Chris King Hubs

[jhcakilmer]

I'm interested to hear about peoples experience with Chris King hubs. A close friend, and member of this forum said that the hubs had considerable bearing drag. This sounded kind of funny, especially considering the cost of the hubs, and the renow/ned quality that CK is know for. Is this true? If so, why? Are there remidies? Thanks

[dirtdigger88]

the drag is in the ring drive (more engagement prawls) not in the bearings-

it only happens when you coast-

and then the hubs are screaming so loud who the h*ll cares

Ive got a killer set of kings on dt 1.1s Id sell you to try out

Jason

[pdxmech13]

I wouldn't sell'em.

[11.4]

I've ridden Chris King hubs for a number of years. They have those who love them, those who hate them.

The bearing drag issue has a couple facets. First, the bearings have user-serviceable seals that do in fact have a certain amount of drag but also provide much better sealing. Also, the bearings are set in plastic clips that are self-scrubbing -- they rub against the balls themselves and clean off any dirt that might get inside -- and this creates some of the drag as well (remove the seals completely and you still feel the drag even as you are staring at the clips). Second, the ring drive itself has superb engagement but the mechanism has a bit more resistance than, say, current high end Campy wheelsets but no more than most other hubsets. Third, the drag you feel while holding the hub in your hand or spinning the wheel on the bike has no relation to how it performs while loaded. The actual rolling performance of the hubs was studied to death years ago by Tour Magazin and others and shown to be equivalent to or better than most of the rest.

The freehub ring-drive assembly requires a very light lube. While CK makes what they call RingLube for this purpose, they also recommend straight TriFlow. For road use the TriFlow works very well and reduces drag a hair. But the RingLube really suppresses the buzz of the freehub when coasting.

What not to like about CK's?

1. Shimano only. You can't get a Campy freehub for them and they don't seem willing to come up with one.
2. They don't warranty radial spoking. That being said, I've never seen a radially spoked CK hub fail and I've seen a lot of them. Actually the only case I ever saw had also been the victim of a car accident where the wheel had been run over by a car. No surprise it broke.
3. CK public relations are somewhat mixed. They are big supporters of the Komen Foundation (breast cancer). On the other hand, they demand draconian retailer agreements and they don't have competitive employee purchase programs for retail store employees -- the result: bike store employees tend to grump about them and some stores won't carry them (and then have to diss them to explain why).
4. The noise. When freewheeling, they are one of the loudest hubs out there, but for that you get one of the best engagement mechanisms. DT is quieter and very close in engagement quality, so it's an alternative to consider if the noise really gets to you. However, I rarely freewheel so this isn't an issue for me and when I do coast, it's not that intolerable. If you are used to riding the almost silent Mavic hubsets, you may not like CK's.
5. If you use off-brand cassettes you may encounter problems with the innermost cog rubbing on the spokes. This is only because their spider or cog wasn't engineered to clear the right flange properly. It's not a problem with any Shimano cassettes. I don't think this is a criticism of King.

What to like?

1. Great colors. (OK, that's not really reason number one.)
2. Bombproof reliability. I've ridden wheels through a whole winter of heavy rain and muck and the only dirt I find is on the outside of the seals -- the insides are pristine. I have one pair of CK's with about 25,000 miles and it's only been lubricated twice. At this point I'm ignoring it intentionally just to see if I can kill it and then get another color.
3. Easy repair. Unless you are actually pulling bearings you don't need the tool kit. Two 5 mm allen keys and a can of TriFlow and you don't need anything else.
4. The inter-flange distance in the rear is one of the highest among current hubs (56.5 mm, I believe) so it builds one of the strongest wheels possible in a 10-speed variety. The dish is not as dramatic as on some popular hubs and with the wide flange spacing you get a more reliable wheel.
5. CK is very sensitive to environmental issues -- they stopped producing components in certain colors whose anodization involved reagents particularly toxic in the environment.
6. Very good customer service -- if I've had to send them an item for any problem, it comes back next day on their nickel and it's always fixed with a clear explanation of what went wrong.

