits so I can get that 60x60 Otrott ready custom....

[Elefantino]

I like it when Douglas and Richie cross back over. They have "it."

[rounder]

From reading all of this, i agree with atmo, willam and dbrk. I don't think you need a mission statement but believe you have to know who you are and what you believe and want.

I am a cpa, so can probably be lumped in with the the lawyer, dentist group (if i qualify) when it comes to serotta. I bought my first serotta (raucus red) in 1992, an nhx, when most good racing bikes were Columbus slx. I did not need it to race, but bought it because i thought that coors light was cool and awesome and liked the fact that serotta supported them. I later bought a ciii frame off ebay partly because i felt that i was due for a new bike and the competition red color was too hard to ignore. Then later, bought a kelly bedford bike in team colors because i believed in what he was doing and loved the way the bike looked. I never looked at any of these bikes as an easy chair bike to relax in, or as an investment. I bought them because they all blew me away, and they all had something to do with a love for racing by the builders. Still have them.

I have met Ben, but do not know him. I can sort of understand what he must be going through with the need to survive, while pursuing what he loves. I went to a meet and greet and heard Ben say that: as long as i am with serotta, i will make steel bikes and I would love to see my bikes in the tour de france, but it is a $millions proposition. Hope Ben continues to build cool bikes and wish him success.

[Dan Le foot]

Sad but accepting there is a problem is usually a necessary first step. Interview makes it sound that in hindsight there are a few regrets about decisions made that didn’t work out well.

Lack of innovation for a premium brand has to be the biggest problem. By the time Serotta moved into carbon it had already become a low-cost commodity so it’s difficult to demand a huge price premium compared to other carbon manufacturers that have been perfecting their products for decades. It’s one thing to claim that your carbon is the best in the world but it’s another to have someone pay 3 times more for a similar bike from another well-established company that has been making them for years.

And that leaves titanium. Undoubtedly one of the best in the world but with shrinking market share and lots of competitors. Not a pretty picture either.

This forum probably has little to do with the problems the company faces. Moving forward too slowly with some products like carbon and not leading on innovation are more serious issues.
Chance gets it.
BTW. We have had 9 Serottas between Michelle and I over the last 10 years.
Legends, CDAs and Ottrotts. Our stable now includes Kish ti CX (2), Parlee, Kirk, and a new Seven Axiom ti. Never planned it that way. Just somehow happened.
Dan

[Dan Le foot]

well, the only thing I will say is it would sure be a loss if Serotta decided not to keep making a frame that more people could afford like the Colorado... $2500 certainly isn't entry level, but at least it's attainable for many...
Good point, fourflys.
I bought my 1st serotta in 1999. It was a fully built Classique ti (Ultegra I think) that cost about $2200. A bit of a wet noodle but I was hooked on the Brand and bought a new Legend 2 years later. Had 9 Serottas over the years.
Dan

[OTB]

A 9 page thread in 2 days speaks to bicycling enthusiasts' real & present passion for the man. How about Retire alphabet soup (AE, SE, HSG, ready this-superdupercomp that) and reissue the bikes emotionally linked with Serotta (Legend without carbon, Concours, Colorado, CSI - in limited edition Huffy, Coors)? If you needed, you could order with a modern twist (BB30, DI2
mods).

[1centaur]

It's very difficult to understand a business from the outside, and I'm a guy who analyzes businesses for a living. So I view the thoughts and guesses and suggestions in this thread as an interesting exercise, but probably mostly off target despite plausibility and glancing blows of truth. In that spirit...

Price has been mentioned often in this thread and through the years when Forum members have tried to figure out how to make the business more successful. High prices can only reflect two things: high profits or high costs. I am going to guess it's high costs in this case. Costs get high for a variety of reasons, and once high costs are baked in it's important that revenues stay high. It seems they have not.

Sometimes companies are not in control of their own revenue path. If there's no distinctive competence that resonates at an intellectual level with the buying base ("we're better because...") then something has to resonate at the emotional level - cool, now, winning, unique, perfection, American craftsmanship, timeless - whatever it might be. My impression, I could be wrong, is that Serotta cruised several waves (fit; winning; quality; innovation) simultaneously that drove revenues up, and then all the waves crested and dissipated and left the brand without a strong current relevance; it traded on past glories and current technical quality but was not used to selling that quality insistently and inventively. I practically pleaded to be told why the MeiVici was better than the competition when it came out at a category-topping price point and the answers on this forum were so insufficient that "we can do more extreme angles in our lugs than [by implication] Parlee" was literally the biggest argument. That approach might win the extreme fitting cases but it did not justify $x thousands of dollars in a market that had high quality, innovation and good fit with highly satisfied customers at much lower price points. The market had taken Serotta's best selling points and absorbed them. Some companies fold under the weight of history, and some reinvent and redefine themselves, though that's difficult.

What makes Serotta better, a must buy, in today's market? Well, owning their own carbon facility makes them different. Is it sufficiently different from Asian carbon or Time carbon or Edge carbon to draw buyers? How great would it be to see real riders, fit 50-somethings with wealth and taste, climbing off their MeiVicis at the top of Ventoux or some American climb and saying, "I've owned and ridden the best carbon fiber bikes from the big and small brands and let me tell you, nothing rides like Serotta carbon." The only way to know if that's true is to pay MSRP for your custom dream bike. Or how about selling a culture of perfection for perfectionists - no other brand with any volume can touch that message. Deliver it via social and print media until it sinks in that there's good, and then there's perfect, so buyers must consciously make that choice. Of course, you have to deliver perfect if you have that message, which means sweating details beyond the production floor. Or sell the Ottrot because competitors just won't go to that materials mix, and say there's something magic about an Ottrot's ride (testimonials) - it shouldn't work but it does. Build up the curiosity about something for which there is no alternative, no competition, the price of curiosity is MSRP. Sell Ben as the Ernesto Colnago of American bike building - he's seen it all, he's learned, and he demands only the best output - personalize the company the way the one-man shops do. Trek and Specialized can't touch that; one-man shops hit the edges of that but without the longevity or volume to compete with Serotta. To accomplish all that, Ben has to be single-minded and drive that culture every day in every way, and he must consciously market all the time - on this forum, on Twitter and Facebook, in Velo, at NAHBS, but not at Interbike. A few select dealers can push that message, but that will be person specific at those shops. Serotta, it's rare, it's special, it's unique, it's a perfect customer experience, it's custom, it's Rolls Royce; it's for discerning customers some of whom actually race (BTW - find factory-authorized painters who can accomplish anything within warranty; don't have to paint in-house; guide your customers to the right painter).

That's a winning marketing proposition, IMO. I have no idea if enough frames can be sold to make the money work. I hope the reinvention works.

[Kontact]

There are many interesting comments throughout this thread that suggest the identity or marketing mistakes that may contribute to Serotta's current situation. There is definitely a lot of truth in many of the posts.

But I was thinking today that Seven had a decent year. And maybe IF did, too. Neither sponsors racers, neither is a specialist in any material and neither do any direct sales.


Serotta has changed ownership how many times? The problem might not be racing, marketing, target market or brand perception. It might just be that some companies do better at managing their finances than others.

If I had to bet, I'd put money that Serotta's woes have as much to do with how many different technologies they are juggling as anything else. Even huge companies avoid making their own forks.


Anyway, with the right accountant watching things, I think Serotta could do just fine with all the "mistakes" we've outlined in this thread.

I do strongly agree with Oldpotatoe and TiDesigns - direct sales is a mistake. One that Kestrel made and Cervelo recently ended. You can't lean on your dealers for "word of mouth" when you're upping their minimums and stealing their sales. It makes more money for a short time, but then your brand is being sold by Bikes Direct.

[WickedWheels]

I think there have been enough posts on why the brand is having issues. How about focusing on how to revitalize it.

My recommendation:

- Run it as 3 custom shops in one. Serotta as a collective of builders. One shop for steel, one for ti and another for carbon. Make each one exist on its own merit. Make each one responsible for producing an "affordable" race bike. Something that can be sold for around $4-5k complete.

- Give the brand a face and a personality. Highlight employees. Have an air of "fun". Have an accessible highly-technical section on why the product is better. Showcase the superior construction techniques. Some dealers/buyers may choose to focus on the quality, some on "personality" and some on technology... at least there's a choice. Right now there's nothing interesting on there. Serotta cannot compete based on weight or R&D, so they have to focus attention on what they do right and they have to get technical. As a shop manager, a rider, an enthusiast... I want to see cross-section of the BB shell or hear about the superiority of a titanium dropout. I can sell that to a customer, especially if the $7000 Serotta is being shown next to a $7000 Cannondale.

- Paint shop. Again, operate it as a separate entity and on its own merit. Perhaps even dedicate a portion of it to after-market paint for non-Serotta product. How great would it be if a Serotta club member could have their vintage DeRosa repainted with a Serotta-quality paint job? Offer more custom paint options that what is listed on the site and charge for them, a la Project One from Trek. If it's not successful, then scale it back to only a few "signature" paint options, like the Europeans do.

- If the space is bigger than necessary and business is not there, then perhaps start a school for frame builders. I realize it's not a huge market, but if your builders are idle and the space is available it may be a good short-term project to keep people busy and get the name out there.

My little shop currently has a couple of bikes on display over $8500, a number of bikes over $5k and a plethora of $3000+ bikes, including 5 or 6 Di2 bikes. And we're not a big shop. My point is that these bikes sell and NONE of them are boutique bikes. They are all from big brands... Trek, Cannondale, Felt. These are price points that Serotta should be competitive with, but my customers are not asking for them. This is something that should be addressed.

[eddief]

said he liked Serotta more than Steve Jobs :).

[sailorboy]

20 something guys aren't signing up to buy eRitchie's bikes because of the cross team.. but they still respect him & his brand more then they do Serotta because he is out there and his team is out there.

If you want to go after a doctor/lawyer market you can't capture tomorrow's lawyer & doctor cyclists if you're not sponsoring racing today.. people with the money to spend in 10-20 years will be looking to some other brand that was in the news when they were young and couldn't afford said bike.

I've never heard anyone say a Sachs is a doctor/lawyer bike even though a lot of the guys who actually have them likely make that type of money.

You can call it clever marketing if you want, but besides the great respect I have for Richard's dedication to his chosen craft--lugged steel bikes, period; I chose to get on his list and have purchased his used or spare parts and a frame or two in the past specifically because of his support for grassroots racing. Seeing the weekend exploits of the team on the web, the bikes getting dirty etc makes me feel personally connected to supporting a race team, but also that I will (eventually) get a bike that is the product of a modern race team R+D.

Just like a speedvagen from 2012 is possibly a little bit better than one from 2008--which was still pretty good, I expect that the Sachs I get in 2014 or so, will benefit from the next 3 years of racing development, and of course Richard's continued pursuit of perfection.

Sorry for the thread drift, but I see what e-richie is saying about the race team support split with serotta.

[Louis]

said he liked Serotta more than Steve Jobs :).

OK, Eddie, just throw me under the bus. It's all my fault. ;)

I don't claim to understand the company's problems well enough to have an answer, but apparently lots of other folks here are intimately familiar with Ben's balance sheet, his cash flow, and various and sundry details that allow them to diagnose the problem. I defer to them.

[William]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I see what e-richie is saying about the race team support split with serotta.


I get no respect around here. ;) :D





William

[palincss]

But I was thinking today that Seven had a decent year. And maybe IF did, too. Neither sponsors racers, neither is a specialist in any material and neither do any direct sales.


