Hello again

[Lastplace]

This thread is written with the best intentions and is a follow up to my first and now closed introductory thread because of accusations of trying to circumvent the rules, buy/sell with insufficient privileges. In my experience, pointing a finger at someone results in three being pointed back at you…I digress:

Mayhaps this may be oversight on my part, but

1) What about setting up a deal in the future? Is it ok for new members to make arraignments for when they meet the criteria noted in the rules, *then* they can then purchase/sell said goods if still available? Rules are not clear, especially considering the reaction, like the condescending bigot-like PM I received, shouldn't but did respond to because no PM for 30/30 right? Sigh.

2) Is it customary for welcoming a new user to include both constructively and deconstructively criticizing his/her equipment, instructing alternatives, but not permitting purchase of said equipment until certain internal forum conditions are met? Quite contradictory to not being a jerk; you should have this, and I have this for you, but I can’t sell this to you until you do that, all while here you can go out and buy what I have, under potentially more favorable circumstances.

With some due respect, I see plastic and metal, used and unused, worth tens, hundreds, in some cases thousands of dollars --- and protections in place like it’s your p r e c i o u s. There are…25k members on this forum? It’s not Rolex (250k members and ~10x the prices here), not Porsche/Ferrari (150k members and ~100x+ prices), and both those forums are larger and more accessible to higher valued goods. Sure, one could argue what’s a “member” but that’s a moot point. What I don’t see is much respect or protection to the person who may be purchasing your stuff, because it’s not like a cracked seat post or faulty derailleur could cause any damage to an amateur cyclist in an everyday situation right? Ya’ll must have gotten scammed hard in the past and don’t do your diligence but look to the forum for protection. Heavy sigh.

New to cycling but not riding a bicycle, my experience to date has been full of heroes and villains. I’ve been fit to bikes of ranging styles and sizes for my intent of exercise and fun. Not having any current ride or much knowledge about the sport (still called it biking up to a few weeks ago), I set off with an open mind…

You should be riding this for your first bike (insert big brand here). It’s $4,995. You need a gravel bike, everyone is doing it. Order custom, because it’s the only way and no one has “it” instock (yet I found plenty in colors and sizes), These cleats fit you, a fingers worth of heel space is best (they didn’t have the smaller size available). I was sold defective shoes where a retention clip was present on the left shoe, not the right, and my personal favorite is a well? reputable high end shop tried to sell me a sz 55 bike that was tagged a 56…

Oh you are a fun group, and sincere thanks to those who genuinely welcomed/helped me, like the people who said cool bike, let me ride road bikes with 540-570 top tubes, and answered my questions on kops, soreness, and good etiquette. My second hand 8:30am is a 55 stock btw, campy 10 chorus less shimano brakes, 120 8 deg with 85 mm reach bars  do I sound pro? No!?! maybe I should put on my white cleats….

To close, perhaps turning this on its head would yield better results: alternate forms of verification, agreeing to not entrap new users and assessing case by case accordingly, eliminating the bias that everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise.

Sleep well knowing if you have any parts that you think I may be interested in, please relieve yourself of that thought. Feel safe, that I, a legit person interested in the sport, *won’t* be purchasing anything from you…before or after my frat-like initiation has ended. I was trying for mutually beneficial outcomes, to help you get rid of stuff you don’t want anymore, and get me the gear I need to ride without knee pain (partially torn IT band).
But no worries, I’m happy to support the cool shops I’ve come across on this journey knowing that even if I pay more, the different goes to helping the shop and people who want to be inclusive, rather than exclusive.

/end rant

[Blown Reek]

Sleep well knowing if you have any parts that you think I may be interested in, please relieve yourself of that thought. Feel safe, that I, a legit person interested in the sport, *won’t* be purchasing anything from you.

Why must my wallet suffer for the actions of others? Please reconsider your position.

[thirdgenbird]

The classifieds come secondary to the community here. There are a number of sales-first platforms available if that is your priority.

For what is worth, the Porsche forums that I’ve participated in have minimum post count and paid due requirements to post classified adds.

[Lastplace]

Hi, thanks for your response and taking the time to read my post!

Flip it: why must my knees and wallet suffer based on the actions of others?

Here, I use the same logic you came to: people have been scammed and there is a 30/30 rule in effect, therefore I need to prove my authenticity before I have access to your parts forcing me to sacrifice poor riding position and/or potentially more costly means through alternative part sourcing.

