Big Changes at Rapha

[dbnm]

Apparently there have been layoffs in London (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/06/rapha-racing-slashes-jobs-hunt-profitability-walmart-heirs/) and they have killed Rapha Travel (even though it's still on the website).

Tough times? Changing markets?

[Marc40a]

Edited. I didn't click on the link until after I commented. My comment was covered by the article.

[ltwtsculler91]

I've heard rumors of millions of dollars of unsold inventory..

Reality is, the constant sales have destroyed much of their cachet and ability to attract sales at full price. Why would anyone pay full price anymore when they have a constant sale going on everything every month.

[FlashUNC]

Apparently there have been layoffs in London (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/06/rapha-racing-slashes-jobs-hunt-profitability-walmart-heirs/) and they have killed Rapha Travel (even though it's still on the website).

Tough times? Changing markets?

Wal-Mart ownership.

[MagicHour]

Seems like more "boutique" kit offerings out there now, than there were a couple years ago.

[Lanternrouge]

A big thing I noticed was that they stopped the bundles, which really helped encourage me to buy them in combination with a sale. I've also heard that they have dropped the level of discounts for people in the Industry.

[KarlC]

Apparently there have been layoffs in London (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/06/rapha-racing-slashes-jobs-hunt-profitability-walmart-heirs/) and they have killed Rapha Travel (even though it's still on the website).

Tough times? Changing markets?

The Title tells it all.....

Rapha Racing cuts jobs in hunt for profitability under Walmart heirs

.

[fiamme red]

I just looked at the Rapha website. I don't see anything at all on sale. Also, helmet and shoes are no longer offered.

I suppose that the prices haven't changed too drastically. A cotton t-shirt is still $55: https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/shop/logo-t-shirt/product/LOT06XX.

[tuscanyswe]

The 60% sale just ended a few days ago so not so strange to not see discounts right now. New owners or not there has never been discounts available directly after huge sales

[Lanternrouge]

I just looked at the Rapha website. I don't see anything at all on sale. Also, helmet and shoes are no longer offered.

I suppose that the prices haven't changed too drastically. A cotton t-shirt is still $55: https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/shop/logo-t-shirt/product/LOT06XX.

It's still a "bargain" compared to something like Armani if that's where you get your regular clothes.

[sparky33]

and they have killed Rapha Travel (even though it's still on the website).


?Really?
The Rapha Randonnee trips looked good. This turn of events would be disappointing.

[bicycletricycle]

Looks like they never made a huge profit-
http://leanluxe.com/raphas-12-year-financials-just-landed-in-our-inbox-heres-what-we-learned/

I guess they are hoping to cut some of the fat. None of us know what the internal work culture is like at Rapha, perhaps they have a lot of "extra" people around. I have worked for a lot of companies that have a lot of extra people around.

[Clean39T]

Looks like they never made a huge profit-
http://leanluxe.com/raphas-12-year-financials-just-landed-in-our-inbox-heres-what-we-learned/

I guess they are hoping to cut some of the fat. None of us know what the internal work culture is like at Rapha, perhaps they have a lot of "extra" people around. I have worked for a lot of companies that have a lot of extra people around.Bah. Get out of hear with your rational thoughts and stop trying to spoil the witch-hunt..

/S

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[dbnm]

Wow.
"Rapha went from less than 50 employees in 2013, to 306 in 2016. Payroll over that period increased from £3.5M to £10.4M. "

[bikeridah]

Pretax profit of gbp 1.4m on 67.1m revenue suggests far too much fat. Marketing costs from Team Sky sponsorship must've been hugely ROI negative.

[avalonracing]

Wow.
"Rapha went from less than 50 employees in 2013, to 306 in 2016. Payroll over that period increased from £3.5M to £10.4M. "

Hmmm, shouldn't their payroll have increased to 21.4M pounds? :rolleyes:

[bicycletricycle]

Bah. Get out of hear with your rational thoughts and stop trying to spoil the witch-hunt..

/S

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Sorry, I do wear a lot of rapha and I did take the sale to Walmart guy as bad news so I guess I can join in properly :)

Here it goes-

I bet they will fire everybody and start selling Rapha in Walmart and Target next year. Capitalist pigs destroy everything.

[JEFFTHEROBOT]

https://vimeo.com/97870255

[JEFFTHEROBOT]

I suppose I should post this for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHhT3rDNTpM

[VTR1000SP2]

Michael Moore showed an image of a corndog to kids at a school in France and they had no idea what it was but that Ornot parody was fun.

Rapha, not everything they've done up to this point has made sense but their pro team kit fits me very well and makes up most of my cycling kit. Anyone after some items on sale, there's always the archived section: https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/archive-sale/category/archivesale

[joosttx]

Sorry, I do wear a lot of rapha and I did take the sale to Walmart guy as bad news so I guess I can join in properly :)

Here it goes-

I bet they will fire everybody and start selling Rapha in Walmart and Target next year. Capitalist pigs destroy everything.

Rapha was not managed that well. Well at least their forecasting. Even from the outside you could see this or I could. Its success was probably was two fold. One being the passion and drive of the owners but I would venture to guess the numbers was not one of them. That is why a VC bought them- to make the passion align with the numbers. This would be my guess.

[bicycletricycle]

Rapha was not managed that well. Well at least their forecasting. Even from the outside you could see this or I could. Its success was probably was two fold. One being the passion and drive of the owners but I would venture to guess the numbers was not one of them. That is why a VC bought them- to make the passion align with the numbers. This would be my guess.

I think you are correct.

[Clean39T]

Rapha was not managed that well. Well at least their forecasting. Even from the outside you could see this or I could. Its success was probably was two fold. One being the passion and drive of the owners but I would venture to guess the numbers was not one of them. That is why a VC bought them- to make the passion align with the numbers. This would be my guess.Plus the VC likes bikes and has more money than most developed countries, so why not invest in something that's fun and at the same time see if it's business can be run a bit better...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[nobuseri]

I like the clothes and what they are trying to do in the cycling scene. Most of the clothing is well made and their events and such seemed to be very enthusiastic - for all cycling levels.

That said, I buy them when they are discounted, only. Couldn’t afford (that many) otherwise.

I also think they were trying to do too much. I am not a business guy, but I can tell that they seemed to be spreading themselves too thin by selling too many products.

Maybe that’s what it takes to see if you can sink or swim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[cgolvin]

https://vimeo.com/97870255

POTD for me. (Disclosure: I am an RCC member.)

[cgolvin]

None of us know what the internal work culture is like at Rapha

In fact, at least one of us does.

[bicycletricycle]

In fact, at least one of us does.

U? spill your guts.......

[cgolvin]

U? spill your guts.......

No, not I, though I certainly have formed an [outsider's] opinion.
It would be ungentlemanly for me to out our pal, up to him/her.
I can say I'm pretty sure it's not the person who wrote the anonymous NYT op-ed piece, though.

[makoti]

I hope they don't mess with the CS. I've gone to them several times with small issues & each time taken care of quickly. Latest: my pair of climber shoes had the bolts the cleats attach to fail. Called Giro, since them made the shoes. Nothing. Call Rapha. Certain that Rapha wouldn't want anything to do with small parts like this, I tried. Bingo! The guy dug around, found 3 of the bolts, next day air'd them to me. No questions, no looking up orders, just let's take care of you.
If they stay like this, I'll keeping looking there first. On sale, sure. But I wait for their sales & I buy. I like Assos, but I have one pair because they never go on sale. So, cache vs sales. Which do they really want?

[Lanternrouge]

I hope they don't mess with the CS. I've gone to them several times with small issues & each time taken care of quickly. Latest: my pair of climber shoes had the bolts the cleats attach to fail. Called Giro, since them made the shoes. Nothing. Call Rapha. Certain that Rapha wouldn't want anything to do with small parts like this, I tried. Bingo! The guy dug around, found 3 of the bolts, next day air'd them to me. No questions, no looking up orders, just let's take care of you.

Friends' recent experience with Rapha customer service has remained positive. It sounds like the changes just mean fewer opportunities for Nordstrom service while paying Nordstrom Rack prices.

[ptourkin]

VC has rarely, if ever, made things better for carry over employees. This is fact and it isn't part of their concern, or the concern of that system. I don't want the bearded objectivist take.

It's a shame.

I like some of their recent product and according to today's email, they may have finally seen the light and made the Brevet Gilet PBP legal.

[Butch]

When they sold what made me scratch my head is they paid ~140 x EBITDA. In this industry 8-12 is pretty standard and if there is a sharp growth curve maybe 20-25. In my opinion that is a fatal flaw, especially in a niche market that is highly competitive.

[bicycletricycle]

I agree that it is a shame when companies are purchased by people with little concern for what had come before them and perhaps even what had made them great.

VC has rarely, if ever, made things better for carry over employees. This is fact and it isn't part of their concern, or the concern of that system. I don't want the bearded objectivist take.

It's a shame.

I like some of their recent product and according to today's email, they may have finally seen the light and made the Brevet Gilet PBP legal.

[joosttx]

When they sold what made me scratch my head is they paid ~140 x EBITDA. In this industry 8-12 is pretty standard and if there is a sharp growth curve maybe 20-25. In my opinion that is a fatal flaw, especially in a niche market that is highly competitive.

Not saying their logic was right but it makes you wonder what inefficiencies Rapha had to make them think they could reach their payback. My experience with VC'ing is you look for companies that are doing good regardless of how f'up they are. Then someone says "Imagine what we could make if we fixed ....."