Maybe my view is skewed, but at my LBS Seven came out of nowhere a few years ago, doing the same thing as Serotta, and they've eaten Serotta's lunch and displaced it entirely. Why? Are they truly as similar as they look to me, or is there some magical difference my untutored eye is missing?

[Smiley]

Maybe my view is skewed, but at my LBS Seven came out of nowhere a few years ago, doing the same thing as Serotta, and they've eaten Serotta's lunch and displaced it entirely. Why? Are they truly as similar as they look to me, or is there some magical difference my untutored eye is missing?


I assume you mean Spokes Etc as your LBS and if so there is a good reason why Seven is doing well there, LOOK AT WHAT SEROTTA requires from their dealers for a custom fit and look at what Seven requires and your answer is in front of you.

A dealer does NOTHING but dail a 800 number with body measurements and Seven does the rest and assumes the design liability, not as easy with Serotta.

[Pete Serotta]

Ben appreciates all the input. Changes are underway with Serotta.com and the business process.

It is a "glass half full and not half empty" and still be a wonderful brand and product


PETE.


Hope to see you all in 2012 for a wonderful riding season and some wine.

:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

Appreciate all the input.


PETE

a pleasure atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:) :) :cool:

[Pete Serotta]

:D

THanks Pete

[Climb01742]

i'm curious. the poll mentions 'offenders'. may i ask what makes someone an 'offender'?

[Pete Serotta]

i'm curious. the poll mentions 'offenders'. may i ask what makes someone an 'offender'?

for me it has been an attack on someone by another, It is rare these days but does happen. It then causes others who are uncomfortable with posts to posts less. It was like the lunch table and non lunch table. Their elite opinion caused non elite riders to not take part. It is very rare today but some IDs are no longer active on this forum.


I will change the word to something else if others have an idea of what word to use.

Maybe these type of actions by me are not good for the forum now.

But to me "offender" has always been someone attacking someone else AND that was a zero tolerance.

Have difference opinions and listening to other ideas has always been a learning experience for me and the only one I have not accepted is attacking others on the forum. Sorry to have not conveyed it well when I listed offender


PETE

[Climb01742]

for me it has been an attack on someone by another, It is rare these days but does happen. It then causes others who are uncomfortable with posts to posts less. It was like the lunch table and non lunch table. Their elite opinion caused non elite riders to not take part. It is very rare today but some IDs are no longer active on this forum.


I will change the word to something else if others have an idea of what word to use.

Maybe these type of actions by me are not good for the forum now.

But to me "offender" has always been someone attacking someone else AND that was a zero tolerance.

Have difference opinions and listening to other ideas has always been a learning experience for me and the only one I have not accepted is attacking others on the forum. Sorry to have not conveyed it well when I listed offender


PETE

it's all good, pete. the word just threw me a bit in connection with this thread. IMO, this is a good, thoughtful, and thought-provoking discussion. with many people being 'defenders' rather than 'offenders', as they expressed their love of, and best wishes for, ben and company.

this thread also feels like an embodiment of a new reality today: that just as much as a company 'owns' their brand, so too do the customers 'own' the brand. a product only exists as a shared enterprise between a company and its clients. following the voice of the clients isn't necessary (and often not wise) but hearing their voice is an absolute necessity today. that may, in fact, be the greatest worth of this forum to ben+co.

[Pete Serotta]

I should have been more definitive and thought twice(at least twice) before closing it, :crap: :beer: and beers are on me when we meet. PETE

it's all good, pete. the word just threw me a bit in connection with this thread. IMO, this is a good, thoughtful, and thought-provoking discussion. with many people being 'defenders' rather than 'offenders', as they expressed their love of, and best wishes for, ben and company.

this thread also feels like an embodiment of a new reality today: that just as much as a company 'owns' their brand, so too do the customers 'own' the brand. a product only exists as a shared enterprise between a company and its clients. following the voice of the clients isn't necessary (and often not wise) but hearing their voice is an absolute necessity today. that may, in fact, be the greatest worth of this forum to ben+co.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in this online environment to judge true intentions of what people say. They truly may not realize what they are saying will be intepreted by the other person as a personal attack.

I would do what we have done with many other threads--engage the "offender" politely and let they and others know that the thread is taking bad turn and needs to come back on track.

I have rarely seen a thread here that contains as much cogent thought and well-intentioned serious analysis with good intentions as this one has so far. It's a sample of what the forum has been in the past--and what it could be again, and I think that's why I've seen some members posting on this one I had thought were long gone from the forum. THAT is a true pleasure!

Keep it open, keep the discussion going with one uninterrupted train of though, and continue what will no doubt turn out to be of real lasting use to Ben and his company in crafting a course that will suceed.

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

Are long term valued members and that have never been an offender.

The notes I have gotten on attack complaints have not voted yet and maybe they will join the ones who have voted "do nothing" and so far it is looking like a land slide for me to not ever go that route again (closing)

Dave and Keith have got me into much thinking and some of my actions like closing this thread will be even in more thinking and during drinking,

. THANKS PETE :beer:

[Fixed]

serotta makes great bikes for the gentleman cyclist
maybe there are not many around these days .
cheers

[BillG]

It seems like Seven is doing well (from the little I know). They make a wide range of custom bikes in different materials. And it seems like Serotta is moving to that model. I hope they open a cafe!

[BumbleBeeDave]

It seems like Seven is doing well (from the little I know). They make a wide range of custom bikes in different materials. And it seems like Serotta is moving to that model. I hope they open a cafe!

. . . that we truly cannot REALLY know how things are for these companies right now. Many may be close to the bleeding edge but it doesn't show. It is in the best interest of any company to look healthy.

It is to Ben's credit that things are difficult right now and he quietly went about his business trying to make them better. That's what ANY business owner would do.

But when someone asked publicly here what was going on, he responded openly and honestly rght here. When the local newspaper came calling, he didn't say "no comment." He talked to them and was honest that things are tight right now--just as they are for a lot of businesses.

I think that says a lot in a good way.

BBD

[BillG]

Absolutely. I'm thinking about buying a Serotta not because I need a bike -- I don't -- but because I admire him and the way he's done business so much. In addition I know it will be a great bike!


. . . that we truly cannot REALLY know how things are for these companies right now. Many may be close to the bleeding edge but it doesn't show. It is in the best interest of any company to look healthy.

It is to Ben's credit that things are difficult right now and he quietly went about his business trying to make them better. That's what ANY business owner would do.

But when someone asked publicly here what was going on, he responded openly and honestly rght here. When the local newspaper came calling, he didn't say "no comment." He talked to them and was honest that things are tight right now--just as they are for a lot of businesses.

I think that says a lot in a good way.

BBD

[Chance]

i'm curious. the poll mentions 'offenders'. may i ask what makes someone an 'offender'?
Rather funny because it depends on who you ask although in this case it's clear you are asking officials.

Ride with a couple of guys who were banned and you'll get a much different reply. There are always two sides to every issue. The only thing that matters is remembering that only Serotta’s point of view counts. It’s final so right or wrong it has to be accepted. Seems simple enough.

These two friends seem to have understood that well although they thought rules were applied arbitrarily. Either way it's doubtful they will be buying Serottas in the future. Some brand damage is irreparable although odds are that any one rider won't buy a Serotta anyway.

[layneo59]

Interesting about the thought of closing this thread. Much of this information/commentary is equivalent to the market research and consulting companies pay thousands of $$ to purchase. When you do market research you hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's up to the company reviewing this research to determine what is most important.

A focus group with some of your most important customers at no cost--I really don't see much of a downside to this unless things start to get personal!

[AngryScientist]

serotta makes great bikes for the gentleman cyclist
maybe there are not many around these days .
cheers

hell yea, this thing is truly beautiful:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/156374_186977741318349_119812894701501_747982_2556 346_n.jpg

[Chance]

When you do market research you hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Difference is that it's unlikely a company would make that data public. Honesty is only constructive to a point. Beyond that it can hurt the brand more than help.

[HomardBreton]

...there is a lot of discussion about the situation at Serotta and a lot of tips to make the turnaround - and yes: there a signs, that the economic situation is not the best at the moment. Perhaps they only want to change some structures...

But for spending serious tips for the scenario it is - to my opinion - necessary to know all the details whose are causing this situation. And these are only known by Ben and the staff at the facility. I´m sure, that they will do the right thing. If I would know them, I´ll better prepared to comment the situation; and than, I possibly would do it.

Now, I only would wish them all the best for their future projects, hold both thumbs - and I´m sure they´ll do it well.

Go for your dream, Ben !!!

[Climb01742]

Difference is that it's unlikely a company would make that data public. Honesty is only constructive to a point. Beyond that it can hurt the brand more than help.

i think things are changing. transparency is almost inevitable these days. which leaves the true choice not whether information will come out but whether a company facilitates it or appears to be hiding it.

the web and social media are creating a new playing field. some of it is good, some of it may not be, but it's getting harder to keep anything under wraps.

for companies and for us humans, honesty isn't the greatest challenge. accepting the honest truth is.

[BumbleBeeDave]

i think things are changing. transparency is almost inevitable these days. which leaves the true choice not whether information will come out but whether a company facilitates it or appears to be hiding it.

the web and social media are creating a new playing field. some of it is good, some of it may not be, but it's getting harder to keep anything under wraps.

for companies and for us humans, honesty isn't the greatest challenge. accepting the honest truth is.

But unfortunately there are many companies--some VERY large--that have not learned that lesson yet.

BBD

[Dan Le foot]

Maybe my view is skewed, but at my LBS Seven came out of nowhere a few years ago, doing the same thing as Serotta, and they've eaten Serotta's lunch and displaced it entirely. Why? Are they truly as similar as they look to me, or is there some magical difference my untutored eye is missing?
A few months ago I decided to get rid of my plastic bikes and go all Ti.
My 1st choice was to find my custom Legend that I built in 2001. Loved that bike. (Bought it right after 9/11 and painted it red white and blue) Actually found it. Belonged to a Forumite but he decided he wanted to keep it.
I looked at a new Legend framset. YIKES. $6500 if i recall.
So I bought a Seven Axiom S and Envy 1 fork for $3K. Is the Seven as good as a Legend. I sure can't tell the difference in the ride quality. Workmanship looks similiar to my untrained eye. Sevens back stays are very cool and the welds are at lease as good.
So in terms of price/perceived value it was a no brainer for me.
Dan

[Kirk007]

Glad this is still open. Sad to hear about Serotta's struggles but I guess I'm not surprised given the economy. I had a Legend; the ride was sublime. If it had fit better I would probably still have it.

I like nice bikes and despite best intentions of having just one or two, I have no discipline. I would like a nice ti frame again. I have dabbled in carbon and may do so again. But I am not made out of money and must feel that there is real value in my purchase decisions. For me this is where Serotta has run into trouble. I haven't seen a convincing articulation of the added value to justify Serotta's price points and I don't believe my butt is perceptive enough to tell a meaningful difference when we are talking the highest level frames.

I quickly did some random price checking: Top shelf carbon offerings: Meivici SE: $8395, Parlee Z1: $7000, Crumpton SL: $5300, Colnago C59: $5900

Top shelf Ti: Legend: $5695, Spectrum Super: $3900 (guessing Seven is around this price point given their prices for complete bikes), Eriksen $3100 (guessing Moots is around this price point). IF Crown Jewel Ti: $4000, Firefly: $3850

Others: Pegoretti Respo: 4400-5000 (and other Pegs are significantly less).