I can't tell you to love CK hubs. They are pricey, they are noisier, and some people like to diss them. However, they are a quality level worth the money and if you like the positive features, you'll never let them go.

[dirtdigger88]

11.4-

how many words can you type a minute-

oh and +1

Jason

[Fixed]

over priced imho bro
cheers

[obtuse]

mechanically the hubs are excellent. nonetheless, i do not like the way they build up for 700c rear wheels. the non-drive spoke tension is always extremely low compared to the drive side and as 11.4 said, chris king doesn't allow for radial spoking.

we've debated ad nauseam the effects of equalizing spoke tension has on wheels and the effect of flange distanc and all the rest....still i'm not a fan of the resulting spoke tension on a chris king rear wheel when built to a shallow section 700c rim.

anyway,

obtuse

[coylifut]

wow, i always loved my ck hubs because they survive mudy cross races. i didn't know there was all those other reasons

[hess]

A close friend, and member of this forum said that the hubs had considerable bearing drag. If so, why? Are there remidies?


i hope somebody does some testing on drag in the near future so discussions about drag related to hubs and bottom brackets will end.

seriously....how many hundreths of a kilowatt are you worried about wasting on those weekend club rides?







What not to like about CK's?

2. They don't warranty radial spoking.

i enjoy this fact most of all......since radial spoking offers no real performance advantage....




3. they don't have competitive employee purchase programs for retail store employees -- the result: bike store employees tend to grump about them and some stores won't carry them (and then have to diss them to explain why).

HUH? you mean like REI or _bike_ shops? i picked up a single speed hubset and classic hubset for $200 per set through the EP program......as a mechanic, i think that's a _VERY_ good deal.

i've never heard any mechanic complain about CK prices....




4. The noise. When freewheeling, they are one of the loudest hubs out there

the last 45 or so wheels i've built with kings have been VERY quite....these were everything from road classics to mountain discs.....

they have been filling them with more Ring Drive grease from the factory for 2006 so the majority of sets have been near silent....i've had customers ask me what can be done to make them a bit more noisy.

in most cases it comes down to the lubricant used. if you experiement with the amount of RD grease used....you can change how loud the rings are.....

on that note, abnd refering to an earlier statement.....i want to make sure that you also understand that while King recommends using TriFlow....please note that it is recommended "in a pinch" and is not to be a replacement lubricant for the Ring Drive grease.

also, on that note....NOT using the hub tool to take the hub apart for _complete_ service leaves lots of residue in areas of the hub that can't be reached.....

when i worked at King...there was extensive testing done with LOTS of cleaners and solvents to see which would _completely_ (i can't stress that word enough...we wanted a SPOTLESS interior) clean out the hub _without_ a full service with the hub tool...in every case we found gritty residue and solvent in various nooks and crannys that would eventually mix with the RD grease and reduce the effectiveness.

in cases where there was bearing failure the questionaire done by the phone reps would come back marked None when the customer was asked how many times the hub was serviced with the hub tool.







They are pricey....

i think if more people read the PUCK (http://www.chrisking.com/pucks/index.html) article, they'd understand that the colors, light weight, and superior engaement mechanism are just a small, tiny, miniscue reason that they cost a slight bit more....


and while i did work there....i wasn't exactly when you'd call a "fan" of the King product....but after seeing how they opperate and the lengths they go to...it was hard to hate going to work....

i'm currently riding a 10 year old set of classics which have been serviced with the hub tool about every 6 months. not a _single_ part from hub has worn out or been replaced. i bought these at full retail as i wasn't working at a shop at the time. $350 for the set over the course of 10 years equals to $35 dollars a year for a trouble free service life...