Would love to reconsider, but hesitant to support this forum given the welcome not welcome.

[dbnm]

That's one helluva rant. I hope you're here for more than the classifieds.

If you do decided to stick around and accept the rules, you will find a place filled with awesome people who love to ride and love bikes. Some real genuine people here.

[Lastplace]

The classifieds come secondary to the community here. There are a number of sales-first platforms available if that is your priority.

For what is worth, the Porsche forums that I’ve participated in have minimum post count and paid due requirements to post classified adds.

Actually, it's third to the community -- where community occupies the first (viewing and browsing) and second (discussing) points of the user agreement.

Yess, have had great success on Craigslist, Ebay, and Offerup to source and build that Peg in my previous post...and the moment I reach out here, bam infraction drama exclusion.

[rallizes]

there are easier ways to do this

[lavi]

Yawn. Think of your next screen name quick before the permanent block hits you.

The others here may be too nice to say. You're a bore, extremely annoying, and a kook.

Bye.

[thirdgenbird]

I’m really not sure why you feel like it is frat-like.

There is a lot of value in an established sales platform with a targeted audience. This value is provided in exchange for the value individuals bring the the community. If this cost is too high or burdensome for you, then you can pursue other avenues that warrant monetary exchanges. Your repeated attempts lead me to believe you think there is additional value here. PL has no obligation to provide that to you for free.

Mods, feel free to delete if I’m speaking out of turn.

[Lastplace]

That's one helluva rant. I hope you're here for more than the classifieds.

If you do decided to stick around and accept the rules, you will find a place filled with awesome people who love to ride and love bikes. Some real genuine people here.

Sure trying to stay but won't accept unjust rules, as I said, just won't buy/sell anything here.

Was drawn to PL because of the the cool bikes, history and knowledge. Seemed to be the largest collection of the aforementioned.

Would like to stay to share my experiences, albeit minimal, such as how the new Sidi Sixty compare to Shot and Wire 2 -- couldn't find much info on that. Weird a 44.5 was 10.25 and now 10 USA on box, eh?

Would also love to know more about why I shouldn't use a seat post clamp, and what's a better alternative?? Must have missed that in the research.

[Lastplace]

Yawn. Think of your next screen name quick before the permanent block hits you.

The others here may be too nice to say. You're a bore, extremely annoying, and a kook.

Bye.

yes, kook agree and won't sign up with another sn, no worries

[Black Dog]

Well, this is a bike forum to talk about bikes and not a buy and sell forum. You need a part and you are here to get that part. You seem to have no other real motivation for being here and are really upset that the rules will not allow you to do what you want when you want. You really have no idea how amazing this place is and how different it is to other forums. The rules are set here for the express purpose of keeping it this way and were established long before you needed a seat post or whatever. They are certainly not arbitrary even if they may seem so from your perspective. Stick around and get to know the place, you will be welcomed and treated well and given support and knowledge form amazingly generous and knowledgeable people in a respectful way. That is worth more than any bike or its parts.

[FlashUNC]

Yawn. Think of your next screen name quick before the permanent block hits you.

The others here may be too nice to say. You're a bore, extremely annoying, and a kook.

Bye.

By that criteria we'd exile 80% of the membership.

I like what this guy is throwing down so far. Viva Lastplace!

[Lastplace]

I’m really not sure why you feel like it is frat-like.

There is a lot of value in an established sales platform with a targeted audience. This value is provided in exchange for the value individuals bring the the community. If this cost is two high or burdensome for you, then you can pursue other avenues that warrant monetary exchanges. Your repeated attempts lead me to believe you think there is additional value here. PL has no obligation to provide that to you for free.

Mods, feel free to delete if I’m speaking out of turn.

Please don't delete, let this fly.
It's frat like because of the introductory requirements and penalties if not met and still want to stay. The manner in which I received the infractions, belittling, condescending, as if I am trying to circumvent the system is unwarranted.

I agree there is a lot of value in an established sales platform, but there is also scammy activity over there. I don't want to buy something from some person in some country through a medium when there is an equally good something closer to me from a person who I can physically talk to about it.

[jtbadge]

A group that continues to reject all opinions and viewpoints outside of the hivemind is a cult, not a community.

[zzy]

don't feed the troll

[dbnm]

Unjust rules? Really?