The price difference is substantial, to me. All of these other bikes have vocal supporters; most have a long history of production and quality; many have storied history. As a consumer of nice bikes, as much as I like and respect the Serotta brand, it hasn't made its case to me on value or superiority of product.

Build a legend ti, all ti, with level and sloped top tube options; make it your best ti offering and put it within a few hundred $$ of Spectrum et all (higher or lower) and then I would be interested. As 1Centaur points out about current built in costs, this may not be possible. I hope that the lowering of cost structure changes this. Finally, I hope they can get a grip on the custom sizing/visual impact equation (see dbrk's post). Too many Serotta's just are not very visually appealing. I went to a "highly regarded" Serotta fitter once; his measurements produced a fine looking bike in the end; but his suggested design was butt ugly.

[Jeff N.]

Glad this is still open. Sad to hear about Serotta's struggles but I guess I'm not surprised given the economy. I had a Legend; the ride was sublime. If it had fit better I would probably still have it.

I like nice bikes and despite best intentions of having just one or two, I have no discipline. I would like a nice ti frame again. I have dabbled in carbon and may do so again. But I am not made out of money and must feel that there is real value in my purchase decisions. For me this is where Serotta has run into trouble. I haven't seen a convincing articulation of the added value to justify Serotta's price points and I don't believe my butt is perceptive enough to tell a meaningful difference when we are talking the highest level frames.

I quickly did some random price checking: Top shelf carbon offerings: Meivici SE: $8395, Parlee Z1: $7000, Crumpton SL: $5300, Colnago C59: $5900

Top shelf Ti: Legend: $5695, Spectrum Super: $3900 (guessing Seven is around this price point given their prices for complete bikes), Eriksen $3100 (guessing Moots is around this price point). IF Crown Jewel Ti: $4000, Firefly: $3850

Others: Pegoretti Respo: 4400-5000 (and other Pegs are significantly less).

The price difference is substantial, to me. All of these other bikes have vocal supporters; most have a long history of production and quality; many have storied history. As a consumer of nice bikes, as much as I like and respect the Serotta brand, it hasn't made its case to me on value or superiority of product.

Build a legend ti, all ti, with level and sloped top tube options; make it your best ti offering and put it within a few hundred $$ of Spectrum et all (higher or lower) and then I would be interested. As 1Centaur points out about current built in costs, this may not be possible. I hope that the lowering of cost structure changes this. Finally, I hope they can get a grip on the custom sizing/visual impact equation (see dbrk's post). Too many Serotta's just are not very visually appealing. I went to a "highly regarded" Serotta fitter once; his measurements produced a fine looking bike in the end; but his suggested design was butt ugly.Exactly. I think with most folks who know the brand...when they think NEW Serotta, the first thing that comes to mind is dollar $ign$. Jeff N.

[SamIAm]

I have always spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out why my customers buy from me and why others did not buy from me.

In that spirit and as someone who has often considered buying a Serotta, but never pulled the trigger, here are my 2 cents in rank priority order.

The pricing is just too high.
I am not willing to work through a dealer, nor go through the Serotta fit process.
No lugged steel options.
The pricing is just too high.

The multitude of models does not address the pricing problem. I want the Meivici, not the HSG, the Legend, not the Classique, the Ottrott, not the Fierte, the CDA (but lugged :) ) not the Colorado.

[Gothard]

Have a sloping full Ti Legend with fork within 500$ of a Spectrum super, and I'll order tomorrow.
Untill that happens....The 2500$ difference will buy me Record and top shelf parts...

[John H.]

I totally agree on models/pricing.
Serotta should streamline the lineup to only the top drawer offerings.
Then, these top drawer offerings need to be competitive with other brands in terms of price.
People want a legend- but they want it for $3500- not $5500. Same for other models.

[Kirk007]

The multitude of models does not address the pricing problem. I want the Meivici, not the HSG, the Legend, not the Classique, the Ottrott, not the Fierte, the CDA (but lugged :) ) not the Colorado.

+1

[Lifelover]

Interesting about the thought of closing this thread. Much of this information/commentary is equivalent to the market research and consulting companies pay thousands of $$ to purchase. When you do market research you hear the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's up to the company reviewing this research to determine what is most important.

A focus group with some of your most important customers at no cost--I really don't see much of a downside to this unless things start to get personal!


It's interesting because I completely disagree. Businesses are willing to pay for market research in hopes of getting specific, focused and useful information. ATMO, all this thread provides is pontification from engineers, retirees, yoga instructors and the like. To declare the Serotta business model (and thus the man) as a failure is baseless at best.

While I regard the forum's general IQ as being significantly higher than average, no one outside of the inner circle has any clue as to the specifics. We might as well be working together to solve world hunger. Our knowledge base and understanding of the problem is the same.

And comparing the Serotta business model to that of a 1 man shop is ludicrous. Last year's 700 frames appears to have the company on life support but that number is most likely larger than even Sachs 10 year back log. It is simply not the same thing.

I admire Ben for taking high road (in appearance anyway) and doing what he can to keep his business model going. There are dozens (?) of people whose income is directly dependent on him. He could easily bail on all of them and sustain a reasonable income by becoming a one man shop that contracts the painting else where. If he went that route he would instantly be the best known ( and likely the most sought after) builder in the country.

[1centaur]

Yes, we don't know, and would likely be very surprised to know everything. But you don't have to understand the business to question price if you can point to perceived comparable frames that cost a lot less. That's a reality of the customer base that has to be part of the solution. And some of the business ideas are really just different ways to circle in on the price issue, to understand it, to try to reconnect with a brand that people want to reconnect to (think how rare that is in business) but can't justify to themselves in a customer base that seems capable of justifying almost anything to themselves.

Neiman Marcus focuses on a core group of very wealthy customers that spend a lot at NM every year, many thousands, and are not price sensitive. Around that group, they cater to aspirational buyers who are not that rich but can afford to pay those prices once or twice a year. In the credit crisis NM got clobbered, along with the stock market. Since the crisis, they've bounced back really well. They went with cheaper stuff for a while but I get the sense that's not so important anymore. They have a lot of debt, but not so much that they defaulted at the trough. They had built their business around costs that were high but not too high, though if the trough had persisted the costs would perhaps have been too high.

If the article from the OP is correct, Serotta did not see the big revenue rebound that NM did. Something had changed. At NM the image of being the best and fashion forward and having high customer service differentiated NM from its peers in the minds of its customers. The number one thing I take away from this thread is how undifferentiated Serotta fans (let alone LBS newbies) find the product. That gets solved in only two ways - differentiate, or adjust prices. Both options have been suggested in this thread. To my mind, having Poway makes it hard to use option B - the differentiation potential is already owned. If the Poway carbon or what it allows is not really different enough to justify price, it should be sold and price points should be adjusted to compete with builders who are buying third-party tubes. Serotta owns its high quality brand reputation and the demand should be there. But Time gets lots of traction from the "weave their own carbon" story, so I don't see why "only CF brand in the US to make their own carbon" story would not work here as part of a larger differentiation campaign.

3 ways to succeed in business: better; cheaper; cheaper and better. The customer decides if any of these is true, not the business.

[Kirk007]

Y... but can't justify to themselves in a customer base that seems capable of justifying almost anything to themselves....



too funny. What an apt description.

[rugbysecondrow]

I often agree with you, but what is posted here is from the horses mouth. Honest, unadulterated, mostly unbiased opinions. Business is business, but customers are customers and they have spoken. Listen or die.

It's interesting because I completely disagree. Businesses are willing to pay for market research in hopes of getting specific, focused and useful information. ATMO, all this thread provides is pontification from engineers, retirees, yoga instructors and the like. To declare the Serotta business model (and thus the man) as a failure is baseless at best.

While I regard the forum's general IQ as being significantly higher than average, no one outside of the inner circle has any clue as to the specifics. We might as well be working together to solve world hunger. Our knowledge base and understanding of the problem is the same.

And comparing the Serotta business model to that of a 1 man shop is ludicrous. Last year's 700 frames appears to have the company on life support but that number is most likely larger than even Sachs 10 year back log. It is simply not the same thing.

I admire Ben for taking high road (in appearance anyway) and doing what he can to keep his business model going. There are dozens (?) of people whose income is directly dependent on him. He could easily bail on all of them and sustain a reasonable income by becoming a one man shop that contracts the painting else where. If he went that route he would instantly be the best known ( and likely the most sought after) builder in the country.

[WickedWheels]

3 ways to succeed in business: better; cheaper; cheaper and better. The customer decides if any of these is true, not the business.

Those are the only ways to succeed in business?! Do I even need to list companies that are successful with a very contradictory business model?

The problem that everyone here has with Serotta pricing is not due to the price. It's due to Serotta's inability or unwillingness to educate the consumer on the superiority of their product.

For the Legend frames, for example... educate people and highlight the fact that triple-butted tubes that are tapered and swagged will result in a better quality frame than a double-butted frame with straight tubes. SELL them on the idea of paying the extra money for quality rather than simply leave them to accept the image. Explain that the Classique is the model comparable to every other companies' top-shelf offering that and your top-shelf is vastly superior... hence the higher price tag.

We live in a world where people pay tens of thousands of dollars for watches that are not as reliable as a $50 Timex. A world where people will pay an extra $10k+ for the Mercedes S550 over the S500. Where a golf club membership costs more than a year's tuition in an Ivy League school. I can't imagine that there aren't enough consumers to support a $6k titanium frame or an $8k carbon frame. Just get your sales force behind the concept and educated... in this case, the LBS employees... ALL of them.

[Buzz]

... ATMO, all this thread provides is pontification from engineers, retirees, yoga instructors and the like. To declare the Serotta business model (and thus the man) as a failure is baseless at best.
Well said. Actually to call Serotta or its plans to "right size" a failure is breathtakingly ignorant. Everyone should go to the Serotta home page and review the history time line under the About tab. It is clear that Ben has always been about more than welding some tubes.

Let's review: Serotta has continuously employed a good number of people, kept alive what little is left of a once proud and vibrant culture of American craftsmanship and continued to push the envelope on new bicycle and related manufacturing technologies and yes, be willing to take risks on things such as DKS, etc. How can that be considered a failure? I call that an accomplishment that few if any on this forum have ever even come close to touching in their lives and careers.

Serotta should return to making a lugged steel frame and stop making carbon bikes. That's the answer, really?

Mr. Ben Serotta: I am sure you know to listen to you own instincts. They have served you, your employees and your customers well for 30 plus years. I look forward to seeing what the future brings for you and your company.

[Kontact]

I don't think anyone has said that Serotta has "failed". Serotta has a problem and has to change as a company to attempt to fix that problem. When GM has a problem that causes them to lay off a huge percentage of employees, most people do not look at this "change" as primarily positive. Healthy companies generally don't downsize.


Is anyone else confused by the poll? There's plenty of bashing and condescension on this forum, but not much on this thread. It isn't like it is a materials 'discussion'...


I hadn't realized just how Serotta's prices compared to other similar brands. Does anyone make a more expensive Ti frame than a Serotta Legend? The only thing I can think of is a full mirror polish Lynskey Helix.

[forrestw]

Some of what I've seen in this thread

I want a Legend for comparable prices as Spectrum makes frames at Seven's factory.