[ti_boi]

I'm interested to hear about peoples experience with Chris King hubs. A close friend, and member of this forum said that the hubs had considerable bearing drag. This sounded kind of funny, especially considering the cost of the hubs, and the renow/ned quality that CK is know for. Is this true? If so, why? Are there remidies? Thanks


They are loud enough to scare animals and small children....is bearing drag something you wear with a pair of satin pumps?

[michael white]

funny.
I have a pair of DT hubs on one bike. They are REALLY noisy, I think subsequently they made them quieter. But when I hear that noise, I think, oh yeah these are my good wheels . . . Mostly I'm just happy with ultegra or whatever.

[gt6267a]

funny.
I have a pair of DT hubs on one bike. They are REALLY noisy, I think subsequently they made them quieter. But when I hear that noise, I think, oh yeah these are my good wheels . . . Mostly I'm just happy with ultegra or whatever.

i have a pair of hugi 240 on the road bike. they are maybe 8-9 years old. they are loud. i have a new pair of dt 240s on the mtn bike. they are almost silent.

[J.Greene]

I am one that believes they have a noticable ammount of drag over other wheels. I'm not saying thats a con though. In my mind better seals=more drag. They are great hubs. I wish they'd engineer a campy compatible hub.

JG

[Grant McLean]

I am one that believes they have a noticable ammount of drag over other wheels. I'm not saying thats a con though. In my mind better seals=more drag. They are great hubs. I wish they'd engineer a campy compatible hub.

JG

I think the 'drag' issue is only unweighted, as 11.4 explains.
Once the bearing is preloaded, the friction of the seal is tiny.

+1 on the campy version.

The noise level on any hub is just as much about the lube as
the design. My Campy record hubs on the Geesawa were screamin'
loud. A couple of drops of lube, and they're silent.

g

[Jeremy]

I wish they'd engineer a campy compatible hub.JG

King would have to use a significantly smaller axle diameter to build a Campy compatible hub. The ID of a Campy cassette body is smaller than that of a Shimano. The smaller ID does not allow for the oversized axle (as it passes through the cassette body) that King currently uses.

Jeremy

[Grant McLean]

King would have to use a significantly smaller axle diameter to build a Campy compatible hub. The ID of a Campy cassette body is smaller than that of a Shimano. The smaller ID does not allow for the oversized axle (as it passes through the cassette body) that King currently uses.

Jeremy

Yes, that's typical Chris King thinking. Design the part to optimize the engineering,
but by making that choice, they miss the fact that the part is useless to half
the market. Mavic got it right when they woke up and realized all their road
wheels should be designed to have interchangeable freehub bodies. Some
people own both, and would like to switch between them, and bikeshops love
it, becuase they can have both in stock. Zipp did the same.

(don't get me started on integrated headsets!! :) )

g

[fiamme red]

Yes, that's typical Chris King thinking. Design the part to optimize the engineering,
but by making that choice, they miss the fact that the part is useless to half the market.Campagnolo users are half the market? :confused: :) :rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

Campagnolo users are half the market? :confused: :) :rolleyes:

sorry, you're right, the 60% of the high end market that's campy.

:)

g

[Len J]

sorry, you're right, the 60% of the high end market that's campy.

:)

g

being behind a King Hub in a group ride.......if there is coasting at all, even a little bit.............I feel like I'm having root canal.

They may be well engineered......they may be lovely, but that noise is awful.

Never will they be on my bike.....I wouldn't do that to a fellow cyclist.

Len

[coylifut]

king hubs are best used for cyclocross where the crowd masks the noise.

[Archibald]

King would have to use a significantly smaller axle diameter to build a Campy compatible hub. The ID of a Campy cassette body is smaller than that of a Shimano. The smaller ID does not allow for the oversized axle (as it passes through the cassette body) that King currently uses.

Jeremy
That's a red herring. :no:

King manufactures their own cassette bodies. The only Campy standard they need to adhere to is the ID & profile geometry of Campy cassettes. They could do it if they wanted to.