Try www.ebay.com or better yet, download vBulletin and start your own forum with your own rules and let us know how quickly your members get scammed out of parts and cash.

[Lastplace]

By that criteria we'd exile 80% of the membership.

I like what this guy is throwing down so far. Viva Lastplace!

Gracias thanks or your support.
Please note that I am not trying to start a revolution or pick a fight, just trying to be fair and just.

I joined here to be a part of something...and it's an not easy sport to get into, properly.

Cyling, imo, has THE most difficult barrier of entry.
If it doesn't fit, you get hurt.
It's expensive and elusive and wasteful.

[Lastplace]

don't feed the troll

sigh, post more but not too much

do this not that

i was happy being a troll, learned alot w/o this drama

[Lastplace]

Unjust rules? Really?

Try www.ebay.com or better yet, download vBulletin and start your own forum with your own rules and let us know how quickly your members get scammed out of parts and cash.

again to my point, you look to the forum for protection of mistakes.
If you are worried about getting scammed out of parts and cash, YOU go sell there. I am a legit buyer.

It's so odd to me that people want the protections that those mediums offer (like money back guarantee) yet do not exchange there...

[thirdgenbird]

It's so odd to me that people want the protections that those mediums offer (like money back guarantee) yet do not exchange there...

Many of us have or do and prefer this place. Not in spite of your complaints, because of them.

[Lastplace]

Well, this is a bike forum to talk about bikes and not a buy and sell forum. You need a part and you are here to get that part. You seem to have no other real motivation for being here and are really upset that the rules will not allow you to do what you want when you want. You really have no idea how amazing this place is and how different it is to other forums. The rules are set here for the express purpose of keeping it this way and were established long before you needed a seat post or whatever. They are certainly not arbitrary even if they may seem so from your perspective. Stick around and get to know the place, you will be welcomed and treated well and given support and knowledge form amazingly generous and knowledgeable people in a respectful way. That is worth more than any bike or its parts.

True, I came interested in parts and to thank those who participate here. Mistake on me for the buy/sell primary interest, but it's only because I want to participate. Kinda difficult without a bike ya know. And if I couldn't buy a bike, because the forum rules prevented me from that, its hard to participate -- see the hypocrisy? And then, if 30/30 is all you need for credibility, that bar seems a bit low for such a large scam problem.

Then I receive warnings, notifications of infractions and my other thread closed down before I could even respond, all full of negativity like I planned this whole thing to scam you people...tis a leap.

[dbnm]

It's Saturday afternoon. Go ride your bike.

[akelman]

1) Showing up, asking if you can join the party and then, when you're barely in the door, complaining about the decor, the music, and the food is kinda silly, right?

2) I'm agnostic about the rules here. They're selectively enforced and a bit of a moving target. But that's not out of malice. It's because context matters. Longtime members get more leeway. Members who know the mods in person get more leeway. And there are better and worse mods. Pretty much like real life, I'd say.

3) Mostly this is a really great place filled with really good people. Stay, go, whatever. But see number one above: if you're gonna stick around, why not get used to the place before you start whining about it?

[Lastplace]

Many of us have or do and prefer this place. Not in spite of your complaints, because of them.

But the cost of entry is 30/30 conditionally yes?

Makes everyone feel good that the judgement by a (mod?) based on ones participation is a measure of that users authenticity.

Meek, at best.

That's my point. That's my initial contribution to this forum is, well first is thanking everyone for the knowledge, then second is identifying a new user pain point that as a new user, who wants stuff, I am turned off by participating in this forum as a means to buy/sell not only limited to the rules but the reaction of how my unknowing violation of those rules was conveyed.

My concession, is that I won't buy or sell anything. That should alleviate any previously concerns although undoubtedly after this confession, there may be many

[XXtwindad]

Please don't delete, let this fly.
It's frat like because of the introductory requirements and penalties if not met and still want to stay. The manner in which I received the infractions, belittling, condescending, as if I am trying to circumvent the system is unwarranted.

I agree there is a lot of value in an established sales platform, but there is also scammy activity over there. I don't want to buy something from some person in some country through a medium when there is an equally good something closer to me from a person who I can physically talk to about it.

Just curious what infractions you received and how you were belittled and felt condescended to. I have no take on the situation without knowing the facts.