The forum provides the equivalent of market research

Serotta should quit carbon

Serotta should offer brazed steel

I don't have time to go through Serotta's fit process

Here's my $0.02

First off, very few Ti frame makers do single-pass welding, it's a ????e load harder to make a beautiful weld in a single pass and afaik, that's how Serottas are put together. As has been mentioned on the forum, Serotta also takes pride in leading the industry in frame alignment. This kind of attention to detail is worth a few extra $ to me.

Notably un-butted TI from spectrum is about the same price as a Classique Ti. and looking at Seven's lineiup, they're a bit less expensive than Serotta but you won't find swept carbon seat stays -- one of my favorite Serotta features on any Seven.

Opinions are a dime a dozen, research costs money and adds value. I'm pretty sure Ben has looked at what part of his business has the best ROI and that that's what they're moving toward.

IMO Serotta's work in carbon forks and seat stays is second to none. The F3 fork on my Legend is an amazing structure and when I build myself an over-sized steel frame I'm going to put an F3 fork on it. I'm sure their full carbon frames are that good also. Trek and Cerevelo make lovely bikes but they don't do custom.

Brazed steel is available from one of Serotta's best former builders, 'nuf said.

Seven's a great company and they do good stuff but their fit system consists of a form you fill out and send them. I like Serotta's way better, the fit cycle and their standards and training for their fitters sure worked for me. I also won't ever buy a Seven, I like Serotta's designs better and I think their engineering is far more solid.

(EDIT) corrected spectrum mfg location

[Gothard]

Forrest, you have valid points, but you should educate yourself on Mr. Kellog (Spectrum).

[jpw]

A hard copy example of where this website is not cutting it;

http://www.serotta.com/bikes/forks/

http://woundupcomposites.com/specs.html

Having all the hard info on the web page would I'm sure save Serotta a lot of time answering the same or similar questions again and again and again from a queue of potential buyers of the product. Time saved is cost saved.

...and 'concierge'? Come off it, it's 'customer service'...done first time and on time. Cut the affectations out. All the best.

P.S. Woundup is n't really even a geniune bicycle company and yet it knows how to get the basic marketing right. When the dealer network is cut back the website is the oracle.

[Lifelover]

I don't think anyone has said that Serotta has "failed". ......

...... But I have an opinion about Serotta's failure, 'cause that's what it is......

try reading instead of typing

[rugbysecondrow]

Well said. Actually to call Serotta or its plans to "right size" a failure is breathtakingly ignorant. Everyone should go to the Serotta home page and review the history time line under the About tab. It is clear that Ben has always been about more than welding some tubes.

Let's review: Serotta has continuously employed a good number of people, kept alive what little is left of a once proud and vibrant culture of American craftsmanship and continued to push the envelope on new bicycle and related manufacturing technologies and yes, be willing to take risks on things such as DKS, etc. How can that be considered a failure? I call that an accomplishment that few if any on this forum have ever even come close to touching in their lives and careers.

Serotta should return to making a lugged steel frame and stop making carbon bikes. That's the answer, really?

Mr. Ben Serotta: I am sure you know to listen to you own instincts. They have served you, your employees and your customers well for 30 plus years. I look forward to seeing what the future brings for you and your company.

You are assuming there is a plan to right size.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, and I think that is what has come out in this thread. Folks have said many of these things before, shoddy website, pricing that is hard to justify, no entry level bike, lame image issues etc. but it is really culminating here. None of this takes away any achievements of the company or Ben, but businesses can take wrong turns, run stagnant, loose touch, even those with fantastic pasts. It is reasonable to both accept the wrong turn, stagnancy etc. while also embracing the greatness of the history, achievements and potential.

It is the past greatness and potential for future greatness that folks are passionate about. It is that potemtial loss of greatness that I think stirs an equal amout of passion.

[Climb01742]

in my corner of the business world (advertising/marketing) i've never seen a time when there was greater pressure on pricing. everyone wants everything cheaper (and faster.) it's never been harder to justify, in a client's mind, why quality costs more and why it's worth paying for, and why, from our side, we simply have to be able to offer lower cost options.

this thread seems to be evidence that pricing, and the rationale for that pricing, is one of serotta's main nuts to crack, and that right now, the brand is misaligned with the expectations of cyclists.

[William]

In today's information overload world, the consumer has much more product information at their finger tips then they have ever had for comparison. When talking about hard core long time cyclists it becomes even harder to justify why a steep premium should be paid for a product. Many folks have more then one brand in their stable and with top quality competitors like Spectrum, Moots, Seven, Parlee, Crumpton, Bedford, Kirk, Yamaguchi, Sachs, Zank etc...for comparison at lower price points it's even harder. There was a time when Serotta was head and shoulders was above the rest, but that margin has shrunk considerably in the last ten years. Serotta quality didn't get worse, everyone else got much better. One could argue fit, but any of these builders know how to dial you in.

Serotta quality is top notch, but are they that much better to justify the large price difference compared to the other esteemed builders we all love? That's a hard sell IMO.




William

[BillG]

this thread seems to be evidence that pricing, and the rationale for that pricing, is one of serotta's main nuts to crack, and that right now, the brand is misaligned with the expectations of cyclists.

The brand is misaligned with the expectations of some of the cyclists on the Forum. I'm not sure this is a characteristic group -- or even a characteristic group of Serotta owners. I do think Richard Sachs' advice was very good, and he certainly knows what he's talking about, but I'm not sure the "I'm buying my 8th handcrafted steel bike for my Fall dirt ride" crowd is the main customer. They certainly seem to have a lot of interest in the serious (i.e. seriously competitive) trigeeks, for example.

[e-RICHIE]

<cut>There was a time when Serotta was head and shoulders was above the rest, but that margin has shrunk considerably in the last ten years. Serotta quality didn't get worse, everyone else got much better. One could argue fit, but any of these builders know how to dial you in.
i don't know if i buy into the better/worse comment, but the ten years is about the time span in which the high profile race involvement simply vanished atmo. the association the bicycle had with the sport, especially that it was always part of a winning combination, paid back in spades.

Serotta quality is top notch, but are they that much better to justify the large price difference compared to the other esteemed builders we all love? That's a hard sell IMO.
by and large i think of serotta as a bicycle company rather than a framebuilder. the brand has always been more associated with industry, and the LBS big box names we know (cannondale, giant, colnago) than with the independent makers cited in your reply.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:rolleyes: :D :D

[William]

The brand is misaligned with the expectations of some of the cyclists on the Forum. I'm not sure this is a characteristic group -- or even a characteristic group of Serotta owners. I do think Richard Sachs' advice was very good, and he certainly knows what he's talking about, but I'm not sure the "I'm buying my 8th handcrafted steel bike for my Fall dirt ride" crowd is the main customer. They certainly seem to have a lot of interest in the serious (i.e. seriously competitive) trigeeks, for example.

That may be true, when you're hanging out in the bike shop shooting the chit, how many times have you seen a newb (for lack of a better term) come in to look at bikes and have sticker shock? "That costs how much!!!!" I've seen that quite a few times and I don't even hang at the lbs all that much. That certainly won't be the market targeting Serotta or other high end brands either. Since Serotta left the race scene, I think the market has been more of the educated long time cyclist then new customers.

But I could be wrong. :)




William

[BillG]

True, but there are people out there who want things partly because they are expensive. And when that's combined with actually being an excellent product, and a desire to perform at a very high level...

But I have no idea. What Lifelover said!

[William]

i don't know if i buy into the better/worse comment, but the ten years is about the time span in which the high profile race involvement simply vanished atmo. the association the bicycle had with the sport, especially that it was always part of a winning combination, paid back in spades.


by and large i think of serotta as a bicycle company rather than a framebuilder. the brand has always been more associated with industry, and the LBS big box names we know (cannondale, giant, colnago) than with the independent makers cited in your reply.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
:rolleyes: :D :D


A.) Agree completely Big "e".

B.) You say "I think of...", but Serotta market speak creates the image of building a frame for you around your fit. Even though it's a bigger company then the independent builders, I think many consumer still think of them like an independent.





William

[William]

True, but there are people out there who want things partly because they are expensive. And when that's combined with actually being an excellent product, and a desire to perform at a very high level...



True, but I would think that is a small market segment.

But I could be wrong. :)





William

[oldpotatoe]

True, but there are people out there who want things partly because they are expensive. And when that's combined with actually being an excellent product, and a desire to perform at a very high level...

But I have no idea. What Lifelover said!

Has any Serotta dealer contributed to this thread(getting big!)?

One in Boulder dropped Serotta, hopefully Serotta listened to their concerns, as to why they did. Small boutique shop who 'seemed' a perfect match. Even with production much lower than anticipated, lots of production capability in the Serotta factory, delivery was slow, QC was a problem...

If the 'other' customer(the dealer) isn't happy, neither is the end use customer.

[Kontact]

try reading instead of typing
So, would this be an example of the "offenders" in the poll? Rude, baseless attacks?

I could see deleting this type of post.

[Kontact]

Has any Serotta dealer contributed to this thread(getting big!)?

One in Boulder dropped Serotta, hopefully Serotta listened to their concerns, as to why they did. Small boutique shop who 'seemed' a perfect match. Even with production much lower than anticipated, lots of production capability in the Serotta factory, delivery was slow, QC was a problem...

If the 'other' customer(the dealer) isn't happy, neither is the end use customer.
You aren't one?

I work at a Serotta dealer, or maybe former Serotta dealer? We're a small, boutique, high end road shop that has been with Serotta a long time. I haven't heard of any quality problems, but this past year we couldn't get bikes in a timely manner, then we had an "impractical" minimum imposed if we wanted to stay as an authorized dealer.

Essentially, we would have had to regularly sell custom fitted, pricey Serottas during winter, in Wisconsin. That isn't going to happen.

[forrestw]

Forrest, you have valid points, but you should educate yourself on Mr. Kellog (Spectrum).
You know what they say: woulda, coulda, shoulda

I'm well aware of Tom Kellogg's rep and I'm certain it's well deserved. That doesn't change the fact that some posts here are characterizing Serotta's line as far more (your number was $2500) expensive than its competition for feature-comparable bikes.

My reading of the pricing doesn't support that, I chose Spectrum and Seven as examples because neither of them offer the value I see in a Legend. They're not alone in that, Serotta invented some ideas in frame construction that nobody else offers.

Most riders understand / agree that Ti offers some energy absorption that steel does not and that the material, however for my $ that alone does not justify the much higher construction cost. Ti is not going to make a straight seat stay absorb energy the way a swept stay does whatever the material used in its construction.

Many of the residents here place huge value on the reputation of individual builders: TK, RS, KB etc. I think that degree of emphasis is BS -- ymmv. My rationale is that the solution for what custom geometry fits an individual should be the same whoever the builder / fitter is and that the skill of the fitter/designer determines how well the geometry matches the need. Once that need is met the rest is in design, execution and the quality of construction. Those three things all cost money.

I personally wouldn't put a Spectrum at the top of my list (I already said as much for Seven). The first reason, stated priorly is that the swept stays and rider-tuned forks are a good value proposition IMO. The second is that if I wanted to go without the swept seat stays I can build myself a steel frame that would be close enough to an all Ti frame for <1/4 the price of custom Ti (and of course a significant investment of time). I am planning to build one next winter and hope to let y'all know how it works out in spring '13.

[fourflys]

You know what they say: woulda, coulda, shoulda

I'm well aware of Tom Kellogg's rep and I'm certain it's well deserved. <snip> I am planning to build one next winter and hope to let y'all know how it works out in spring '13.