[Jeremy]

That's a red herring. :no:

King manufactures their own cassette bodies. The only Campy standard they need to adhere to is the ID & profile geometry of Campy cassettes. They could do it if they wanted to.

Actually, it is not a red herring. The depth of the Campy splines requires a smaller ID than a Shimano cassette body. I didn't say that they couldn't make a Campy compatible hub, I said that they would have to change the axle diameter and bearing system (by inference) to do it. What they can't do is design a cassette body for Campy that works with their current large diameter axle/bearing system. The OD of the outer race of the needle bearing assembly in the King cassette body is significantly larger than the largest possible ID of a Campy compatible cassette body.

Jeremy

[LegendRider]

mechanically the hubs are excellent. nonetheless, i do not like the way they build up for 700c rear wheels. the non-drive spoke tension is always extremely low compared to the drive side and as 11.4 said, chris king doesn't allow for radial spoking.

we've debated ad nauseam the effects of equalizing spoke tension has on wheels and the effect of flange distanc and all the rest....still i'm not a fan of the resulting spoke tension on a chris king rear wheel when built to a shallow section 700c rim.

anyway,

obtuse

What do ergott, jeremy and other well-respected wheel-builders think of this criticism?

[Jeremy]

What do ergott, jeremy and other well-respected wheel-builders think of this criticism?

The placement of the drive-side flange on a King hub is quite good. As a result the relative L/R tension (even with widely spaced flanges) is not that bad. Relative L/R tension is not as good as a stock Shimano hub or some other aftermarket hubs. It is better than most Campy compatible hubs and only slightly lower than a DT 240 (approximately 49% compared to 51.8%). At an ERD of 600, the drive side bracing angle for a King hub build is approximately 9% better than a 240, non-drive bracing angle is almost 19% better, and relative L/R tension is approximately 5.4% worse. An argument could certainly be made that the slightly lower relative L/R tension is worth the large gains in bracing angle on both sides.

Jeremy

[J.Greene]

King would have to use a significantly smaller axle diameter to build a Campy compatible hub. The ID of a Campy cassette body is smaller than that of a Shimano. The smaller ID does not allow for the oversized axle (as it passes through the cassette body) that King currently uses.

Jeremy

I'm aware of why. I think the reason they are shimano is beacuse Campagnolo was still playing catch up on the road and there was no mtb market outside of shimano when the King hubs were designed. I don't know for sure but i suspect a new hub would be compatible with both. Then we could argue flange placement again.

JG

[Grant McLean]

The placement of the drive-side flange on a King hub is quite good. As a result the relative L/R tension (even with widely spaced flanges) is not that bad. Relative L/R tension is not as good as a stock Shimano hub or some other aftermarket hubs. It is better than most Campy compatible hubs and only slightly lower than a DT 240 (approximately 49% compared to 51.8%). At an ERD of 600, the drive side bracing angle for a King hub build is approximately 9% better than a 240, non-drive bracing angle is almost 19% better, and relative L/R tension is approximately 5.4% worse. An argument could certainly be made that the slightly lower relative L/R tension is worth the large gains in bracing angle on both sides.

Jeremy


All numbers which could be improved with an aysmetrical rear rim,
or a 2:1 spoking pattern. Chris King, are you listening? How about
some King rims??? How hard is that to make?

g

[Grant McLean]

I'm aware of why. I think the reason they are shimano is beacuse Campagnolo was still playing catch up on the road and there was no mtb market outside of shimano when the King hubs were designed. I don't know for sure but i suspect a new hub would be compatible with both. Then we could argue flange placement again.

JG


Bingo.

And the bike world has changed.

g

[J.Greene]

I think the 'drag' issue is only unweighted, as 11.4 explains.
Once the bearing is preloaded, the friction of the seal is tiny.
g

G,
There are too many facotrs to allow me to isolate, but I feel they have more drag when riding. Don't some people modify the seals because of this? I've got 2 mtb sets and 3 road sets, and I've felt that way about all of them. And again, it does not have to be a bad thing.