[Avispa]

Apparently there have been layoffs in London (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/06/rapha-racing-slashes-jobs-hunt-profitability-walmart-heirs/) and they have killed Rapha Travel (even though it's still on the website).



Tough times? Changing markets?


Ever since the sale (to the Waltons) the whole company morale and way of working has gone downhill.

People in the USA have also lost jobs.... A friend took a job (and relocated for it) in the US, just to get axed less than a year later... as a result of this I will never buy or visit a Rapha store again!

It’s a pity when things like this happen. A company has a good track record, they have a good product, but then they are sold by those that really did not have their heart and soul on it... one has to wonder if some day things like these will happen to Campagnolo and others like them.

[corky]

They’re now going to be chasing the groaders and adventure market......sleeping bags anyone?

Which is a shame because they were always a road clothing company but America seems to be trending towards off-roading etc. And now they are set on chasing profits and no doubt ‘shareholder value’......

The cycling clothing market has far too many players these days and people like to wear stuff that is a little different, which means a lot of People have moved on.....

I hate that ‘if you’re not growing you’re failing’ corporate toss.... but that’s just me

[Clean39T]

Made in China tariffs for importing to the US won't help either...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[charliedid]

They’re now going to be chasing the groaders and adventure market......sleeping bags anyone?

Which is a shame because they were always a road clothing company but America seems to be trending towards off-roading etc. And now they are set on chasing profits and no doubt ‘shareholder value’......

The cycling clothing market has far too many players these days and people like to wear stuff that is a little different, which means a lot of People have moved on.....

I hate that ‘if you’re not growing you’re failing’ corporate toss.... but that’s just me

Better to shoot for the crossover market within the cycling camp IMO. The energy and reality is there. I bet they lose a pile of the chinos and slacks and other non-cycling essentials and focus on more core cycling needs.

When I interviewed with them a few years ago the plan was to open 100 clubhouses in the US alone. They didn't even care about "selling" strategies at all for the stores. They truly see them as clubhouses and I think that's okay. Maybe not 100 of them but...

Also the Walton bros. purchased Moosejaw at the same time, furthering the speculation that the "outdoor" market still sees cycling as a big component.

I don't think Rapha is in dire straights (the ramped up growth was intended) and they have a far wider audience than 3 years ago today.

Stick to cycling and have a few really well thought out lines, Pro Team, Core, Classic, Rando etc. and forget all the urbane schtick, oxfords and sweaters and all will be well. Now about those 100 stores...

[peanutgallery]

I sell lots of outdoor clothing, its interesting watching the ebb and flow of brands when they go beyond their core product, wind up in sale bins, then retract and start anew

Just got Marmont back after they did this, currently have my eye on Patagonia. If you can buy products at TJ Maxx why should I stock them?

Rapha has no business running a travel agency, opening club houses or producing street clothes. It's not their core market...hence current predicament

They'll be back in a similar but smaller form

As for the Waltons...they'll always have to remain in Arkansas. So there's that

[oldpotatoe]

I sell lots of outdoor clothing, its interesting watching the ebb and flow of brands when they go beyond their core product, wind up in sale bins, then retract and start anew

Just got Marmont back after they did this, currently have my eye on Patagonia. If you can buy products at TJ Maxx why should I stock them?

Rapha has no business running a travel agency, opening club houses or producing street clothes. It's not their core market...hence current predicament

They'll be back in a similar but smaller form

As for the Waltons...they'll always have to remain in Arkansas. So there's that


Agree with that but their cycling centric 'club houses', seeing that they are also retail sales places..I think they 'probably' pay for themselves..particularly when you consider where they are...none in Colorado Springs or Mobile AL...:)

[adub]

Reminds me of Banana Republic- 30% off is regular price, 40% off is getting warmer, 50% off is when I will by my jeans and shirts.

Who buys Rapha at MSRP?

[colker]

Ever since the sale (to the Waltons) the whole company morale and way of working has gone downhill.

People in the USA have also lost jobs.... A friend took a job (and relocated for it) in the US, just to get axed less than a year later... as a result of this I will never buy or visit a Rapha store again!

It’s a pity when things like this happen. A company has a good track record, they have a good product, but then they are sold by those that really did not have their heart and soul on it... one has to wonder if some day things like these will happen to Campagnolo and others like them.

Equating Rapha w/ Campagnolo is all Rapha ever wanted w/ their marketing. Don´t fall for that.
Campagnolo has decades of road racing tradition.
Rapha is a mirage. They have good products... but none of the tradition they try to be tied with.

[daker13]

It's fun to think about the behind-the-scenes dynamics of the Waltons buy-out. On the one hand, the Walton kids are cyclists and presumably don't NEED to make Rapha into a high profit endeavor. On the other, the fact that their elders created a very successful business might make them even MORE driven to make Rapha profitable.

Why can't they turn Rapha into the cycling equivalent of Wyatt's Koch's shirt company? (Wyatt is the son of Bill Koch, one of the Koch brothers.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=gZ41JGJGxYs

Anyway, makes me feel okay about overspending on this last sale when that last 10% coupon hit...

[charliedid]

It's fun to think about the behind-the-scenes dynamics of the Waltons buy-out. On the one hand, the Walton kids are cyclists and presumably don't NEED to make Rapha into a high profit endeavor. On the other, the fact that their elders created a very successful business might make them even MORE driven to make Rapha profitable.



Why can't they turn Rapha into the cycling equivalent of Wyatt's Koch's shirt company? (Wyatt is the son of Bill Koch, one of the Koch brothers.)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=gZ41JGJGxYs



Anyway, makes me feel okay about overspending on this last sale when that last 10% coupon hit...



Oh God please no. Those shirts are hideous beyond belief.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[93KgBike]

There are a million stories like this in the bike industry - it just never ends.

If artisans develop their skills and techniques to preserve tradition and carry it forward, then it follows that their techniques and artistry are meant to be handed down from teacher to pupil, from father to daughter.

But it must be tempting to bring in some money-bag to and try to figure out a way to get more for what you are doing. Though it seems like eventually all the VCs try to get more for what they are doing by to charging more and doing less. Or finding some town where the people are so beat down and poor you can pay them next to nothing to simulate what artistry created.

But I don't know anything about Rapha, or Silca, or... Maybe they just stuck their dicks in the mashed-potatoes.

I can't really imagine RS selling his name to a profiteer; and I can't imagine him going out of business until he puts his torch away forever, and rides into the sunset.

[makoti]

Why can't they turn Rapha into the cycling equivalent of Wyatt's Koch's shirt company? (Wyatt is the son of Bill Koch, one of the Koch brothers.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=gZ41JGJGxYs



Rapha clown shirts?

[Caballero]

seems everythings only available in Black and Navy now.

far cry from a few seasons ago.......

[Avispa]

Equating Rapha w/ Campagnolo is all Rapha ever wanted w/ their marketing. Don´t fall for that.
Campagnolo has decades of road racing tradition.
Rapha is a mirage. They have good products... but none of the tradition they try to be tied with.



Phew! I’m relieved now...

Man, I said this from the stand point of a smaller company being acquired by a huge conglomerate... Valentino Campagnolo won’t lead the company for too much longer... I just hope his son, David will keep the tradition going regardless of the economic pressures. This is something very, very difficult to do in today’s world...

Now, just wait for Rapha quality to go down to hell... it’s happened many times over in the clothing industry... Lucky Brand and True Religion are just two that come to mind now.

They were very high quality, exclusive brands, but since they got sold, their products just became mainstream outlet mall quality garbage... I guess selling $400 jeans to overworked, under paid millennials was not a sustainable scheme... 🤦🏻

[slowpoke]

I can't really imagine RS selling his name to a profiteer; and I can't imagine him going out of business until he puts his torch away forever, and rides into the sunset.

This is fairly common in the outdoor gear industry. Build up your cottage company, get offered a good amount of cash, fulfill the terms of the contract, then quit and start a new company doing your own thing again.

Dana Gleason started Dana Designs, sold it to K2 sports, waited it out, then started Mystery Ranch.

The smart ones realize it's just a name.

[daker13]

Oh God please no. Those shirts are hideous beyond belief.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That video cracks me up--him hanging out with the models, and when he says "discoteca."

But this is a obviously a case where a billionaire's son is given a small fortune to 'follow his passion' and make incredibly ugly shirts. No one's expecting that business to be successful. If the Walton sons are avid cyclists (wasn't there an article in Bike about them trying to turn Arkansas into a mountain bike mecca?), why not just let Rapha be Rapha?

Not that I really care--I just like their bib shorts.

[oldpotatoe]

Phew! I’m relieved now...

Man, I said this from the stand point of a smaller company being acquired by a huge conglomerate... Valentino Campagnolo won’t lead the company for too much longer... I just hope his son, David will keep the tradition going regardless of the economic pressures. This is something very, very difficult to do in today’s world...

Now, just wait for Rapha quality to go down to hell... it’s happened many times over in the clothing industry... Lucky Brand and True Religion are just two that come to mind now.

They were very high quality, exclusive brands, but since they got sold, their products just became mainstream outlet mall quality garbage... I guess selling $400 jeans to overworked, under paid millennials was not a sustainable scheme... ������������

Hope his son(or whomever takes over) doesn't make the same mistakes Valentino did..namely MTB stuff..Altho VERY nice stuff, too many groups, and shimano did them in in the MTB department(Suntour also)..Clothes, wheels, high end racy stuff..I like their lineup right now..

and the next 12s 'stuff' you see will be...wireless, is what I hear..

apologize for the thread drift...