I think the main point was that Spectrum doesn't have anything to do with ABG or Chattanooga as your post suggested...

[Gothard]

Forrest (thread drift):
Butted Spectrum Ti 3900 with fork.
Butted (legend) 5700, plus F3 Fork 800- There is your 2500+ difference.

As for Mr Kellog's position on the Ti tree.... He has been designing Ti the longest if I know correctly.

And a last detail, some do specifically not want any carbon on their Ti frames (fork nonwithstanding). Legend does not seem to offer that possibility, which is a shame considering the Legend is arguably the best Ti frame out there.

[Kirk007]

You know what they say: woulda, coulda, shoulda

I'm well aware of Tom Kellogg's rep and I'm certain it's well deserved. That doesn't change the fact that some posts here are characterizing Serotta's line as far more (your number was $2500) expensive than its competition for feature-comparable bikes.

My reading of the pricing doesn't support that, I chose Spectrum and Seven as examples because neither of them offer the value I see in a Legend. They're not alone in that, Serotta invented some ideas in frame construction that nobody else offers.

Most riders understand / agree that Ti offers some energy absorption that steel does not and that the material, however for my $ that alone does not justify the much higher construction cost. Ti is not going to make a straight seat stay absorb energy the way a swept stay does whatever the material used in its construction.

Many of the residents here place huge value on the reputation of individual builders: TK, RS, KB etc. I think that degree of emphasis is BS -- ymmv. My rationale is that the solution for what custom geometry fits an individual should be the same whoever the builder / fitter is and that the skill of the fitter/designer determines how well the geometry matches the need. Once that need is met the rest is in design, execution and the quality of construction. Those three things all cost money.

I personally wouldn't put a Spectrum at the top of my list (I already said as much for Seven). The first reason, stated priorly is that the swept stays and rider-tuned forks are a good value proposition IMO. The second is that if I wanted to go without the swept seat stays I can build myself a steel frame that would be close enough to an all Ti frame for <1/4 the price of custom Ti (and of course a significant investment of time). I am planning to build one next winter and hope to let y'all know how it works out in spring '13.

So everyone is entitled to their opinion. You bought a Legend; good for you great bike. But I disagree strongly with your proposition that any off the shelf Serotta fitter will do for you what TK could do given his experience level. And he uses butted tubing. And I think Seven now does the manufacture. At the end of the day I don't care if the tubing is quadruple butted with s stays or whatever. It's about the ride, for the individual, and given the number of high end bikes I've ridden over the past ten years I'm confident that many builders can deliver on this measure with equal ability to Serotta and at less cost (which allows nicer, more wheels yada yada). I don't quite get the acrimonious tone of your posts putting down other builders as inferior.

[forrestw]

... But I disagree strongly with your proposition that any off the shelf Serotta fitter will do for you what TK could do given his experience level. And he uses butted tubing. And I think Seven now does the manufacture. At the end of the day I don't care if the tubing is quadruple butted with s stays or whatever. It's about the ride, for the individual, and given the number of high end bikes I've ridden over the past ten years I'm confident that many builders can deliver on this measure with equal ability to Serotta and at less cost (which allows nicer, more wheels yada yada). I don't quite get the acrimonious tone of your posts putting down other builders as inferior.

I don't think we disagree, read what I wrote the skill of the fitter/designer determines. If there's a possible flaw in Serotta's model it's that they have a lot of fitters out there and presumably some are better than others.

I agree with the assertion that there are several one-man shops that can provide as good a bike as Ben and Co and I would never assert that only Serotta can make a best-quality custom frame. However I don't buy the proposition that a Legend = Spectrum simply because they're both butted Ti.

I'm sorry to sound 'acrimonious' I would rather say I have a different view than the majority of the posts in this thread.

[Chance]

i don't know if i buy into the better/worse comment, but the ten years is about the time span in which the high profile race involvement simply vanished atmo. the association the bicycle had with the sport, especially that it was always part of a winning combination, paid back in spades.
Maybe there is a direct connection. Or the timing could be coincidental to other factors that occurred during the last ten years.

The Internet blossomed and made marketing hype more difficult to substantiate (not stating that Serotta is based on hype). Independent product ratings and personal comparisons between similar items is now commonplace. Prior to 2000 that wasn’t the case at the same level and speed. Contrary opinions are now shared about everything in a manner that reaches potential customers before they make the final decision.

Additionally the world has become a lot smaller in last ten years. Although $500 to $1,000 titanium frames made in China or Taiwan don’t compete directly with “handmade in USA by American craftsmen” frames it does indirectly add lots of pricing pressure by trickling up the food chain. The more cheap frames flood the market the fewer high end frames can find a home. And some customers may start to think that if a $500 frame is rideable then maybe a $2,000 titanium frame may be more than good enough without having to spend $4,000. Basically the item slowly becomes a commodity and loses pricing strength.

Quality is relative to what a person needs. In the video Mr. Serotta mentions that it costs $50 to buy a titanium plate to machine a rear dropout. No doubt the end product looks great and functions great, but how much better does the average Serotta buyer consider it to a much cheaper dropout like those used by Calfee on his carbon bikes or about everyone else on their titanium bikes? Yeah, the Serotta dropout is different but if it cost 3 times more to make does it hold the rear wheel in place three times better? The simple answer is no because everyone else’s dropouts are good enough. The price differential therefore must be justified exclusively on aesthetics. That now works for some but less for many others as hard economic times makes us more conservative on spending.

Lastly, supporting a racing program costs lots of money. It’s most likely cost prohibitive for a small company with limited resources to do at a level commensurate with the brand. That’s were being in the middle is an additional problem. A small one-man firm can sponsor small low-cost teams and be successful. Large companies like Trek can sponsor a professional team for the Tour. However, a mid-size company can’t afford sponsoring the high-cost professional teams and may do their brand damage if they sponsor an amateur team that is “below” their brand’s status and image. What are they going to claim, that some Joe Blow won on their frame?

[forrestw]

I think the main point was that Spectrum doesn't have anything to do with ABG or Chattanooga as your post suggested...
ABG, last I read supplies the tubing that goes into Spectrum frames, yes I was mistaken about where they're welded and corrected that

[laupsi]

Those are the only ways to succeed in business?! Do I even need to list companies that are successful with a very contradictory business model?

The problem that everyone here has with Serotta pricing is not due to the price. It's due to Serotta's inability or unwillingness to educate the consumer on the superiority of their product.

For the Legend frames, for example... educate people and highlight the fact that triple-butted tubes that are tapered and swagged will result in a better quality frame than a double-butted frame with straight tubes. SELL them on the idea of paying the extra money for quality rather than simply leave them to accept the image. Explain that the Classique is the model comparable to every other companies' top-shelf offering that and your top-shelf is vastly superior... hence the higher price tag.

We live in a world where people pay tens of thousands of dollars for watches that are not as reliable as a $50 Timex. A world where people will pay an extra $10k+ for the Mercedes S550 over the S500. Where a golf club membership costs more than a year's tuition in an Ivy League school. I can't imagine that there aren't enough consumers to support a $6k titanium frame or an $8k carbon frame. Just get your sales force behind the concept and educated... in this case, the LBS employees... ALL of them.


++++++1: totally agree and connot understand why most on this thread are touting pricing as THE issue. pricing may be a factor but it isn't the MAIN factor. we all know the difference between a Serotta frame and another, say Parlee, isn't that much and pricing between the two, option for option, isn't that much either. both are pricey, both will sell their product, both have a niche which is the upper tier of the bicycle market.

summed together this higer end market probably isn't doing much worse than any other marketable product or bicycle market. it's grabbing the share that's key. this in turn lends itself to marketing, not pricing.

"Serotta" is a brand, they have their place and their standard. I wouldn't go back and reinvent the company. Serotta is synonymous w/high quality and yes high costs but that is where the company has been and should remain IMHO. For all those unwilling or unable to spend for a "Serotta" there are many other options all competing in a lesser market. Why put "Serotta" there w/them...?

[Kontact]

I don't think we disagree, read what I wrote . If there's a possible flaw in Serotta's model it's that they have a lot of fitters out there and presumably some are better than others.

I agree with the assertion that there are several one-man shops that can provide as good a bike as Ben and Co and I would never assert that only Serotta can make a best-quality custom frame. However I don't buy the proposition that a Legend = Spectrum simply because they're both butted Ti.

I'm sorry to sound 'acrimonious' I would rather say I have a different view than the majority of the posts in this thread.
Well, given an all ti Legend, maybe this would be a good time to explain to those wondering what you think the important difference are.

I can imagine some of your responses, and I think it should be pointed out that TK and Seven (birthed from Merlin) have long held that mechanical tube manipulation (like swaging) decreases the ride quality and longevity of Ti, which is why their tubes are constant diameter and lathe turned for butting. I don't know who's argument to buy - but they seem to be opinions about ride character, rather than verfiable "features". Both have stuck to their guns for as long as each has offered butted tubing.

[oldpotatoe]

You aren't one?

I work at a Serotta dealer, or maybe former Serotta dealer? We're a small, boutique, high end road shop that has been with Serotta a long time. I haven't heard of any quality problems, but this past year we couldn't get bikes in a timely manner, then we had an "impractical" minimum imposed if we wanted to stay as an authorized dealer.

Essentially, we would have had to regularly sell custom fitted, pricey Serottas during winter, in Wisconsin. That isn't going to happen.

No, don't sell 'em, whole 'nother story.

[Chance]

i think things are changing. transparency is almost inevitable these days. which leaves the true choice not whether information will come out but whether a company facilitates it or appears to be hiding it.

the web and social media are creating a new playing field. some of it is good, some of it may not be, but it's getting harder to keep anything under wraps.

for companies and for us humans, honesty isn't the greatest challenge. accepting the honest truth is.

It's like telling your wife or girlfriend that her butt looks too big. :crap: Not always a good idea even though maybe truthful.

It's bad enough when done privately, but hopefully you would never say it in public in front of others. The point was that we can only be so truthful or honest without getting in trouble.

Additionally, if you are going to tell her the truth it's best to do so if first asked. That's the equivalent of market research. When we volunteer unsolicited information it has a different meaning altogether that can sound much more like criticism.

[forrestw]

Forrest (thread drift):
Butted Spectrum Ti 3900 with fork.
Butted (legend) 5700, plus F3 Fork 800- There is your 2500+ difference.
...
And a last detail, some do specifically not want any carbon on their Ti frames (fork nonwithstanding). Legend does not seem to offer that possibility, which is a shame considering the Legend is arguably the best Ti frame out there.
And if Serotta offered the Classique in butted tubing I assume they would be as close to Spectrum as they are in straight-gauge, which is not $2500 different.

I also compared Similarly equipped fully built bikes from Serotta and Seven and the difference runs around $1000, albeit the least expensive Ti Seven's are a good buy compared to the Classique.

If Serotta frame prices are without fork that's news to me. When I bought my F/F they came as a unit and were priced a bit lower than what the SE costs today.

Also, last I knew you could order a Legend SE with Ti seat stays, dunno if there was a down-charge for that (I assume yes) or if they still do offer it.

[Ahneida Ride]

First off, very few Ti frame makers do single-pass welding, it's a ????e load harder to make a beautiful weld in a single pass and afaik, that's how Serottas are put together.