JG

[11.4]

On seal-related drag, I once set up a pair of criterium wheels and, since they were planned for major events in good weather, I pulled the seals from the hub bearings and lubricated the freehub with simple Triflow to see if it would make any difference. It didn't. I think the bearing clips contribute more drag than the seals themselves. However, for what it's worth, when I put King hubs and an identical pair of wheels built on Record hubs on a trainer with an SRM on the bike, I couldn't find any difference in wattage required to attain a particular cadence or wheel velocity over a wide range of gearing and cadence combinations. It isn't a perfect analysis, but the SRM picks up drag quite quickly. (If I put minimal incremental drag on a set of rollers I pick it up immediately on the SRM, so any meaningful seal drag should show up similarly.) So I think this is a pretty good indication that loaded drag is not significant.

On the hub noise, the basic way to suppress most of it is to fill the freehub with RingLube. It also tends to seep out a bit and get pushed out of place as well, but if you don't mind a little clean-up it does help. I've actually found that if you pedal consistently at a fairly high wheel rpm (i.e., don't coast) the centrifugal force pulls the lubricant to the noise-making parts of the ringdrive and suppresses the noise. If you coast a lot, the ring drive tends to spit the lubricant away from the noise-making parts and it gets much louder.

[Jeff N.]

OF COURSE they're Shimano only. Why would you wanna run Campy anyway? :D Their whine noise reminds me of a Stuka dive bomber going in for a bomb run, like on all those WW II newsreels. Jeff N.

[big shanty]

11.4 is a wealth of information. Thanks.

[obtuse]

All numbers which could be improved with an aysmetrical rear rim,
or a 2:1 spoking pattern. Chris King, are you listening? How about
some King rims??? How hard is that to make?

g


yup....

obtuse

[stevep]

sorry, you're right, the 60% of the high end market that's campy.

:)

g

10% max.
sorry g.

[Grant McLean]

10% max.
sorry g.

i'm just playin'

But there are shops sellin' serious amounts of campy.
Check the CompetitveCycist bike gallery. At least 50%
of the bikes they sell are campy. (i counted the Cervelos
one time, it was over 50%)

A lot of shops that sell by adding frame+kit+wheels sell
good qty's of campy. If you sell prebuilt treks or dales,
not so much.

How about a Serotta owners' poll? I bet it's 50/50.

g

[72gmc]

+2 to big shanty's post.

I will add, with utmost respect to 11.4's knowledge, that the given explanation could be restated as "not coasting is the proper way to reduce the coasting noise." That's what I call a surefire solution.

[stevep]

good idea.

all shimano for me

[Jeremy]

All numbers which could be improved with an aysmetrical rear rim, g

There are nice offset rims currently available (Crostini R3.2, Aerohead OC, etc..).

Jeremy

[Grant McLean]

There are nice offset rims currently available (Crostini R3.2, Aerohead OC, etc..).

Jeremy

I think Chris King prebuilt wheels would be a popular item.
The trend to wheel 'sets' seems to be the thing these days.

g

[Jeremy]

I think Chris King prebuilt wheels would be a popular item.
The trend to wheel 'sets' seems to be the thing these days.

g

King is launching a "King prebuilt wheel" program. I'm not sure what rims and spokes that they will use. I'm sure that these will be nice wheels. However, they won't be any better (they will be less custom) than what a good custom wheelbuilder can provide.

Jeremy

[stevep]

c;mon grant,
throw down a thread.
s vs c
if its 50% ill send you something cool.
s

[bigman]

Come on - I am awaiting delivery of Mango CK hubs laced to black open pro's with black DT spokes - supposed to be on my doorstep tomorrow! Great Ebay deal unless of course I go deaf.