[AngryScientist]

i do hope they re-organize and re-do their sales strategy.

the last big sale was indicative of what's wrong.

SO many emails.

30% off sale items!

40% off sale items!

final sale week, 50% off sale items!

new lines added to sale!

dont miss out, huge savings!



no one wants to be the sucker who pays msrp when there is a sale tomorrow. i just want to know what the fair price is, and be able to pay that price any day of the year.

i hope they slim the line down to a handful of quality core products and stick to reasonable pricing. we'll see i guess.

[ERK55]

Re: Their lineup.
Because saddles disappeared from the website does that mean they were discontinued?

[Cicli]

Re: Their lineup.
Because saddles disappeared from the website does that mean they were discontinued?

No, means they are out if them. As in sold out. They may or may not be back. I think their saddle is designed for use with their bibs only. Mismatch may cause your ass to explode.

Looks like Rapha and Lynskey should team up.
Good product, not a good value on account of the constant sales and undercutting themselves.
Bummer.

[R3awak3n]

Hope his son(or whomever takes over) doesn't make the same mistakes Valentino did..namely MTB stuff..Altho VERY nice stuff, too many groups, and shimano did them in in the MTB department(Suntour also)..Clothes, wheels, high end racy stuff..I like their lineup right now..

and the next 12s 'stuff' you see will be...wireless, is what I hear..

apologize for the thread drift...

12 speed wireless..... campagnolo..... making me spend money.


As far as rapha goes. I love the sales, I have only once bought rapha not on sale (leg warmers, I needed them the next day and was by the store) but not a good strategy and as angry said, who wants to buy $300 bibs and later see them for $115. The saddles had not even been out for a while and were at 50% off.

I think the core line was smart, its nice atuff for the peoce and dis not cheapen the brand but why buy that when 3 months later you can get the nicer classic for cheaper. I hope they stick around though, I like the product .


As far as the club houses, I doubt they make much money

[colker]

Hope his son(or whomever takes over) doesn't make the same mistakes Valentino did..namely MTB stuff..Altho VERY nice stuff, too many groups, and shimano did them in in the MTB department(Suntour also)..Clothes, wheels, high end racy stuff..I like their lineup right now..

and the next 12s 'stuff' you see will be...wireless, is what I hear..

apologize for the thread drift...

Their mechanical 12 is perfect from what i hear.

[AngryScientist]

As far as the club houses, I doubt they make much money

agreed. the double edged sword problem is that the clubhouses are all in desirable neighborhoods.

you have to staff stores in major metro areas with good people making a somewhat living wage and pay big overhead numbers for rent/utilities - all to sell the same products you sell online. add to that outfitting each store with pro commercial grade barista equipment, televisions, etc.

keeping and maintaining a current production fleet of top end carbon bikes at cheap rental rates probably isnt too cost effective either.

the idea is good, but i dont see the cash flow equation working for them on these.

[joosttx]

Just keep selling their merino boxer briefs please. They are the best the absolutely best.

[glepore]

i do hope they re-organize and re-do their sales strategy.

the last big sale was indicative of what's wrong.

SO many emails.

30% off sale items!

40% off sale items!

final sale week, 50% off sale items!

new lines added to sale!

dont miss out, huge savings!



no one wants to be the sucker who pays msrp when there is a sale tomorrow. i just want to know what the fair price is, and be able to pay that price any day of the year.

i hope they slim the line down to a handful of quality core products and stick to reasonable pricing. we'll see i guess.

Same reason I have no interest in Lynskey.

[Ozz]

i do hope they re-organize and re-do their sales strategy.

the last big sale was indicative of what's wrong.

SO many emails.

30% off sale items!

40% off sale items!

final sale week, 50% off sale items!

new lines added to sale!

dont miss out, huge savings!



no one wants to be the sucker who pays msrp when there is a sale tomorrow. i just want to know what the fair price is, and be able to pay that price any day of the year.

i hope they slim the line down to a handful of quality core products and stick to reasonable pricing. we'll see i guess.
This sounds like inventory issues (overproduction)…
To preserve the brand, they need to produce only what they can sell at MSRP...this way, if you want the cool jersey / bib / jacket you have to pay full price or you won't get it...keeps the brand exclusive.

My impression is that they are trying to find that point as well as the product mix. Rapid growth, over production, bloated payroll, not profitable are just symptoms of this. I don't know how long they have been owned by VC, but it seems like they are acting like a start up.

I hope they figure it out...I think they make cool stuff. I have a jersey (pink, Hampsten Gavia jersey) and would like to try more of their stuff.

Maybe they need to run it like a wine club.....join the club, every year you get the new kit at 20% off.....non members pay full price. Focus on subscription sales??

my $0.02

[OtayBW]

I like their stuff quite well, but for me, the branding was more 'in your face' than I cared for.....

[dbnm]

I don't need or want a Rapha branded sleeping bag or down jacket.

They need to stick with the things that make cycling better and enjoyable.

[Cicli]

I like their stuff quite well, but for me, the branding was more 'in your face' than I cared for.....

You mean all the dudes with scruffy beards photographed in black and white?

Rapha comes across like they are trying to sell some history thet they dont yet have.
It is nice stuff though.

Bummer, I did want to try one of the artesinal crafted, free range, organic, non GMO saddles. :bike:

[peanutgallery]

Overhead is killing bike and ski places in the metro DC and Baltimore markets

If you're going to own a shop...own your building. In order to do so, be realistic. Everyone wants a garagemahal with crazy inventory and a cool lounge with all the knickknacks but I would much rather have a strong staff that's knowledgeable and paid enough to hang around...and enough left over for good beer.

The store thing had to be a killer, ever take a look at commercial leases?

agreed. the double edged sword problem is that the clubhouses are all in desirable neighborhoods.

you have to staff stores in major metro areas with good people making a somewhat living wage and pay big overhead numbers for rent/utilities - all to sell the same products you sell online. add to that outfitting each store with pro commercial grade barista equipment, televisions, etc.

keeping and maintaining a current production fleet of top end carbon bikes at cheap rental rates probably isnt too cost effective either.

the idea is good, but i dont see the cash flow equation working for them on these.

[makoti]

Overhead is killing bike and ski places in the metro DC and Baltimore markets

If you're going to own a shop...own your building. In order to do so, be realistic. Everyone wants a garagemahal with crazy inventory and a cool lounge with all the knickknacks but I would much rather have a strong staff that's knowledgeable and paid enough to hang around...and enough left over for good beer.

The store thing had to be a killer, ever take a look at commercial leases?

A local shop just sent out an email that they re-opened one store & are now brewing their own beer in store. I'm glad it's far enough away that it won't be hard to avoid.

[charliedid]

I think Rapha will be in better shape on all fronts a year from now.

[chiasticon]

Also, helmet and shoes are no longer offered.I think this is in reaction to Giro manufacturing both of those items for Rapha, and Giro being owned by Vista Outdoor, who own companies that manufacture assault rifles. after the Parkland school shooting, this was going around a lot and people were hitting Rapha hard to end their relationship with Giro. they pulled the shoes and helmets from their site and sent out an email explaining why. looks like they haven't figured out a way to manufacture them elsewhere yet, and have just sold off remaining stock.

as far as the overall thread topic... seems to me they had a good thing going then branched out over and over, but not all of it panned out. so kill what's not working, simplify, get the numbers back in order, then branch out again into what is more likely to work. trouble now is more and more brands are making what was originally working so well for them.

also, yeah marking last season's items down to half price twice a year isn't a great idea. people ride every year; they'll buy stuff that's out of season and save it until next year. this just de-values your brand and teaches people to be content with having last season's stuff (like it's really changed much, other than colors) because hey, you can actually afford Rapha that way. just mark the crap down a bit to begin with, and never have more than 20% off sales.

[MattTuck]

You mean all the dudes with scruffy beards photographed in black and white?

Rapha comes across like they are trying to sell some history thet they dont yet have.
It is nice stuff though.

Bummer, I did want to try one of the artesinal crafted, free range, organic, non GMO saddles. :bike:

I'm not sure they were trying to sell a legacy that the brand had. I think they built their brand around a legacy and history of cycling, and appreciation for certain aspects of the sport that most other brands had really stopped caring about.

Many other brands made technically advanced clothing, and focused their branding on being fast, and the latest and greatest materials. Rapha saw a niche to focus on other aspects, and (I'd argue) those really resonated with a lot of people in a way that assos (for instance) marketing did not.

https://racycles.azureedge.net/assets/standard/40101/large/Assos_TTiburu_1.JPG

[charliedid]

[QUOTE=MattTuck;2423967]I'm not sure they were trying to sell a legacy that the brand had. I think they built their brand around a legacy and history of cycling, and appreciation for certain aspects of the sport that most other brands had really stopped caring about.

Many other brands made technically advanced clothing, and focused their branding on being fast, and the latest and greatest materials. Rapha saw a niche to focus on other aspects, and (I'd argue) those really resonated with a lot of people in a way that assos (for instance) marketing did not."

---------------------

Rapha still wants to get more people on bikes, racing or riding and doing so gaining customers, even if they are in team/club kit some of the time. I'd say it has played that roll pretty well so far, in Chicago.