Are you sure about this? My conversations with Serotta's former
top welder indicates otherwise. He does 2 pass and he clearly
explained it's advantages.

[benb]

It might be faulty to assume bicycle customers are as materialistic as luxury car owners or watch collectors.

People want to assume that market really exists but it might not. The limits of what you can charge for a really expensive bicycle on brand name/cache might be significantly different then what the auto industry or jewelry industry can get away with.

In the end even if you're riding a really expensive bike it is still a fringe activity in the United States and it's not going to help anyone get much status.

If you want to sell a $20k bike you are probably running into the issue that an out of shape customer who is just trying to show off money might decided that an extra $20k of options on his luxury car is a better way to get more status.

[jpw]

It might be faulty to assume bicycle customers are as materialistic as luxury car owners or watch collectors.

People want to assume that market really exists but it might not. The limits of what you can charge for a really expensive bicycle on brand name/cache might be significantly different then what the auto industry or jewelry industry can get away with.

In the end even if you're riding a really expensive bike it is still a fringe activity in the United States and it's not going to help anyone get much status.

If you want to sell a $20k bike you are probably running into the issue that an out of shape customer who is just trying to show off money might decided that an extra $20k of options on his luxury car is a better way to get more status.

Is trying to live a healthy lifestyle a fringe activity? An uber expensive car or watch ain't gonna get that heart pumping. People have their priorities all wrong (not your priorities benb). :) :beer:

[jpw]

Also, last I knew you could order a Legend SE with Ti seat stays, dunno if there was a down-charge for that (I assume yes) or if they still do offer it.

They would be mad to still offer it, absolutely mad. Dropping the carbon stay as an option would be more the way to go. :)

[jpw]

Well, given an all ti Legend, maybe this would be a good time to explain to those wondering what you think the important difference are.

I can imagine some of your responses, and I think it should be pointed out that TK and Seven (birthed from Merlin) have long held that mechanical tube manipulation (like swaging) decreases the ride quality and longevity of Ti, which is why their tubes are constant diameter and lathe turned for butting. I don't know who's argument to buy - but they seem to be opinions about ride character, rather than verfiable "features". Both have stuck to their guns for as long as each has offered butted tubing.

They would need to invest in the machines and tools to offer manipulated tubes. Are they of a size to be able to make such an investment. People often tailor their arguments to match their limitations.

[jpw]

++++++1: totally agree and connot understand why most on this thread are touting pricing as THE issue. pricing may be a factor but it isn't the MAIN factor. we all know the difference between a Serotta frame and another, say Parlee, isn't that much and pricing between the two, option for option, isn't that much either. both are pricey, both will sell their product, both have a niche which is the upper tier of the bicycle market.

summed together this higer end market probably isn't doing much worse than any other marketable product or bicycle market. it's grabbing the share that's key. this in turn lends itself to marketing, not pricing.

"Serotta" is a brand, they have their place and their standard. I wouldn't go back and reinvent the company. Serotta is synonymous w/high quality and yes high costs but that is where the company has been and should remain IMHO. For all those unwilling or unable to spend for a "Serotta" there are many other options all competing in a lesser market. Why put "Serotta" there w/them...?

If the company sells 700 frames in a year and has a cost base for 1500 then there's trouble ahead.

My view of the Legend offering. SE is triple butted main triangle and machined head tube and nice bb and stays - the ultimate titanium road frame. The alternative is a Classique, straight gauge and no frills. Perhaps in the new paradigm Serotta could offer a menu selection so that a customer could say choose a machined head tube, straight gauge top tube, butted down and seat tubes, a standard bb, et.c. It's called fitting the product to the customers wallet or purse size and yet still giving them some features that they would like and that they can afford. In this way a sale is made rather than none at all. I personally don't care for the aesthetics of a 'straight' head tube, but I'm sure riding with a straight gauge tt is not that different to a butted one.

[Kirk007]

I don't think we disagree, read what I wrote . If there's a possible flaw in Serotta's model it's that they have a lot of fitters out there and presumably some are better than others.

I agree with the assertion that there are several one-man shops that can provide as good a bike as Ben and Co and I would never assert that only Serotta can make a best-quality custom frame. However I don't buy the proposition that a Legend = Spectrum simply because they're both butted Ti.

I'm sorry to sound 'acrimonious' I would rather say I have a different view than the majority of the posts in this thread.

Acrimonious was a poor word choice, I was in a hurry. As I've thought about it more I think we disagree only on perceived value. The legend offers features that to you Make it a good value at the price. I can't quite get there; it's not inconceivable that I could come around to that, but I think it unlikely. The Meivici is another story. I don't think I could ever wrap my arms around the cost of that frame. I could have two high end frames for that price.

[WickedWheels]

If the company sells 700 frames in a year and has a cost base for 1500 then there's trouble ahead.

My view of the Legend offering. SE is triple butted main triangle and machined head tube and nice bb and stays - the ultimate titanium road frame. The alternative is a Classique, straight gauge and no frills. Perhaps in the new paradigm Serotta could offer a menu selection so that a customer could say choose a machined head tube, straight gauge top tube, butted down and seat tubes, a standard bb, et.c. It's called fitting the product to the customers wallet or purse size and yet still giving them some features that they would like and that they can afford. In this way a sale is made rather than none at all. I personally don't care for the aesthetics of a 'straight' head tube, but I'm sure riding with a straight gauge tt is not that different to a butted one.

How about this....

One frame for steel, one for ti and one for carbon. All with low entry-level pricing, but with "upcharge" options such as butted tubing, custom geometry, carbon stays, etc.

This will get rid of the image of an over-priced Serotta and level the playing field with other brands for similar stuff. It will also get rid of the "Legend envy" when someone is looking at a Classique. No one will feel like they are being a lower-end model... they will simply get different options with their top-of-the-line model.

[Kirk Pacenti]

If the company sells 700 frames in a year and has a cost base for 1500 then there's trouble ahead.

My view of the Legend offering. SE is triple butted main triangle and machined head tube and nice bb and stays - the ultimate titanium road frame. The alternative is a Classique, straight gauge and no frills. Perhaps in the new paradigm Serotta could offer a menu selection so that a customer could say choose a machined head tube, straight gauge top tube, butted down and seat tubes, a standard bb, et.c. It's called fitting the product to the customers wallet or purse size and yet still giving them some features that they would like and that they can afford. In this way a sale is made rather than none at all. I personally don't care for the aesthetics of a 'straight' head tube, but I'm sure riding with a straight gauge tt is not that different to a butted one.

The suggestions above aren't bad ideas... and, roughly speaking, what Lynskey does. They had a lot of different models designed to hit every price point. And nearly all the features of one model, twisted tubes, PFBB30 shells, integrated head tubes, etc. were available as ala carte up grades to any other model (for very little cost). You could mix and match these features until the frame was unrecognizable as the base model the order started out as. I am not saying it's a good thing, it's just how it was.

I don't think Lynskey is as highly regarded as Serotta. In fact, I'm quite certain they aren't. But (fwiw) in my short time there as production manager, we built on average, 320-340 frames a month and could not keep up with the demand. Granted nearly half of that was OE builds for other companies, but the point is that they were very busy.

I think much of the reason for their workload was that they were willing to build whatever the customer wanted in order to make the sale. Again, I don't think that is always a good thing. There was certainly a price paid by doing stuff that made no sense, dealing with difficult customers and just the general headache of managing the production of what amounted to dozens of 'one-offs' every month. But in the end it was hard to argue with the success they were enjoying because of that policy.

I am not suggesting Serotta does any of these things. No one has the answer to turning Serotta's situation around but Ben. And I am sure he's going to do what he thinks is best for the company. As someone who was heavily influenced by the Serotta brand early on and at one time dreamt of working for the company, I wish them nothing but success in the future. My hope is that they will be around for another 40 years!

Cheers,
KP

[laupsi]

If the company sells 700 frames in a year and has a cost base for 1500 then there's trouble ahead.

My view of the Legend offering. SE is triple butted main triangle and machined head tube and nice bb and stays - the ultimate titanium road frame. The alternative is a Classique, straight gauge and no frills. Perhaps in the new paradigm Serotta could offer a menu selection so that a customer could say choose a machined head tube, straight gauge top tube, butted down and seat tubes, a standard bb, et.c. It's called fitting the product to the customers wallet or purse size and yet still giving them some features that they would like and that they can afford. In this way a sale is made rather than none at all. I personally don't care for the aesthetics of a 'straight' head tube, but I'm sure riding with a straight gauge tt is not that different to a butted one.


the proof of course would lie in the number of sales this type of choice would generate and at what cost. again, other manufacturers already offer such options, would it do anything to the Serotta brand? proof would only be known if implemented.

[Kontact]

They would need to invest in the machines and tools to offer manipulated tubes. Are they of a size to be able to make such an investment. People often tailor their arguments to match their limitations.
And someone who has invested in tooling is unlikely to abandon it.

However, TK maintained this stance even when he had access to all of Litespeed's swaging equipment. I have a Litespeed with a Colorado style tapered downtube.

And Seven could buy Reynolds butted tubing, but lathe turn it instead.

Those all sound like choices, not tied hands.

[Andrewlcox]

If the company sells 700 frames in a year and has a cost base for 1500 then there's trouble ahead.


I agree. With 365 days in a year minus weekends and holidays they are making about 3 bikes a week. With the employees he has now, Serotta could probably crank out that volume in 1 day a week. I understand a major scale back (selling the farm house) to his manufacturing process once I see those kinds of numbers.

If Serotta chooses to go Custom Fit only and keep prices as high as they are or higher, I fear more of the same for them. It kinda reminds me of my Illinois Government wanting to raise taxes on only the rich even though everyone knows that's not going to solve any problems. My friend just bought a $3000 Trek because he is spontaneous like so many people. Scaling back on dealers and Ready Custom will only lead to fewer bikes, fewer employees and smaller manufacturing facility. If that's what it takes to keep Serotta alive, more power to them.

Good luck to Serotta and I can't wait to someday order my Legend.
Andy

[grateful]

I think that one of the problems for custom manufacturers (those who sell thru the LBS) is that the big boys (Trek, Specialized, etc.) put such a high demand on the shops capital that the staff is pressed into selling the big boy's product. To state the obvious, it is the big boy brand that defines most shop's profitability. Sure there are shops that cater to the educated fringe but those are few.

If your livelyhood requires that you sell a certain number of Treks per year and you are always pressed to sell more are you going to try to illuminate the customer as to why a Serotta is better than the bike they saw Lance win the Tour on or are you going to go the easy route and sell the customer the bike that he knows? You sell the Trek, you make your money and you keep Trek from opening the shop around the corner.

[Smiley]

I think that one of the problems for custom manufacturers (those who sell thru the LBS) is that the big boys (Trek, Specialized, etc.) put such a high demand on the shops capital that the staff is pressed into selling the big boy's product. To state the obvious, it is the big boy brand that defines most shop's profitability. Sure there are shops that cater to the educated fringe but those are few.

If your livelyhood requires that you sell a certain number of Treks per year and you are always pressed to sell more are you going to try to illuminate the customer as to why a Serotta is better than the bike they saw Lance win the Tour on or are you going to go the easy route and sell the customer the bike that he knows? You sell the Trek, you make your money and you keep Trek from opening the shop around the corner.
Yeah,
That sums it up for bike shops your Local HVAC contractor pushing Trane, Carrier or York on you or for that matter a fact alot of business that are bank rolled in their inventory with the business.
So shop wisely and do your homework.