I do, however, appreciate a good rant. On that count, you’re pretty good, if a bit prosaic. There are some real heavyweights here, though. Wernerherzogsid is the master, hands down. Burnette, when he gets ahold of a topic that he feels strongly about is like a rabid dog with a bone. Most excellent. Kirk007 has the most reasonable fact-based soliloquies. DeadMan is an artist of the non-sequitur. Flash is great at the “drive by” hyperbole.

Rant away, just know the bar is high :)

Edit: I forgot CunegoFan. God, I love that guy. Right up there with Wernerherzogsid. Anytime you can weave “assless chaps” into a rant, you’re a Maestro.

[hollowgram5]

I hope you decide to stick around and contribute some to the community. If you choose not to, well that's your prerogative. Yes, you may feel like the rules suck but honestly, they aren't that restrictive when you actually look at them objectively.

You could post up about your Peg in the Production or Custom Bike gallery. Post about how its built, why you made the choices you made; talk about what you really like about it and what you are planning to change.

Engage in the honest conversation about who you are and what you do/ride to let the community here get to know you better. Find some current threads and participate in the conversation that is already occurring. Introduce yourself in this thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146445)

Heck, there's so many ways to get to that level to be able to PM or post in the classifieds.

[joosttx]

Just curious what infractions you received and how you were belittled and felt condescended to. I have no take on the situation without knowing the facts.

I do, however, appreciate a good rant. On that count, you’re pretty good, if a bit prosaic. There are some real heavyweights here, though. Wernerherzogsid is the master, hands down. Burnette, when he gets ahold of a topic that he feels strongly about is like a rabid dog with a bone. Most excellent. Kirk007 has the most reasonable fact-based soliloquies. DeadMan is an artist of the non-sequitur. Flash is great at the “drive by” hyperbole.

Rant away, just know the bar is high :)

Edit: I forgot CunegoFan. God, I love that guy. Right up there with Wernerherzogsid. Anytime you can weave “assless chaps” into a rant, you’re a Maestro.

watch out for the borderline personality disorder folks too.

[Lastplace]

1) Showing up, asking if you can join the party and then, when you're barely in the door, complaining about the decor, the music, and the food is kinda silly, right?

2) I'm agnostic about the rules here. They're selectively enforced and a bit of a moving target. But that's not out of malice. It's because context matters. Longtime members get more leeway. Members who know the mods in person get more leeway. And there are better and worse mods. Pretty much like real life, I'd say.

3) Mostly this is a really great place filled with really good people. Stay, go, whatever. But see number one above: if you're gonna stick around, why not get used to the place before you start whining about it?

E X A C T L Y. Rules for you are different than me, perhaps manifested from the exclusivity of the cycling sport itself.

I show up to the party and ask if anyone has dancing shoes. Then get practically thrown out for asking and said I need to do these things if I want these dancing shoes because someone once stole your dancing shoes.

Whining? I don't see it like that because I have identified pain points in the new user experience and you just confirmed the unfair practices here based on how long/who you know, a point that I wasn't even bringing up.

Again, if the problem is scam activity, there is a better way than 30/30 imo.

[XXtwindad]

watch out for the borderline personality disorder folks too.

There you are. Always a pleasure :)

[parris]

You've been a member since mid March and didn't post anything until yesterday. You dont care for the clearly stated rules. You dont like the responses. Yet the rest of the board aren't playing fair. UMM... R I G H T.

[Lastplace]

I hope you decide to stick around and contribute some to the community. If you choose not to, well that's your prerogative. Yes, you may feel like the rules suck but honestly, they aren't that restrictive when you actually look at them objectively.

You could post up about your Peg in the Production or Custom Bike gallery. Post about how its built, why you made the choices you made; talk about what you really like about it and what you are planning to change.

Engage in the honest conversation about who you are and what you do/ride to let the community here get to know you better. Find some current threads and participate in the conversation that is already occurring. Introduce yourself in this thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146445)

Heck, there's so many ways to get to that level to be able to PM or post in the classifieds.

Thank you for the recommendations. I am a bit caught up in the drama right now but appreciate the alternative healthy solutions and may look to those soon.

[akelman]

My concession, is that I won't buy or sell anything. That should alleviate any previously concerns although undoubtedly after this confession, there may be many

There's longstanding sensitivity here about people who join the forum just to buy and sell stuff. But you don't have to worry about that. The mod who closed your thread was apparently on bit of a hair trigger, and you're now, it looks like from out here in the cheap seats, overreacting to what amounts to a slap on the wrist. Just chill. Participate in some threads. See if you like the place. And then decide whether you want to get involved in the classifieds. Or don't. Whatever.