Example A: I was unable to make it this time but I know many people who did and the past rides they have done around here were well attended and high quality events that are not for the faint of heart or legs. https://theradavist.com/2018/08/driftless-in-the-blue-mounds-kevin-sparrow/#1

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=MattTuck;2423967]I'm not sure they were trying to sell a legacy that the brand had. I think they built their brand around a legacy and history of cycling, and appreciation for certain aspects of the sport that most other brands had really stopped caring about.

Many other brands made technically advanced clothing, and focused their branding on being fast, and the latest and greatest materials. Rapha saw a niche to focus on other aspects, and (I'd argue) those really resonated with a lot of people in a way that assos (for instance) marketing did not.


I agree..Rapha is selling lifestyle, and many who view their ads and wee movies aspire to that lifestyle..pretty smart, IMHO, but yes, they need to 'do one thing and do it well'...cycling..not jeans or whatever.

I'll leave out the PG-13 ads of women cyclists.:eek:

[Alaska Mike]

Just curious- when did they start selling at other retailers again? Just saw Competitive Cyclist was selling Rapha again.

[charliedid]

Just curious- when did they start selling at other retailers again? Just saw Competitive Cyclist was selling Rapha again.

Not surprising, given that for a while Brendan Quirk who founded CC ran Rapha for the US market. Now promoting cycling back in Arkansas.

[chiasticon]

Just curious- when did they start selling at other retailers again? Just saw Competitive Cyclist was selling Rapha again.I believe CC only has their sale/closeout goods though.

[kingpin75s]

Just keep selling their merino boxer briefs please. They are the best the absolutely best.

^ This. I wear Rapha every day. It's just a secret ;)

[corky]

Thing is their city stuff.... jeans, sweaters, shirts does well in .......cities.

Eyeweear,, helmets, shoes and saddles.........nah.....others do it better.

Always an admirer of their cyclocross collection......were they the first to have one?

[dbnm]

Off the bike, I do wear Rapha shorts, pants and shirts. But, I buy these items only when they are on sale.

I don't wear Rapha eyewear or helmets because I don't like them.

Rapha Climbing shoes were awful on MY feet. Sent them back.

The cross collection is awesome.


Thing is their city stuff.... jeans, sweaters, shirts does well in .......cities.

Eyeweear,, helmets, shoes and saddles.........nah.....others do it better.

Always an admirer of their cyclocross collection......were they the first to have one?

[weisan]

Rapha "Why"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xhdxRSm-MU

[cgolvin]

Bummer, I did want to try one of the artesinal crafted, free range, organic, non GMO saddles. :bike:

Good news for you, then — they still have them in stock in the shops.

[m4rk540]

As been said before, Rapha is a lifestyle brand or marketing concern. And that's reflected in how protective or defensive individuals become when the company is critiqued. I'm not aware of other cycling apparel brands where users are as emotionally invested. You make fun or Rapha, you're making fun of the people who buy Rapha. You mock Assos, you're mocking the company. Even small brands such as Swrve don't manifest that type of loyalty or projection. I think Rapha is just trying to figure out a way to continue growing while leveraging that attachment or narrative. Make more money from the suckers! Hahaha, just joking. :p

[Alaska Mike]

I'm a big fan of their merino wool short sleeve and sleeveless base layers. I have quite a few of them. Have quite a few of their cycling caps as well, because the brim size is right for me and they are pretty durable. I have a softshell jacket that does its job admirably.

The bibs? Meh. Just don't fit me right (too big or too small). Other small pieces of kit I've been less enthused about. Since I ride for a team and want to thank our sponsors by being a riding billboard, I have little interest in most of their stuff. The urban and off-bike stuff I have zero interest in.

Honestly, if it's not on significant sale, I don't even bother. I have what I need and can wait (or seek another vendor). That, as others have said, may be what led to this point. It also can be that they've developed a stigma in certain circles because of their branding efforts which has hurt sales. They're certainly not the only show in town anymore, and people will only buy the "bespoke" lie for so long.

[avalonracing]

As been said before, Rapha is a lifestyle brand or marketing concern. And that's reflected in how protective or defensive individuals become when the company is critiqued. I'm not aware of other cycling apparel brands where users are as emotionally invested. You make fun or Rapha, you're making fun of the people who buy Rapha. You mock Assos, you're mocking the company. Even small brands such as Swrve don't manifest that type of loyalty or projection. I think Rapha is just trying to figure out a way to continue growing while leveraging that attachment or narrative. Make more money from the suckers! Hahaha, just joking. :p

Make Rapha Great Again? :rolleyes:

[m4rk540]

Make Rapha Great Again? :rolleyes:

No COLLUSION with Giro!

[macaroon]

They could've been one of the coolest cycling brands, but instead they're one of the uncoolest. I guess that goes with the territory though.

Perhaps a different marketing strategy is needed.

[sfghbiker]

i have some of their stuff. every single thing was bought on sale. People like me are probably the reason the brand is in trouble. The kit works well. I don't think its amazing. Wouldnt change my life at all if one day I woke up and Rapha was gone. I guess I haven't been able to swallow the Kool-Aid

[avalonracing]

i have some of their stuff. every single thing was bought on sale. People like me are probably the reason the brand is in trouble. The kit works well. I don't think its amazing. Wouldnt change my life at all if one day I woke up and Rapha was gone. I guess I haven't been able to swallow the Kool-Aid

I usually wear a team/club jerseys but tried a basic black jersey from Rapha and wasn't all that impressed. I guess I just hate how wool stretches when you put something bigger than a pack of Gu in the rear pocket. I do really like my Search and State jersey that I got at half price and would definitely buy another... at half price (as I just can't spend $175 on a short sleeve jersey in good conscience).

[jmoore]

Oh God please no. Those shirts are hideous beyond belief.



^this

[dbnm]

How and why?

They could've been one of the coolest cycling brands, but instead they're one of the uncoolest. I guess that goes with the territory though.

Perhaps a different marketing strategy is needed.

[wc1934]

Ever since the sale (to the Waltons) the whole company morale and way of working has gone downhill.

People in the USA have also lost jobs.... A friend took a job (and relocated for it) in the US, just to get axed less than a year later... as a result of this I will never buy or visit a Rapha store again!

It’s a pity when things like this happen. A company has a good track record, they have a good product, but then they are sold by those that really did not have their heart and soul on it... one has to wonder if some day things like these will happen to Campagnolo and others like them.
yup - Walmart

[happycampyer]

No COLLUSION with Giro!You mean, NO COLLUSION with the Waltons! no wait...

[charliedid]

"They could've been one of the coolest cycling brands, but instead they're one of the uncoolest. I guess that goes with the territory though.

Perhaps a different marketing strategy is needed."


Which one is the coolest?

[CunegoFan]

As been said before, Rapha is a lifestyle brand or marketing concern. And that's reflected in how protective or defensive individuals become when the company is critiqued. I'm not aware of other cycling apparel brands where users are as emotionally invested. You make fun or Rapha, you're making fun of the people who buy Rapha. You mock Assos, you're mocking the company. Even small brands such as Swrve don't manifest that type of loyalty or projection. I think Rapha is just trying to figure out a way to continue growing while leveraging that attachment or narrative. Make more money from the suckers! Hahaha, just joking. :p

The funny thing is those suckers will deny til they're blue in the face that they bought because of the image and marketing. I guess the company expends all that effort and money for nothing.

[charliedid]

The funny thing is those suckers will deny til they're blue in the face that they bought because of the image and marketing. I guess the company expends all that effort and money for nothing.

Sigh* I'm such a sucker.

[cgolvin]

The funny thing is those suckers will deny til they're blue in the face that they bought because of the image and marketing. I guess the company expends all that effort and money for nothing.


Most people claim that they are immune to marketing, irrespective of who's doing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grilledcheese]

Some of their kit is nice, but other products are crap and over marketed. The amount of sales and promos they offer clearly showed that they were charging too much for retail products.

[oldpotatoe]

Some of their kit is nice, but other products are crap and over marketed. The amount of sales and promos they offer clearly showed that they were charging too much for retail products.

Really hard to paint with that broad brush w/o knowing the financials of the company. When a company gets in trouble, it's rarely because they 'charge too much for retail products'..maybe they aren't charging enough? I think they lost sight of their core product line and are attempting to come back to that, 'do one thing and do it well', type thing..IMHO, of course.

[CNY rider]

Really hard to paint with that broad brush w/o knowing the financials of the company. When a company gets in trouble, it's rarely because they 'charge too much for retail products'..maybe they aren't charging enough? I think they lost sight of their core product line and are attempting to come back to that, 'do one thing and do it well', type thing..IMHO, of course.

Violently agree with this.
If I'm in Rapha management I never, ever want to see another "sale" event like what just took place. I'm guessing they feel the same way, and blew out everything including the kitchen sink in one big ugly event to get it all over with and get back on the right track.

[R3awak3n]

Violently agree with this.
If I'm in Rapha management I never, ever want to see another "sale" event like what just took place. I'm guessing they feel the same way, and blew out everything including the kitchen sink in one big ugly event to get it all over with and get back on the right track.

I don't think sales are a bad thing but I agree for the most part. Maybe do less sales (sucks for us, these last year sales have been awesome). But sure its dilating the brand (I don't care, I rather get nice stuff for affordable prices).

Thats the thing, are they selling more by keeping the brand expensive and selling less, or diluting the brand and selling a ton more (they were selling so much, their system was messed up and CS said they were backed up).