They gotta (better?) be the best thing since sliced white bread! :cool:

[dirtdigger88]

grant-

like these-

http://www.chrisking.com/prettyandstrong/wheelsets.html

I know King has been working on a wheelset for a while- I remember speaking to them over a year ago-

Jason

[Grant McLean]

c;mon grant,
throw down a thread.
s vs c
if its 50% ill send you something cool.
s

but all the campy guys are out riding,
and won't have time to post :rolleyes:

g

[Grant McLean]

grant-

like these-

http://www.chrisking.com/prettyandstrong/wheelsets.html

I know King has been working on a wheelset for a while- I remember speaking to them over a year ago-

Jason


Sure, but I was thinking more like Nucleons, a lower spoke count wheel
with a dedicated rim design. BIG king stickers on the rims. You know,
the stuff that gets people's wallets out. Something like where you add up
the price, and realize you paid $250 per rim on top of the price of the hubs,
so they must be real good.

g

[Archibald]

Sure, but I was thinking more like Nucleons, a lower spoke count wheel
with a dedicated rim design. BIG king stickers on the rims. You know,
the stuff that gets people's wallets out. Something like where you add up
the price, and realize you paid $250 per rim on top of the price of the hubs,
so they must be real good.

g
Yeah, it gets my wallet out at the Home Despot to buy acetone to take that schite off with. This ain't NASCAR people!

[stevep]

but all the campy guys are out riding,
and won't have time to post :rolleyes:

g

c'mon you chicken.
you're like obtuce when the road approaches a hill...
he cowers, whimpers and moans like a whipped dog.

ill even give you 5 freebies for the 5 guys who are walking home cause their chains broke.

obtuce, i can give him shiite cause he does not live anywhere near here.

[catulle]

I wouldn't mess with Obtuse, atmo. I don't think you want to try any of his medicine. He introduced Atmo to Sinatra (and since then Atmo has never been the same.)

[catulle]

:bike:

[11.4]

I will add, with utmost respect to 11.4's knowledge, that the given explanation could be restated as "not coasting is the proper way to reduce the coasting noise." That's what I call a surefire solution.

Or, ... "the coasting noise is irrelevant because you don't want to be coasting anyway." But yes, I always go for the simple solutions.

A friend who bought a pair of CK wheels from me was grouching last fall about the noise. Then over the winter he's been riding on a fixie with me. I overhauled his hubs for him, then this weekend we rode road bikes for the first time in a while. He commented on how quiet the hubs were. I had to point out that he wasn't coasting every 30 seconds. He was also a good 2 mph faster just because he kept pedaling. There's a lesson in this somewhere.

[Archibald]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22051&stc=1
Campy gets an AIDS test every month. Something tells me it won't be long before she's looking like Shimano.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22053&stc=1

[obtuse]

c'mon you chicken.
you're like obtuce when the road approaches a hill...
he cowers, whimpers and moans like a whipped dog.

.


just when i approach the bottom of a hill...give me some credit here...i'm pretty good at the top.


obtuse

[KKevin]

I have had a pair of Chris King road wheels for at least 7 years and think they are great. I can say that when I got my hubs they were warrantied for radial spoking and they did fail, but almost 6 years after getting them. It was the rear wheel if that tells you anything. However if you have any sort of warranty issue they handled mine without problem.

[sspielman]

Junque*

* Spelled with a "q" to denote the fact that at least it is expensive....

[catulle]

Campy gets an AIDS test every month. Something tells me it won't be long before she's looking like Shimano.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=22053&stc=1

Campy and I can shimano anytime, atmo...

[Big Dan]

The sounds of noisy LOOK cleats bothers me more than the machine gun like chatter of CK hubs.........

:eek:

[ClutchCargo]

over priced imho bro
cheers

bro you're on a SEROTTA website bro . . .

saying the best-engineered product is over priced is just not the done thing.




;)