[Lastplace]

You've been a member since mid March and didn't post anything until yesterday. You dont care for the clearly stated rules. You dont like the responses. Yet the rest of the board aren't playing fair. UMM... R I G H T.

I love the responses! This dialog is fantastic imo...and I joined when I got the Peg 55, long long time lurker btw, posted when I haven't be able to get it to fit comfy more than 2 hours in the saddle, vans and no kit.

[Lastplace]

There's longstanding sensitivity here about people who join the forum just to buy and sell stuff. But you don't have to worry about that. The mod who closed your thread was apparently on bit of a hair trigger, and you're now, it looks like from out here in the cheap seats, overreacting to what amounts to a slap on the wrist. Just chill. Participate in some threads. See if you like the place. And then decide whether you want to get involved in the classifieds. Or don't. Whatever.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Appreciate the honesty.

[Blue Jays]

"...A group that continues to reject all opinions and viewpoints outside of the hivemind is a cult, not a community..."
Good post. Agreed.
In some enthusiast forums, simple differences in opinion (even when written courteously) occasionally results in banning.
Reading different ideas, and different approaches, from different viewpoints...absolutely boosts vitality and interest.

[Lastplace]

Just curious what infractions you received and how you were belittled and felt condescended to. I have no take on the situation without knowing the facts.

I do, however, appreciate a good rant. On that count, you’re pretty good, if a bit prosaic. There are some real heavyweights here, though. Wernerherzogsid is the master, hands down. Burnette, when he gets ahold of a topic that he feels strongly about is like a rabid dog with a bone. Most excellent. Kirk007 has the most reasonable fact-based soliloquies. DeadMan is an artist of the non-sequitur. Flash is great at the “drive by” hyperbole.

Rant away, just know the bar is high :)

Edit: I forgot CunegoFan. God, I love that guy. Right up there with Wernerherzogsid. Anytime you can weave “assless chaps” into a rant, you’re a Maestro.

Thank you for this comment.

First lets not forget that several members commented on what I should do for a better experience: setback setpost, new clamp, bar tape -- so naturally I ask who has it?

Thread closed to "with that little end run attempt we are done"

I am not done, and it certainly was not an attempt to circumvent any rules. I wanted to just get started here and now told I am done!! How about: thread closed because of possible rule violation or something not so degrading.

Then the PM - "nice try" - further insinuating that I am purposely trying to violate your rules.

This is the reason for my negative emotion towards this forum.

I didn't follow the rules, fine. Infract me. Please know that I have the best intentions.

Put me down like you are on some superior level, not fine. Guard up.

[maxim809]

Call me dense, but I could not follow what was happening in the original thread, let alone what is going on here. I must be missing some context, because I can't form an opinion on what's this or that.

[Lastplace]

It's Saturday afternoon. Go ride your bike.

thanks, got a good (for me) ride in before but couldn't shake this emotion.
The Lincoln letter was worse -- my rant is the edited version.

[pooneej]

I'm actually glad there is a 30/30 rule in place. It saved me from impulse buying a way over budget frame that was pretty lusty looking in my opinion.

30 days later I dont even think about that frame and I think it is still for sale lol.

[maxim809]

I'm actually glad there is a 30/30 rule in place. It saved me from impulse buying a way over budget frame that was pretty lusty looking in my opinion.

30 days later I dont even think about that frame and I think it is still for sale lol.

Ah thanks -- that was enough of a clue to get me to realize what's going on. I see. Haha. Sleeping on things definitely helps the decision mature.

[akelman]

Thread closed to "with that little end run attempt we are done"

Then the PM - "nice try" - further insinuating that I am purposely trying to violate your rules.

This is the reason for my negative emotion towards this forum.

As in life, some of the mods are better than others. But they all mean well, I'm pretty sure. I say this as someone who recently got banned for something that seemed to me to be squarely within the rules. And I've subsequently been warned about some other stuff that strikes me as complete nonsense.

That said, it's not my house. I'm a guest. The mods are the host. I can either live with their decisions or leave. On that note, I'll suggest again that I think you're overreacting to having had your wrist slapped for something that's a real hot button issue around these parts. I think you should let it go and see what you think of the place rather than belaboring an episode of shabby treatment.