But maybe they went too much, I got some crazy good deals but I bet they still made money on those.

I want to see rapha keep going, their CS is great, products are great, club houses are great (I get coffee there and RCC is a killer deal) and the free returns is AMAZING.

[colker]

As been said before, Rapha is a lifestyle brand or marketing concern. And that's reflected in how protective or defensive individuals become when the company is critiqued. I'm not aware of other cycling apparel brands where users are as emotionally invested. You make fun or Rapha, you're making fun of the people who buy Rapha. You mock Assos, you're mocking the company. Even small brands such as Swrve don't manifest that type of loyalty or projection. I think Rapha is just trying to figure out a way to continue growing while leveraging that attachment or narrative. Make more money from the suckers! Hahaha, just joking. :p

Rapha is very good at marketing. They can´t help it. It would be like asking Calvin Klein to avoid sex in their campaigns in the 80s. CK sold you clothes but it felt they were selling better sex.
Rapha takes a good product, wraps it w/ bw pics of "hard men", velominatti tales and aims your wallet. They are selling something which was never sold before therefore kept preserved in our imagination. That´s why their marketing bothers so much and that´s why it´s effective.

[charliedid]

I think it was all a growth/forecasting misstep which is not abnormal for what they were hoping to achieve and for how quickly the brand grew.

It could have been much worse I think.

[chiasticon]

Violently agree with this.
If I'm in Rapha management I never, ever want to see another "sale" event like what just took place. I'm guessing they feel the same way, and blew out everything including the kitchen sink in one big ugly event to get it all over with and get back on the right track.been buying their stuff since 2011 and they've had two major sales every year; summer and winter. the sales have of course gotten much larger, because their product line has. and in the last week or so of the sale, they bring out stock from 2-3 years back too; a true clearance sale. now, they're running the sales more often than twice a year. and it's not uncommon to get 50% off many items. it didn't used to be like that seven years ago. is that hurting their financials? I don't know. but it's definitely changed the way people shop for their stuff.

[peanutgallery]

There's an old adage in the bike industry about making a small fortune in it...start with a large one.

In this situation it would be funny if it ate a Walton

Can't tell you how many times i've seen someone catapulted out of a Tony Robbins seminar and use their enthusiasm to take a great concept and business plan to completely wreck it by treating it like they are a CEO in the corner office. Growth is slow and realistic and you have to play a lot of small ball to make a few bucks, the Industry is generally tough. Take look at any successful org in the bike Industry and you'll find a lot of owners changing flats on a Saturday afternoon...or something of that nature.Tony Robbins didn't talk about that. RS and Kirk sweep their own floors

Rapha is just the latest example, selling lifestyle but not substance. All while leveraged to the hilt

[Butch]

There's an old adage in the bike industry about making a small fortune in it...start with a large one.

In this situation it would be funny if it ate a Walton

Can't tell you how many times i've seen someone catapulted out of a Tony Robbins seminar and use their enthusiasm to take a great concept and business plan to completely wreck it by treating it like they are a CEO in the corner office. Growth is slow and realistic and you have to play a lot of small ball to make a few bucks, the Industry is generally tough. Take look at any successful org in the bike Industry and you'll find a lot of owners changing flats on a Saturday afternoon...or something of that nature.Tony Robbins didn't talk about that. RS and Kirk sweep their own floors

Rapha is just the latest example, selling lifestyle but not substance. All while leveraged to the hilt
Well stated peanutgallery. In my 30 years in the industry I have seen this happen with bike manufacturers, various brands and bike shops where a new owner comes in with a lack of understanding about how niche parts of the bike world are. I do think Simon started and ran Rapha on substance, quality clothing with a specific style. The question is how big can that get?
I believe in this day and age the high end will stay strong but only if the story, the product quality and customer service lives up to the price. Once the price reductions start it is hard to expect customers to pay retail again. In the coming years it will be interesting, there are several companies out there where the principles are aging out and some will be bought up and...

[makoti]

Sigh* I'm such a sucker.

Me too. Funny thing is, I thought I bought it, tried it, and decided it worked for me better than the alternatives, both in fit & price. I feel dirty...

[makoti]

Violently agree with this.
If I'm in Rapha management I never, ever want to see another "sale" event like what just took place. I'm guessing they feel the same way, and blew out everything including the kitchen sink in one big ugly event to get it all over with and get back on the right track.

I've only been buying Rapha for a few years, but this last sale didn't strike me as any different than the previous ones. Increasing discounts as the end of the sale came, so you could wait but good luck on sizing. Only the very large or small sizes remained by that point.
We'll see what comes next, but I think all of this is way overblown.

[CNY rider]

I've only been buying Rapha for a few years, but this last sale didn't strike me as any different than the previous ones. Increasing discounts as the end of the sale came, so you could wait but good luck on sizing. Only the very large or small sizes remained by that point.
We'll see what comes next, but I think all of this is way overblown.

I've been wearing Rapha for years.
This sale seemed different to me.
So many pieces on sale, for along period of time, with increasingly desperate email pitches.
I think they should do a focused sale over the holiday season, with one really good deal a day for 12 days or so, and a quick general inventory reduction sale in the summer. But don't email me several times a week about it.

[simonov]

As been said before, Rapha is a lifestyle brand or marketing concern. And that's reflected in how protective or defensive individuals become when the company is critiqued. I'm not aware of other cycling apparel brands where users are as emotionally invested. You make fun or Rapha, you're making fun of the people who buy Rapha. You mock Assos, you're mocking the company. Even small brands such as Swrve don't manifest that type of loyalty or projection. I think Rapha is just trying to figure out a way to continue growing while leveraging that attachment or narrative. Make more money from the suckers! Hahaha, just joking. :p

For what it's worth, when I mock Assos, I'm also mocking all the people who wear giant houndstooth sleeve jerseys, bibs with built in banana hammocks, and EDM dance club glasses.

Not everything in Rapha's lineup is great, but their outerwear and their Pro Team kit is more comfortable than almost everything from almost every other brand. At least for me. And I don't even want to like it.

[MattTuck]

The core rapha products stand on their own. Not liking the company because you think the branding and/or marketing are disingenuous is any person's right. But really, unless you've tried their products, your opinion is not worth much when it comes to the real world.

This goes for any company, not just Rapha.

[dbnm]

Exactly

The core rapha products stand on their own. Not liking the company because you think the branding and/or marketing are disingenuous is any person's right. But really, unless you've tried their products, your opinion is not worth much when it comes to the real world.

This goes for any company, not just Rapha.

[m4rk540]

For what it's worth, when I mock Assos, I'm also mocking all the people who wear giant houndstooth sleeve jerseys, bibs with built in banana hammocks, and EDM dance club glasses.

Not everything in Rapha's lineup is great, but their outerwear and their Pro Team kit is more comfortable than almost everything from almost every other brand. At least for me. And I don't even want to like it.

Justin Williams doesn't wear Zeghos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgS6IohpqjY

[charliedid]

News Flash!

I wear Assos as well and sometimes I mix them with the Raphas. OMG

I can't help it I love the Assos models.

Bike clothing, amiright?

For the love of...

[joosttx]

Merino boxer briefs......


the best.

[fiamme red]

Just keep selling their merino boxer briefs please. They are the best the absolutely best.Merino boxer briefs......


the best.How many other merino boxer briefs have you tried besides Rapha's?

[joosttx]

How many other merino boxer briefs have you tried besides Rapha's?

icebreakers and smartwool. Both sucked. They were too hot. Rapha merino boxers are sublime.

[m4rk540]

Does merino help prevent jock itch and do the odor resistant qualities of wool allow the region to stay as fresh as a summer's eve?

[peanutgallery]

Think fresh spring rain

Does merino help prevent jock itch and do the odor resistant qualities of wool allow the region to stay as fresh as a summer's eve?

[joosttx]

Does merino help prevent jock itch and do the odor resistant qualities of wool allow the region to stay as fresh as a summer's eve?

Yes and Yes. They are the best.

[pdmtong]

wow, it has come to this. not sure whether to cheer, laugh, or cry...

reveal: I have a pair and love them.

[weisan]

I think you posted on the wrong thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=227670).

[oldpotatoe]

I think you posted on the wrong thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=227670).

I guess no Rapha available at the co-op..:eek:

[charliedid]

Merino boxer briefs......


the best.


Huh, you've never mentioned that before! You'll find this hard to believe but at one point I had 6 pair and now have zero. I think I had a size too small or something.

I agree about ice breaker and Smartwool.

[adrien]

Interesting read.

I used to do a lot of corporate M&A work, including valuations, integrations, layoffs and the like. I also own a lot of Rapha kit, as well as some of the off-bike clothing. I'm active with their community. When I find something that fits, I buy a few, as the quality is amazing and I like the less-flash look.

Rapha is great at marketing, is marketing the entire sport and an outdoor adventure lifestyle, has excellent customer service and many, many good products. They have elevated things like the handmade bike industry through the Continental series, and that had very little to do with selling clothing, but advanced the sport and helped folks like IF and breadwinner along the way. They never appeared to be especially good at making maximum profits, but in part that's because it seemed it wasn't their focus. Their focus was on becoming known, building brand equity (I'd imagine their unaided brand awareness and net promoter scores are very high) and getting people on bikes. They've done that very, very well.

Now there's new ownership, and it appears that they are attempting to parlay that market presence into greater profits. I think that's fine. And Simon et al built it knowing that time would come. It's math and capitalism.