Great post and hence why Serotta's business model must change as they HAVE NO CLOUT with shops anymore as they probably never had that much to begin with.

[oldpotatoe]

I think that one of the problems for custom manufacturers (those who sell thru the LBS) is that the big boys (Trek, Specialized, etc.) put such a high demand on the shops capital that the staff is pressed into selling the big boy's product. To state the obvious, it is the big boy brand that defines most shop's profitability. Sure there are shops that cater to the educated fringe but those are few.

If your livelyhood requires that you sell a certain number of Treks per year and you are always pressed to sell more are you going to try to illuminate the customer as to why a Serotta is better than the bike they saw Lance win the Tour on or are you going to go the easy route and sell the customer the bike that he knows? You sell the Trek, you make your money and you keep Trek from opening the shop around the corner.

Yep, why Serotta ought to be looking for bike shops that DON'T sell the big boys. There are actually more than you might think. In Boulder, there are 3.

At least 3 in the bay area, 2 in Madison, 2 in Portland, if not more, ETC.

[Kontact]

There are five bike shops within 1 mile here in town. One has Trek, one is all Specialized. That leaves 3 other shops to offer whatever they want. I doubt that is an uncommon situation.

Serotta has to want to be represented in shops.

[Andrewlcox]

Yep, why Serotta ought to be looking for bike shops that DON'T sell the big boys. There are actually more than you might think. In Boulder, there are 3.

At least 3 in the bay area, 2 in Madison, 2 in Portland, if not more, ETC.

Brilliant! It could be like a grass roots movement to building the brand instead of trying to compete with Trek and Giant in the same LBS.

[grateful]

I used to work for one of Serotta's most direct competitors and when we were looking to open new shops the first thing we would do is identify the Trek and Specialized shop. That is where we were told that we wanted to be.

In hindsight, I don't know if that was the right course of action. When it came time for us to ask (demand) that the shop order a minimum of bikes for their floor we invariable heard that Trek/Specialized was demanding all of the free capital for their pre-season orders.

The shop typically wanted to invest in inventory that would sell. That is tough on the custom manufacturer. The shops would argue against ordering the floor models because no one interested in a custom frame was going to buy stock geometry. But if there is no brand presence on the shop floor the custom manufacturer is out of sight out of mind.

My two cents (if it is worth even that) is that Serotta should be looking at shops not affiliated with the big brands other than an obvious few exceptions. Some of my former employer's largest dealers ended up being the one or two man shop and those that operated on an appointment basis that knew why they carried the brands that they did and could elaborate on why that bike was a great value. How can you do that in a shop overrun with the very bike that won the Tour de France?

[Smiley]

I used to work for one of Serotta's most direct competitors and when we were looking to open new shops the first thing we would do is identify the Trek and Specialized shop. That is where we were told that we wanted to be.

In hindsight, I don't know if that was the right course of action. When it came time for us to ask (demand) that the shop order a minimum of bikes for their floor we invariable heard that Trek/Specialized was demanding all of the free capital for their pre-season orders.

The shop typically wanted to invest in inventory that would sell. That is tough on the custom manufacturer. The shops would argue against ordering the floor models because no one interested in a custom frame was going to buy stock geometry. But, if there is no brand presence on the shop floor the custom manufacturer is out of sight out of mind.

My two cents (if it is worth even that) is that Serotta should be looking at shops not affiliated with the big brands other than an obvious few exceptions. Some of my former employer's largest dealers ended up being the one or two man shop and those that operated on an appointment basis that knew why they carried the brands that they did and could elaborate on why that bike was a great value. How can you do that in a shop overrun with the very bike that won the Tour de France?


To make it as a Serotta shop you needed to order floor models and this was a HUGE nut to crack to order a Serotta non custom and deeply discount it after the season.....if you could. Small shops are hard pressed for this first cost capitol investment. I should know was a Serotta rep and competing for inventory bucks was very difficult. Well said and obviously an insider to the trade.

[Chance]

I don't think Lynskey is as highly regarded as Serotta. In fact, I'm quite certain they aren't. But (fwiw) in my short time there as production manager, we built on average, 320-340 frames a month and could not keep up with the demand. Granted nearly half of that was OE builds for other companies, but the point is that they were very busy.

On that line of thinking…..

Is building OE for other companies still an option for companies with excess capacity (to help spread overhead costs) or does the industry have too much titanium capacity compared to total demand? Do other US companies have idle titanium capacity/equipment too?

Also on that subject (or similar angle) is creating a secondary brand below Serotta an option? (Don’t actually expect anyone here to have an answer) Simplifying Serotta designs too much could dilute and weaken the brand. However, could a lower cost entry level brand be competitive or are high costs too imbedded? Under a separate brand a company can simplify the design to keep costs lower and deal only in stock geometries to allow more efficient mass production. The down side is that it may cannibalize the main brand.

[rugbysecondrow]

Like Gunnar?

On that line of thinking…..

Is building OE for other companies still an option for companies with excess capacity (to help spread overhead costs) or does the industry have too much titanium capacity compared to total demand? Do other US companies have idle titanium capacity/equipment too?

Also on that subject (or similar angle) is creating a secondary brand below Serotta an option? (Don’t actually expect anyone here to have an answer) Simplifying Serotta designs too much could dilute and weaken the brand. However, could a lower cost entry level brand be competitive or are high costs too imbedded? Under a separate brand a company can simplify the design to keep costs lower and deal only in stock geometries to allow more efficient mass production. The down side is that it may cannibalize the main brand.

[Fixed]

Yep, why Serotta ought to be looking for bike shops that DON'T sell the big boys. There are actually more than you might think. In Boulder, there are 3.

At least 3 in the bay area, 2 in Madison, 2 in Portland, if not more, ETC.
good idea there are a couple near me
cheers

[Pete Serotta]

great thread and I apologize for my past closing . Pete

[jpw]

How about this....

One frame for steel, one for ti and one for carbon. All with low entry-level pricing, but with "upcharge" options such as butted tubing, custom geometry, carbon stays, etc.

This will get rid of the image of an over-priced Serotta and level the playing field with other brands for similar stuff. It will also get rid of the "Legend envy" when someone is looking at a Classique. No one will feel like they are being a lower-end model... they will simply get different options with their top-of-the-line model.

Sounds a good basis for a new approach to me. No company can successfully impose a business model on the market. The market decides, and it seems the market has decided that Serotta's model wasn't what it wanted.

Steel - an uber road frame for the gentleman cyclist, and maybe an affordable 'sexy' single speeder for the urban hipster youth.

Titanium - a base model, and an a la cart menu of upgrades to cater for all tastes and wallets.

carbon - tricky. Serotta's in a bit of a corner with its visibly lugged construction. Most of the market isn't showing carbon frames like that. It's a differentiation, but consumers can be conservative in their choices (the herding instinct), and so is it seen as 'distinctive' or 'odd'? Still, one base model and another menu of upgrades.

Build an inventory of the base models 'raw' and offer them up with paint and decal customization options, and then turn custom when the customer asks for the menu selection. In this way a frame will avoid not selling just because "that shade of red just isn't quite to my taste, and if only they'd asked me first before painting it".

[dan_hudson]

Wow... at 16 pages, kinda intimidating to reply! But a couple thoughts/ideas.

Like many here, I was hooked on Serotta during the racing days. Mr Serotta gave a seminar sponsored by a local dealer, touting the advantages of the Colorado approach while surrounded by glistening steeds in Coors Light livery. All made so much sense, I was hooked! Saved me pennies and a year later replaced my Trek 1200 with a Colorado II. Have a later-model Legend Ti now, and the spouse had a 2nd hand Colorado HT w/ 3D disc drops that was about the hottest MTB I've ever seen (but sadly just didn't fit well - thus the "had").

Which brings up one point that I haven't seen mentioned after plowing thru the 16 pages. The positive effects of MTB on Serotta's peers. Pretty much each of which is just as renown for their fat tired rides as their road frames. Perhaps MTB sales for Moots/IF/Seven have mellowed sales fluctuations in a way not available to Serotta? Especially circa-2011, where the to-die-for road bike for a typical enthusiast is 12# carbon wunderbike but for MTBer a metal 29er (singlespeed! rigid fork!) is the bee's-knees? (witness Mr Brunk's latest rides).

Circling back to the first paragraph, MTB (or CX) could be a cost effective way for Serotta to be relevant again in the racing pages. Never going to be practical to sponsor Sky et al these days. But a solid pro & grassroots program for dirt disciplines? I recall someone mentioning that IF didn't sponsor a team. But they have been a force in grassroots MTB racing, at least in the east and on the singlespeed & marathon circuit. Until just recently (and not coincidently, as it seems IF has scaled back their grassroots program), you'd see an amazing number of IF bikes at these events and on the trails.

Like most here, I fervently hope Serotta can figure out a way to continue. And if you are reading, a request - please again make a Colorado HT! I'm in the market for an new MTB and would kill to have a Serotta (which is *not* the regular old TiMax with stock Paragon drops). In the rocky east the Ottrott MTB isn't a practical option. While you don't pursue it, I know your staff makes a smokin' mountain bike. Colorado & Ti, what Serotta means to me.

[jpw]

Wow... at 16 pages, kinda intimidating to reply! But a couple thoughts/ideas.

Like many here, I was hooked on Serotta during the racing days. Mr Serotta gave a seminar sponsored by a local dealer, touting the advantages of the Colorado approach while surrounded by glistening steeds in Coors Light livery. All made so much sense, I was hooked! Saved me pennies and a year later replaced my Trek 1200 with a Colorado II. Have a later-model Legend Ti now, and the spouse had a 2nd hand Colorado HT w/ 3D disc drops that was about the hottest MTB I've ever seen (but sadly just didn't fit well - thus the "had").

Which brings up one point that I haven't seen mentioned after plowing thru the 16 pages. The positive effects of MTB on Serotta's peers. Pretty much each of which is just as renown for their fat tired rides as their road frames. Perhaps MTB sales for Moots/IF/Seven have mellowed sales fluctuations in a way not available to Serotta? Especially circa-2011, where the to-die-for road bike for a typical enthusiast is 12# carbon wunderbike but for MTBer a metal 29er (singlespeed! rigid fork!) is the bee's-knees? (witness Mr Brunk's latest rides).

Circling back to the first paragraph, MTB (or CX) could be a cost effective way for Serotta to be relevant again in the racing pages. Never going to be practical to sponsor Sky et al these days. But a solid pro & grassroots program for dirt disciplines? I recall someone mentioning that IF didn't sponsor a team. But they have been a force in grassroots MTB racing, at least in the east and on the singlespeed & marathon circuit. Until just recently (and not coincidently, as it seems IF has scaled back their grassroots program), you'd see an amazing number of IF bikes at these events and on the trails.

Like most here, I fervently hope Serotta can figure out a way to continue. And if you are reading, a request - please again make a Colorado HT! I'm in the market for an new MTB and would kill to have a Serotta (which is *not* the regular old TiMax with stock Paragon drops). In the rocky east the Ottrott MTB isn't a practical option. While you don't pursue it, I know your staff makes a smokin' mountain bike. Colorado & Ti, what Serotta means to me.

Sponsorship might still be possible if a group of 'indy' builders came together and sponsored a team under a title sponsor, say an 'awareness' not-for-profit, and each rider was individually sponsored by a builder to ride their brand of bike. Share the cost but gain the exposure.