[rallizes]

As in life, some of the mods are better than others. But they all mean well, I'm pretty sure. I say this as someone who recently got banned for something that seemed to me to be squarely within the rules. And I've subsequently been warned about some other stuff that strikes me as complete nonsense.

That said, it's not my house. I'm a guest. The mods are the host. I can either live with their decisions or leave. On that note, I'll suggest again that I think you're overreacting to having had your wrist slapped for something that's a real hot button issue around these parts. I think you should let it go and see what you think of the place rather than belaboring an episode of shabby treatment.

this is correct

[Ralph]

This a forum where people talk about bikes...and parts. And maybe sell or buy a few parts to/from others. Sometimes....even some off topic stuff also. Most of us see it as a path to fitness.

Not sure I get the point of this thread. They are just bikes....you ride them, they wear, they get dirty. We like them. New stuff come out....we talk about it. I imagine all of us have other things going on in our life that's lot more important.

[Lastplace]

this is correct

Thanks for the guidance and venting my frustration has helped "let go" but please understand it's not the wrist slap itself -- but more the how the wrist was slapped, because someone could as a power move in violation of other forum best practices (dont be a jerk), then pour salt on the broken skin..all not in the best protection of others to which I assume the rules are there for..

Some of ya'll seem like real nice characters, and to you I look forward to future dialog.

And if nothing else needs to be said here, I said my part, others have chimed in on both sides... we can lock down this thread in agreement together.

[Tickdoc]

Why can’t you just introduce yourself, then continue to post pics and questions until you meet the criteria to post in the classifieds? It’s not hard to play twenty questions til you have the requirements met. I’m no expert, but it may help establish yourself as a brethren paceliner ratherr than someone who only joined to enjoy the classifieds.

Most of us are here to learn and show off or see what others have and the community is quite nice as far cycling forums go. Opinions are like a-holes and we have our share here as much as anywhere else.

Oh and hey, welcome to the forum.:banana:

[Mike V]

Reminds me of a curtain Cat.

[pbarry]

You’ll make 30 posts in no time with threads like this one. ;)

[johnmdesigner]

Against my better judgment (and the risk of upping your post count) allow me to comment.
Many years ago I had a job assignment in a small Midwestern town. I chose a place to rent in the factory district close to my work.
There was a corner bar that the factory workers frequented. I chose to make it my bar.
From the moment I walked into this saloon I knew I was not welcome. I smelled of fresh college boy with an attitude to match. Fortunately my survival instincts took over as most of the patrons could have snapped me in half. I took my seat at the end of the bar and sipped my beer and listened. I visited many times and listened a lot until one day one of the gruff old timers asked me who I was and what I was doing there.
I respectfully answered his questions and acknowledged his kingdom.
Next time I visited, old factory codger invited me to sit next to him. He introduced me to his friends as the "college boy".
We had a lot of good times in that bar. It didn't matter if many of those guys barely finished grade or high school. They were smarter than me in many ways and I learned a lot about life from them.
Now you might be in a hurry to do whatever it is you want to do here but I would suggest you be quiet for awhile and listen to what is going on. I have been here for many years and I have a low post count compared to others. It's because most of the people here are smarter than me and I am content to sit back and listen to their insights on almost every topic. Over the years I've made a lot of friends here, I've bought and sold many bike parts, and I've learned a lot about life just by reading and listening.
So please, you are welcome to join (unless you are a spambot) but how about showing a little respect when you enter the saloon for the first time.

[SlowPokePete]

John...Smartly put.

SPP

[gasman]

Every person from the forum I've met in person has been great. I've liked them all and gotten to meet a number over the years.

The "DNA" forum has evolved from a small bike appreciation forum run by a guy by the name of Kahuna. It had numerous subforms for each bike brand-Trek, Giant, Serotta, etc. There was a little buying and selling but mostly it was talk about bikes. Kahuna let that forum fade away and Ben Serotta helped get the Serotta forum started many years ago. He lost interest in the forum and Serotta sadly went out of business and the forum was given to the moderators at the time. There have been numerous moderator changes over the years, I think I'm the newest, and while we all have different approaches all the mods want what's best for the forum and the majority of members.The rules have evolved over the years with the view of doing the most good for the most members. We are all volunteers and do this not as a full time position, but out of love of bikes and riding and sharing that passion.

I'm going to close this thread at the above request of the OP and go for a ride.