To achieve that is different than what came before. It's a different focus on product, on cost to get it to market, on margin and on costs. On the latter, a real cost is people. And, critically, the people who achieved all the brand equity aren't necessarily the same people who possess the right skill set to get to profitability beyond the modest profit they returned last year. That's okay; it's just an evolution of a business.

I think and hope they'll be just fine. This, no matter how painful, is a sign of a business planning for a future, not necessarily one in trouble.

Their impact on our sport has been immense, and far beyond that of their competitors (at making bike wear). They have also paved the way for many higher-end competitors, who otherwise might not have surfaced -- shops like cafe du cycliste, morvelo, search and state, etc. as well as forcing bigger manufacturers to up their quality game (like Castelli's newer offerings). This is very good for all of us, regardless of whether we buy Rapha or not.

I like Rapha and what they've done. I like the clubhouse and the rides. I like the community and much of the gear. I understand what they're doing, and why. And I think it's okay.

[93KgBike]

Does merino help prevent jock itch and do the odor resistant qualities of wool allow the region to stay as fresh as a summer's eve?

Perhaps there is confusion about wearing magic underwear instead of washing your balls, or is this one of the excellent marketing points I missed? You'd think magic underwear would be a real profit driver... must be hype.

[joosttx]

Perhaps there is confusion about wearing magic underwear instead of washing your balls, or is this one of the excellent marketing points I missed? You'd think magic underwear would be a real profit driver... must be hype.

I find it funny that you hail from "Down South". I cannot argue with someone who is so familiar with the region of discussion.

:banana::banana:

[velofinds]

Interesting read.

I used to do a lot of corporate M&A work, including valuations, integrations, layoffs and the like. I also own a lot of Rapha kit, as well as some of the off-bike clothing. I'm active with their community. When I find something that fits, I buy a few, as the quality is amazing and I like the less-flash look.

Rapha is great at marketing, is marketing the entire sport and an outdoor adventure lifestyle, has excellent customer service and many, many good products. They have elevated things like the handmade bike industry through the Continental series, and that had very little to do with selling clothing, but advanced the sport and helped folks like IF and breadwinner along the way. They never appeared to be especially good at making maximum profits, but in part that's because it seemed it wasn't their focus. Their focus was on becoming known, building brand equity (I'd imagine their unaided brand awareness and net promoter scores are very high) and getting people on bikes. They've done that very, very well.

Now there's new ownership, and it appears that they are attempting to parlay that market presence into greater profits. I think that's fine. And Simon et al built it knowing that time would come. It's math and capitalism.

To achieve that is different than what came before. It's a different focus on product, on cost to get it to market, on margin and on costs. On the latter, a real cost is people. And, critically, the people who achieved all the brand equity aren't necessarily the same people who possess the right skill set to get to profitability beyond the modest profit they returned last year. That's okay; it's just an evolution of a business.

I think and hope they'll be just fine. This, no matter how painful, is a sign of a business planning for a future, not necessarily one in trouble.

Their impact on our sport has been immense, and far beyond that of their competitors (at making bike wear). They have also paved the way for many higher-end competitors, who otherwise might not have surfaced -- shops like cafe du cycliste, morvelo, search and state, etc. as well as forcing bigger manufacturers to up their quality game (like Castelli's newer offerings). This is very good for all of us, regardless of whether we buy Rapha or not.

I like Rapha and what they've done. I like the clubhouse and the rides. I like the community and much of the gear. I understand what they're doing, and why. And I think it's okay.

Well put -- pretty much agree with all of it.

[m4rk540]

Perhaps there is confusion about wearing magic underwear instead of washing your balls, or is this one of the excellent marketing points I missed? You'd think magic underwear would be a real profit driver... must be hype.

These guys wear merino panties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOCOm9Z0YE

[OtayBW]

Does merino help prevent jock itch and do the odor resistant qualities of wool allow the region to stay as fresh as a summer's eve?That's a whole nuther product. Actually, a whole nuther department....:)

[joosttx]

These guys wear merino panties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOCOm9Z0YE

not a bad life if you got the mustard.

[happycampyer]

These guys wear merino panties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOCOm9Z0YECashmere.

[William]

Cashmere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuN-VMsDGgM :)






William

[William]

Cashmere.

Oh, let the sun beat down upon my face
And stars fill my dream
I'm a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been...






William

[joosttx]

Rapha is hiring in SF

The Metro General Manager is responsible for driving the overall success of Rapha in their city. A commercial leader, who understands their local cycling community, the GM is the ultimate Rapha ambassador in their Metropolitan area. Overseeing both Clubhouse and local online performance the Metro GM through their strategic vision and drive for results ensures overall profitability. The General Manager is passionate about growing cycling and creates an environment where the sport can flourish. Strong collaborative skills are vital, as building relationships with the Regional and Central teams are key to achieving success.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.glassdoor.com/partner/jobListing.htm?pos%3D101%26ao%3D8095%26s%3D224%26g uid%3D00000165cc6898c2b1f9e7f91ccb27d7%26src%3DGD_ JOB_AD%26t%3DJA%26extid%3D13%26exst%3DL%26ist%3D%2 6ast%3DL%26vt%3De%26ja%3D79090232%26uido%3D24C7272 6E1972541F22C6775E82FA695%26slr%3Dtrue%26rtp%3D0%2 6cs%3D1_aaeff8ab%26cb%3D1536732731841%26jobListing Id%3D2649242866%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source% 3Djobalert%26utm_campaign%3DjobAlertAlert%26utm_co ntent%3Dja-jobtitle%26utm_term%3Dtipbelow%26encryptedUserId%3 D24C72726E1972541F22C6775E82FA695%26uvk%3DbPacock: eMBBghC8kNYcdDYYrqCFOg%26&source=gmail&ust=1536887927184000&usg=AFQjCNHLdJodL0KWNZG7M2tbZrCbTR4Y8g

[justinrchan]

I have been to a few Rapha clubhouses (SF, NY, Boulder, London, Tokyo, Seattle, LA) and the SF one was just small and the most uninviting of them all.

I would be curious if the clubhouse model is sustainable if they start popping up in every major city. Great if you are a RCC member for bike rental purposes but why buy clothes at the store when you can buy online with more selection available? They can’t be selling that much espresso to cover brick and mortar costs.

[rustychisel]

Interesting read.

I used to do a lot of corporate M&A work, including valuations, integrations, layoffs and the like. I also own a lot of Rapha kit, as well as some of the off-bike clothing. I'm active with their community. When I find something that fits, I buy a few, as the quality is amazing and I like the less-flash look.

Rapha is great at marketing, is marketing the entire sport and an outdoor adventure lifestyle, has excellent customer service and many, many good products. They have elevated things like the handmade bike industry through the Continental series, and that had very little to do with selling clothing, but advanced the sport and helped folks like IF and breadwinner along the way. They never appeared to be especially good at making maximum profits, but in part that's because it seemed it wasn't their focus. Their focus was on becoming known, building brand equity (I'd imagine their unaided brand awareness and net promoter scores are very high) and getting people on bikes. They've done that very, very well.

Now there's new ownership, and it appears that they are attempting to parlay that market presence into greater profits. I think that's fine. And Simon et al built it knowing that time would come. It's math and capitalism.

To achieve that is different than what came before. It's a different focus on product, on cost to get it to market, on margin and on costs. On the latter, a real cost is people. And, critically, the people who achieved all the brand equity aren't necessarily the same people who possess the right skill set to get to profitability beyond the modest profit they returned last year. That's okay; it's just an evolution of a business.

I think and hope they'll be just fine. This, no matter how painful, is a sign of a business planning for a future, not necessarily one in trouble.

Their impact on our sport has been immense, and far beyond that of their competitors (at making bike wear). They have also paved the way for many higher-end competitors, who otherwise might not have surfaced -- shops like cafe du cycliste, morvelo, search and state, etc. as well as forcing bigger manufacturers to up their quality game (like Castelli's newer offerings). This is very good for all of us, regardless of whether we buy Rapha or not.

I like Rapha and what they've done. I like the clubhouse and the rides. I like the community and much of the gear. I understand what they're doing, and why. And I think it's okay.


OK, interesting.

And yet if Rapha disappeared tomorrow their impact and legacy would be pretty much nil.

[joosttx]

I have been to a few Rapha clubhouses (SF, NY, Boulder, London, Tokyo, Seattle, LA) and the SF one was just small and the most uninviting of them all.

I would be curious if the clubhouse model is sustainable if they start popping up in every major city. Great if you are a RCC member for bike rental purposes but why buy clothes at the store when you can buy online with more selection available? They can’t be selling that much espresso to cover brick and mortar costs.

I think it does as it is a pretty good coffee shop in SF. I been in there say at 10 in the morning or an afternoon on a wednesday and there have always been people in there working on the laptop, chatting inside and outside having coffee.

[NewDFWrider]

I have been to a few Rapha clubhouses (SF, NY, Boulder, London, Tokyo, Seattle, LA) and the SF one was just small and the most uninviting of them all.

I would be curious if the clubhouse model is sustainable if they start popping up in every major city. Great if you are a RCC member for bike rental purposes but why buy clothes at the store when you can buy online with more selection available? They can’t be selling that much espresso to cover brick and mortar costs.

Given the locations that they've picked, I wouldn't be surprised if many were loss leaders. It's kind of like putting a store on Fifth Avenue in New York--even if you don't make a ton of money, you still get to say that you have a store on Fifth Avenue.