[dekindy]

I have been on vacation this week and have not been on the forum so I am catching up.

I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week. It is there decision and I respect that is their choice. However I think part of being a craftsman is growing your craft and getting product to more than just a few people a year. 2,000 bikes per year is an average of 40 a week. Most sole proprietors don't make more than 40 bikes a year to put Serotta's production in perspective. So I applaud Ben Serotta for taking craftmanship to a volume level and for the vertical integration he attempted with fitting and sourcing carbon, etc. And he has achieved this over a very long time which is even more impressive.

Obviously Ben Serotta has yet another challenge to overcome. So what else is new in business. Also as usual there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks putting their two cents worth in which is nothing new either.

A big good luck to Serotta.

[Ti Designs]

OK, Here's an idea. A while back another big name got itself into a financial mess. Think of the one name from your childhood (if you were born after 1980, ask your parents) that goes with bikes - Schwinn. The name has been bought and sold so many times, nobody knows where they come from or who's selling them. There is still a member of the Schwinn family in the bike industry, but his company bears the name of the factory and town where the Paramount frames were made. If all else fails, I think Saratoga would be a great name for a frame. You don't even have to change the head decal...

This from a guy who thought a Ben bobblehead was a good idea...

[Lifelover]

...
I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week. It is there decision and I respect that is their choice. However I think part of being a craftsman is growing your craft and getting product to more than just a few people a year. 2,000 bikes per year is an average of 40 a week. Most sole proprietors don't make more than 40 bikes a year to put Serotta's production in perspective. So I applaud Ben Serotta for taking craftmanship to a volume level and for the vertical integration he attempted with fitting and sourcing carbon, etc. And he has achieved this over a very long time which is even more impressive.

Obviously Ben Serotta has yet another challenge to overcome. So what else is new in business. Also as usual there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks putting their two cents worth in which is nothing new either.

A big good luck to Serotta.


I don't always agree with your positions, but this post is spot on!

[Charles M]

I have been on vacation this week and have not been on the forum so I am catching up.

I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week. It is there decision and I respect that is their choice. However I think part of being a craftsman is growing your craft and getting product to more than just a few people a year. 2,000 bikes per year is an average of 40 a week. Most sole proprietors don't make more than 40 bikes a year to put Serotta's production in perspective. So I applaud Ben Serotta for taking craftmanship to a volume level and for the vertical integration he attempted with fitting and sourcing carbon, etc. And he has achieved this over a very long time which is even more impressive.

Obviously Ben Serotta has yet another challenge to overcome. So what else is new in business. Also as usual there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks putting their two cents worth in which is nothing new either.

A big good luck to Serotta.


I pretty regularly agree with you but not on this one...


If I were a talented builder and could manage a frame a week, while riding and raising a family and had an appropriate level of craftsmanship to demand a price that paid me what I needed to live the way I wanted, I wouldnt give a rats a$$ what someone else thought my priorities should be.


In fact, if I had to pick the two least happy guys on the surface in the bike business they might be Mike Sinyard and John Burke. I dont mean that they're not nice guys and they're arguably the two best business men in cycling. I cant think of another man that does more for cycling and cyclists in fact that John B...


But I wouldn't judge any bike builder's qualifying as a "Craftsman" by volume any more than I would any other artist.

[Kontact]

I have been on vacation this week and have not been on the forum so I am catching up.

I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week. It is there decision and I respect that is their choice. However I think part of being a craftsman is growing your craft and getting product to more than just a few people a year. 2,000 bikes per year is an average of 40 a week. Most sole proprietors don't make more than 40 bikes a year to put Serotta's production in perspective. So I applaud Ben Serotta for taking craftmanship to a volume level and for the vertical integration he attempted with fitting and sourcing carbon, etc. And he has achieved this over a very long time which is even more impressive.

Obviously Ben Serotta has yet another challenge to overcome. So what else is new in business. Also as usual there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks putting their two cents worth in which is nothing new either.

A big good luck to Serotta.
I don't understand. Are you saying that all craftsmen have a responsibility to stop building things with their own hands and becoming employers instead?

Are we running out of bike builders, or are you concerned that there are too many different building styles and would like to see all those individual builders working for a couple of the biggest names? Because it isn't like demand exceeds capacity in the US custom market, and if every builder is supposed to be making 10 times more bikes, how many independant builders can there be?

[Climb01742]

I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week. It is there decision and I respect that is their choice. However I think part of being a craftsman is growing your craft and getting product to more than just a few people a year. 2,000 bikes per year is an average of 40 a week. Most sole proprietors don't make more than 40 bikes a year to put Serotta's production in perspective. So I applaud Ben Serotta for taking craftmanship to a volume level and for the vertical integration he attempted with fitting and sourcing carbon, etc. And he has achieved this over a very long time which is even more impressive.

Obviously Ben Serotta has yet another challenge to overcome. So what else is new in business. Also as usual there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks putting their two cents worth in which is nothing new either.

A big good luck to Serotta.

is not what you write before the sentence in bold exactly what you condemn in that sentence? so it's fine for you to put in your two cents worth to 'craftsmen' builders (to the extent of feeling 'disgusted'), but not for anyone else to comment on serotta? could you kindly explain the philosophical somersault that position requires?

[Kirk Pacenti]

...but his company bears the name of the factory and town where the Paramount frames were made. If all else fails, I think Saratoga would be a great name for a frame. You don't even have to change the head decal...



Didn't they do this at one point? I am 99% certain that I saw a frame in a Seattle area Serotta dealer years ago that was clearly a 'Serotta', but bearing the name Saratoga on the down tube. As a long time Serotta dealer, maybe you've seen these too? Was I imagining it, or are you being ironic? ;)

Cheers,
KP

[avalonracing]

You are not imagining it, there was a Saratoga labeled frame by Serotta.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Why did they discontinue them?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Why did they discontinue them?

. . . is that this was a Colorado(?) frame made especially for sale by a particular store in San Francisco. Not sure when or how long they were made or how many. I'm sure there is someone else here who knows more complete details.

BBD

[SamIAm]

I am disgusted at the talented, individual builders that have all the expertise in the world but are putting out a bike a week

Huh? Did I read that right? Did you mean, "I am disappointed that the individual builders with all the expertise in the world can't put out more than a bike a week without compromising the essence, enjoyment and quality of what they do?"

[Pete Serotta]

is always possible if you have other folks on your team doing some of the activity from order taking, customer interaction, parts and material ordering, painting, interaction with painter, office management, life with family and even finding time for riding.

From a single person company, (lugged frame builder), 50 bikes a year custom is a lot (if they are still to have a life and very little assistance).


Just my observation over the years. One of the other jobs of a builder is too attract new customers and their new orders. :bike:


PETE

[Ti Designs]

Didn't they do this at one point? I am 99% certain that I saw a frame in a Seattle area Serotta dealer years ago that was clearly a 'Serotta', but bearing the name Saratoga on the down tube. As a long time Serotta dealer, maybe you've seen these too? Was I imagining it, or are you being ironic? ;)


I've seen Serottas under a bunch of names but never Saratoga. It even seems like some people within the company had their own little project bikes at some point. There's a track bike called the Big Dig, named after a hole in Boston which they tried to fill with cash. It was a Serotta, but Kelly didn't know much about them, said it was Ben's thing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I've seen Serottas under a bunch of names but never Saratoga. It even seems like some people within the company had their own little project bikes at some point. There's a track bike called the Big Dig, named after a hole in Boston which they tried to fill with cash. It was a Serotta, but Kelly didn't know much about them, said it was Ben's thing.


. . . of the "Saratoga" bikes on eBay and there have been several mentions of them here. I seem to remember they were built to be sold at the 'Frisco shop where Robin Williams also buys all his bikes.

(BTW, if you really want to tick off a 'Frisco city snob, just call it 'Frisco. THEY always call it "The City" as if there is no other in the world. I loved doing it when I lived out there 20 years ago. :D )

BBD

[rwsaunders]

Don't forget the Glider brand...rebadged Serotta's for CycleFit in England...

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/images/bikes/LARGE/TUPELO_ti_bike_XL.jpg

[alexstar]

. . . of the "Saratoga" bikes on eBay and there have been several mentions of them here. I seem to remember they were built to be sold at the 'Frisco shop where Robin Williams also buys all his bikes.

Yeah, these were built for City Cycle, though I have heard that there was another shop somewhere that sold them.

(BTW, if you really want to tick off a 'Frisco city snob, just call it 'Frisco.

As proclaimed in 1872 by Joshua Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico, "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco," which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars." We're just following his decree, although some San Franciscans do call it 'Frisco with wanton disregard for His Majesty.

THEY always call it "The City" as if there is no other in the world.

Well... No other city that matters ;) But really, it has always been called The City because it has historically been the biggest, most important city in the area; and if you said you were going to the city, it was understood that you were going to San Francisco.

-Alex (displaced San Franciscan)

[forrestw]

Acrimonious was a poor word choice, I was in a hurry. As I've thought about it more I think we disagree only on perceived value. The legend offers features that to you Make it a good value at the price. I can't quite get there; it's not inconceivable that I could come around to that, but I think it unlikely. The Meivici is another story. I don't think I could ever wrap my arms around the cost of that frame. I could have two high end frames for that price.
I was likewise in a rush when I posted. Yup evaluations of value are individual and my only buyer's remorse was the result of being laid off shortly after writing the deposit check on the Legend -- oof. I'm also with you on the value of an all carbon frame, but I can still see the allure.

You're a Kirk owner, right? I'm impressed with his 'Terraplane' S-bend seat stays and while I think Serotta's carbon is a better choice than steel for this, and I'd be scared to try to make that work myself, I'm very impressed with his design and i'm sure it gets 80% of the benefit of the Serotta design for a fraction of the cost. Classic 80:20 rule :-). I usually try to stay on the other side of 80:20.

[WickedWheels]

I think that one of the problems for custom manufacturers (those who sell thru the LBS) is that the big boys (Trek, Specialized, etc.) put such a high demand on the shops capital that the staff is pressed into selling the big boy's product. To state the obvious, it is the big boy brand that defines most shop's profitability. Sure there are shops that cater to the educated fringe but those .

It's not the tied up capital. A Trek dealer doesn't want to sell a Serotta because it's too much work compared to selling a Trek. If a customer wants to drop $8k on a bike then he will get a top of the line US-made carbon fiber Trek with Dura-Ace equipment. That bike will be available in 2 days, if the dealer is not stocking it. In 3 years it will be obsolete and the customer will want the newer model so the dealer gets another sale. It's about a quicker turn-over at decent margins and repeat sales.

If that same dealer is selling a Serotta, then there is a long wait, the customer is not getting the top of the line model, has to go through a lengthy fit process and wait for the bike. The spontaneity is gone. It is tougher to close the sale.

That's why I think that a 3 stock models at moderate price points will be the answer. If the customer wants custom options then they are available, but at an up charge. If the customer does not want to wait then there will be a production model available quickly.

[Point Grey]

Saratoga was the name used for a stock frame a few shops ordered. It was the predecessor to the Fierte line.
Ed, ask Craig at IBC as they sold the Saratoga



I've seen Serottas under a bunch of names but never Saratoga. It even seems like some people within the company had their own little project bikes at some point. There's a track bike called the Big Dig, named after a hole in Boston which they tried to fill with cash. It was a Serotta, but Kelly didn't know much about them, said it was Ben's thing.