My alternative hypothesis is that the clubhouse might cater or appeal to a certain super-customer. In other words, customers who visit the clubhouses may also be customers who tend to spend a lot of money on Rapha gear--so why not build positive feelings for the brand?

[makoti]

And yet if Rapha disappeared tomorrow their impact and legacy would be pretty much nil.

Well, that pretty much covers almost all of us...

[dieonthishill]

OK, interesting.

And yet if Rapha disappeared tomorrow their impact and legacy would be pretty much nil.

Not true. They have done a lot to promote women's cycling.

[pdmtong]

I’m completely happy with most of my Rapha kit. Understated. Durable. And purchased at reasonable prices

I’m not pencil thin cat one shape so can’t fit some things.

Their sizing is maddening. What other brand can I be a medium large or XL?

I like that they’ve pushed some boundaries as to clothing offering. Their city stuff never made sense to me until I started a short bike commute. Too short too kit up but misery in jeans. Those pants on sale this last round and the pack jacket are perfect for my needs.

The sfrcc location is expensive but not as expensive as the Pali alto location will be. Try previous tennant where the wahlburgers is now was paying 30/month. Interesting move locating directly across from Palo Alto Bicycles. Hope they can mutually benefit.

[dynnendischord]

I grabbed a couple of items on sale at the pop-up shop in Boston during their final week. I can definitely tell it's nicer quality gear, but not worth the price. I would only pay full sticker price if the gear was made in a developed country with labor laws, quality control, etc.

[cgolvin]

I grabbed a couple of items on sale at the pop-up shop in Boston during their final week. I can definitely tell it's nicer quality gear, but not worth the price. I would only pay full sticker price if the gear was made in a developed country with labor laws, quality control, etc.

Not sure what you bought, but I have Rapha products made in Portugal, Italy, and Lithuania, which I imagine would meet your criteria.

[93KgBike]

China is a developed country, if that is what you were implying.

And America has labor laws, which did not prevent this in 1991 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire), and during 2006, 72 miners lost their lives at work, 47 by coal mining. The majority of these fatalities occurred in Kentucky and West Virginia, including the Sago Mine Disaster.

[m4rk540]

Given the locations that they've picked, I wouldn't be surprised if many were loss leaders. It's kind of like putting a store on Fifth Avenue in New York--even if you don't make a ton of money, you still get to say that you have a store on Fifth Avenue.

My alternative hypothesis is that the clubhouse might cater or appeal to a certain super-customer. In other words, customers who visit the clubhouses may also be customers who tend to spend a lot of money on Rapha gear--so why not build positive feelings for the brand?

The "super fan" strategy backfired on Burger King.

[fourspin]

It is weird to see Rapha's site so sparse right now, only dark colors. I know they just finished the sale, but usually they would have had Cross and/or fall/winter stuff rolling out by now.

I'm wondering if they will abandon cross gear this year after parting ways with Powers?

[Heisenberg]

Their sizing is maddening. What other brand can I be a medium large or XL?

I like that they’ve pushed some boundaries as to clothing offering. Their city stuff never made sense to me until I started a short bike commute. Too short too kit up but misery in jeans. Those pants on sale this last round and the pack jacket are perfect for my needs.

The sfrcc location is expensive but not as expensive as the Pali alto location will be. Try previous tennant where the wahlburgers is now was paying 30/month. Interesting move locating directly across from Palo Alto Bicycles. Hope they can mutually benefit.

Welcome to a diversified supply chain making product out of textiles with varying degrees of stretch. Nightmarish!

PA location will be good for them, if they can do it right.

[dbnm]

Look for new products tomorrow, including lots of dark green items.

[andeww]

China is a developed country, if that is what you were implying.

And America has labor laws, which did not prevent this in 1991 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chicken_processing_plant_fire), and during 2006, 72 miners lost their lives at work, 47 by coal mining. The majority of these fatalities occurred in Kentucky and West Virginia, including the Sago Mine Disaster.

i think he is pointing towards labor exploitation versus labor safety
--- really a conversation that will always turn political and in turn locked

[m4rk540]

I picked up a set of Praxis rings when they were first introduced. Read the manual online, installed them and proceeded to endo on the first hill, I rode. Turns out I installed the inner ring as I've installed all rings. Unfortunately for the small Praxis ring that meant it was inside out, wrong orientation...whatever. I called them and their VP returned my call within minutes. Was pretty upset that I almost injured myself for being an early adopter of an obviously defective product. To add insult to injury, when I purchased the rings I believed they were manufactured in the US as Praxis disingenuously promoted that they were stamped in a foundry and not CNCed. The pic they included in marketing materials showed what looked like a turn of the century American mill. VP listened to me patiently asked me to check the orientation and stated that nowhere in the packing or on the product was there a made in America claim. Well, they're made in China.

Best chainrings on the market.

[velofinds]

OK, interesting.

And yet if Rapha disappeared tomorrow their impact and legacy would be pretty much nil.

This is silly and decidedly false. All I have to do is look at something like Cyclingtips' Emporium (https://shop.cyclingtips.com/promo/shop-mens-products) to see Rapha's influence -- their fingerprints are all over modern kit design. Nothing like the pre-Rapha landscape.

[R3awak3n]

This is silly and decidedly false. All I have to do is look at something like Cyclingtips' Emporium (https://shop.cyclingtips.com/promo/shop-mens-products) to see Rapha's influence -- their fingerprints are all over modern kit design. Nothing like the pre-Rapha landscape.

agree 100%. if it wasnt for rapha you wouldn't have your maap, PNS, *insert whatever designy kit*. People can hate rapha all they want, complain they are all about marketing but they have had heavy influence in cycling that will be around for years to come.


but yah, yall can go back to wearing your sierra nevada jerseys.

[cgolvin]

And yet if Rapha disappeared tomorrow their impact and legacy would be pretty much nil.

This is silly and decidedly false. All I have to do is look at something like Cyclingtips' Emporium (https://shop.cyclingtips.com/promo/shop-mens-products) to see Rapha's influence -- their fingerprints are all over modern kit design. Nothing like the pre-Rapha landscape.

I just assumed he was speaking from a perspective of geologic time.

[fiamme red]

agree 100%. if it wasnt for rapha you wouldn't have your maap, PNS, *insert whatever designy kit*. People can hate rapha all they want, complain they are all about marketing but they have had heavy influence in cycling that will be around for years to come.


but yah, yall can go back to wearing your sierra nevada jerseys.I've never owned a Sierra Nevada jersey, and I was wearing understated jerseys long before Rapha was founded. What revolutionary quality did Rapha bring in design, besides the pink and black color schemes and the contrast stripe on the sleeve?

[joosttx]

I've never owned a Sierra Nevada jersey, and I was wearing understated jerseys long before Rapha was founded. What revolutionary quality did Rapha bring in design, besides the pink and black color schemes and the contrast stripe on the sleeve?

It’s a shame you didn’t have the vision to monetize your cycling fashion sense.

[fiamme red]

It’s a shame you didn’t have the vision to monetize your cycling fashion sense.But I wasn't the exception. Most of the people I rode with wore understated jerseys too. If you believe Rapha's account, you couldn't find a jersey that wasn't garish and hideous before they came along.

http://www.velonews.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957

Simon Mottram: It’s a simple story, really. I was just a customer, an active rider, not a racer. I don’t come from racing bikes, I always rode bikes. I was in my early 30s and I would go down to my local bike shop (Condor Cycles) and I would go in wanting to feed my habit, spend my money on something. I wasn’t really interested in metal and I couldn’t buy a bike every couple weeks. But I’d come away not spending any money, stuck with the clothing, accessories, and surroundings of the bike. It was so horrible; the quality was really bad. Which is bad enough, because I got to the point in my life that I wanted good stuff when I ride a bike, I really want stuff that works, that didn’t compromise. So, the quality was bad but it was also pretty horrible to look at. You compromise on performance and quality all at the same time. Back in 2000 or 2001, cycling kit was polyester. It still largely is. But it’s just really cheap polyester. You couldn’t buy a jersey for more than 40 pounds, 60 bucks. That’s what the industry said people would pay, and yet I would regularly go buy a pair of jeans for 200 bucks. I was used to spending money on stuff that I didn’t care about. Yet the thing I cared about the most in the world, my passion, where it is quite hard because you carry all the **** with you and you’re going on the bike for seven or eight hours in different terrain, you need your stuff to work really well, and I was prepared to pay for it. Not only that, but why can’t you have stuff that looks good? So why should I compromise performance and style; why should I make these sacrifices? It didn’t make sense. So it used to really frustrate the hell out of me.

[velofinds]

I'll just note that understated and fashion-forward are not necessarily synonymous.

[fiamme red]

I'll just note that understated and fashion-forward are not necessarily synonymous.So what I'm asking is, what made Rapha radical in its style and design? I just don't see that cycling clothes have changed much in appearance since they came along. In price, sure, and that was one of Simon Mottram's goals, since he was unsatisfied only spending $60 on a jersey.

[fiamme red]

https://www.ft.com/content/dc105d14-b81d-11e8-bbc3-ccd7de085ffe

"Rapha, the upmarket cycling brand, has cancelled almost all its forthcoming riding holidays amid restructuring and a wave of redundancies. The company had planned about 80 cycling holidays for 2019 but now says it will run only six..."

[colker]

But I wasn't the exception. Most of the people I rode with wore understated jerseys too. If you believe Rapha's account, you couldn't find a jersey that wasn't garish and hideous before they came along.

http://www.velonews.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957

Oh yeah; Rapha made cycling more expensive. Next they adopted the typical business model of the millenium which is grow fast, sell big and leave the scene.
They (or "Simon"... but i don´t call people I don´t know by the first name) do not belong to cycling tradition and did not come from any deep cycling scene.
Well..it´s a free world. Why not?... but i see a clear difference between Rapha and Assos.

[R3awak3n]

they have had so many designs. sure the color stripe is the most popular one but their cx stuff was great, the hampsten gavia, there has been a ton of nicely designed stuff. Even if its different color combinations, it seems like whatever its just colors but it separates them to other brands. You could buy quality jerseys before (assos and some others) but they were either mostly ugly or just 1 color.


The funny thing is I feel like jersey used to be amazing back in the day, when they were merino, they had great design.... eventually they started looking cheap, ugly logos, ugly colors and just feel cheap.

[R3awak3n]

Oh yeah; Rapha made cycling more expensive. Next they adopted the typical business model of the millenium which is grow fast, sell big and leave the scene.
They (or "Simon"... but i don´t call people I don´t know by the first name) do not belong to cycling tradition and did not come from any deep cycling scene.
Well..it´s a free world. Why not?... but i see a clear difference between Rapha and Assos.

cycling was already expensive. There were expensive brands before rapha... There were also cheap jerseys... those are still available today

[fiamme red]

cycling was already expensive. There were expensive brands before rapha... There were also cheap jerseys... those are still available todayA big part of Rapha marketing has been that the products are more expensive than the competition, which implies that they must be better.

I can get a standard water bottle for $6 or $7, while a Rapha "bidon" is, what, $20 or so?

[R3awak3n]

Oh yeah; Rapha made cycling more expensive. Next they adopted the typical business model of the millenium which is grow fast, sell big and leave the scene.
They (or "Simon"... but i don´t call people I don´t know by the first name) do not belong to cycling tradition and did not come from any deep cycling scene.
Well..it´s a free world. Why not?... but i see a clear difference between Rapha and Assos.

A big part of Rapha marketing has been that the products are more expensive than the competition, which implies that they must be better.

I can get a standard water bottle for $6 or $7, while a Rapha "bidon" is, what, $20 or so?

its $11 and how many other companies have bottles that cost more than that? a lot of them.

here is a spesh bottle for more

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/purist-watergate-water-bottle/p/131315?gclid=CjwKCAjwuO3cBRAyEiwAzOxKso_QZgKz3QY5s 0WjTte0uknULPbZjISxL4rWUkNYix45flHI-19yQRoC35kQAvD_BwE

I never seen their marketing saying they are expensive or better than the cheap brand but they definitely look and feel like a high end company and they are priced accordingly (funny enough, compared to companies like gucci, balenciaga, ect, they are relatively low end of clothing industry).

there are other things you pay for that is not just the product, customer service, free returns, boxes and bags they come in that look and feel nice.. this may not be what you personally want but some people out there appreciate that stuff. I do but I will not pay premium for it and why i only buy it on sale.


I don't think we will ever agree, and I am ok with it. I am not a rapha fanboy. I have some of their stuff but also have a stuff from other companies. It just blows my mind that here on paceline there is just so much distaste for them, it feels like people rather them not exist. feels so personal.

[93KgBike]

i think he is pointing towards labor exploitation versus labor safety
--- really a conversation that will always turn political and in turn locked

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fa9%2Fcc%2Ff8%2Fa9ccf82bf5f 0b5e7bbd99882728d67a7--political-cartoons-labor.jpg&f=1

[colker]

its $11 and how many other companies have bottles that cost more than that? a lot of them.

here is a spesh bottle for more

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/purist-watergate-water-bottle/p/131315?gclid=CjwKCAjwuO3cBRAyEiwAzOxKso_QZgKz3QY5s 0WjTte0uknULPbZjISxL4rWUkNYix45flHI-19yQRoC35kQAvD_BwE

I never seen their marketing saying they are expensive or better than the cheap brand but they definitely look and feel like a high end company and they are priced accordingly (funny enough, compared to companies like gucci, balenciaga, ect, they are relatively low end of clothing industry).

there are other things you pay for that is not just the product, customer service, free returns, boxes and bags they come in that look and feel nice.. this may not be what you personally want but some people out there appreciate that stuff. I do but I will not pay premium for it and why i only buy it on sale.


I don't think we will ever agree, and I am ok with it. I am not a rapha fanboy. I have some of their stuff but also have a stuff from other companies. It just blows my mind that here on paceline there is just so much distaste for them, it feels like people rather them not exist. feels so personal.

They have a good product and their marketing feeds on tradition they don´t own for fashion´s sake. I like the product and don´t care for the marketing. That´s all.

[simonov]

They have a good product and their marketing feeds on tradition they don´t own for fashion´s sake. I like the product and don´t care for the marketing. That´s all.

Nobody owns the tradition. I much prefer their appeal to black and white photography and the idea of "epic'ness" than some of the horse **** that's taking over cycling style.

https://www.godandfamo.us/shop/idiocracy

https://attaquercycling.com/collections/limited/products/stickers-s13?variant=8305525424231

[Andy340]

Relitively new to Rapha - at a prior sale I got a pair of bibs 50% off which converted me as they were so good compared to what I had used previously.

Stockpiled a lot of Rapha stuff (primarily on sale) since and the majority has been great and well worth the price I paid. Anything I didn’t like I could send back.

Previously, I was happy to spend on nicer bikes / parts but (relatively) skimp on clothing. IMO the clothing makes a bigger difference, especially for me in North East where winter is pretty long and cold and summers can be very clammy.

I hope Rapha keep churning out good gear, if that means less focus on holidays etc then that would not be an issue for me.

[adub]

i grabbed a couple of items on sale at the pop-up shop in boston during their final week. I can definitely tell it's nicer quality gear, but not worth the price. I would only pay full sticker price if the gear was made in a developed country with labor laws, quality control, etc.

lol!!

[CunegoFan]

But I wasn't the exception. Most of the people I rode with wore understated jerseys too. If you believe Rapha's account, you couldn't find a jersey that wasn't garish and hideous before they came along.

"So, the quality was bad but it was also pretty horrible to look at. You compromise on performance and quality all at the same time. Back in 2000 or 2001, cycling kit was polyester. It still largely is. But it’s just really cheap polyester. You couldn’t buy a jersey for more than 40 pounds, 60 bucks. That’s what the industry said people would pay, and yet I would regularly go buy a pair of jeans for 200 bucks."

http://www.velonews.com/2014/07/news/excess-agony-pantani-interview-rapha-founder_334957

The birth of Rapha: Conspicuous consumer complains he could not find cycling clothing expensive enough to impress the Joneses.

[dbnm]

9000 views and 166 comments.

Love it!

[fourspin]

Cyclocross Kit has dropped in stores....nothing on line yet.

[many_styles]

Welcome to a diversified supply chain making product out of textiles with varying degrees of stretch. Nightmarish!



PA location will be good for them, if they can do it right.


Looking foreword to the PA location opening up. I’ve always had to travel up to SF for events and physically try items on.

[m4rk540]

The birth of Rapha: Conspicuous consumer complains he could not find cycling clothing expensive enough to impress the Joneses.

$200 jeans are a $60 jersey.

[charliedid]

The birth of Rapha: Conspicuous consumer complains he could not find cycling clothing expensive enough to impress the Joneses.

Ooooo burn! Ugh, not even close but keep trying to convince yourself of that.

It's clothing for the biking, don't overthink it.

[colker]

Ooooo burn! Ugh, not even close but keep trying to convince yourself of that.

It's clothing for the biking, don't overthink it.

It´s image as well.. Rapha is a lot about image in a way no other cycling company did before.

[charliedid]

It´s image as well.. Rapha is a lot about image in a way no other cycling company did before.

Everything is about the image....it's impossible not to be.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by dynnendischord View Post
i grabbed a couple of items on sale at the pop-up shop in boston during their final week. I can definitely tell it's nicer quality gear, but not worth the price. I would only pay full sticker price if the gear was made in a developed country with labor laws, quality control, etc.

Ya mean like Bulgaria and some other countries in Europe?..yes, I know it's a shot at China but my wife, creative director for CaseLogic went to China..viewed the factory owned by Case Logic and no children working..young, very happy and well taken care of, work force..Most from the 'country' and living better than they or their relatives ever had..This whole idea of 8 year olds, being yelled at and beaten as they glue soles onto running shoes..isn't 'quite' accurate.

BTW-"Quality Control" isn't a government project, BTW, but up to the person(s) who's name is on the product..Shoddy, not examined workmanship everywhere...even in factories in the US..

'Developed country'...:eek:

[R3awak3n]

Ya mean like Bulgaria and some other countries in Europe?..yes, I know it's a shot at China but my wife, creative director for CaseLogic went to China..viewed the factory owned by Case Logic and no children working..young, very happy and well taken care of, work force..Most from the 'country' and living better than they or their relatives ever had..This whole idea of 8 year olds, being yelled at and beaten as they glue soles onto running shoes..isn't 'quite' accurate.

BTW-"Quality Control" isn't a government project, BTW, but up to the person(s) who's name is on the product..Shoddy, not examined workmanship everywhere...even in factories in the US..

'Developed country'...:eek:

no doubt there are factories in china that have no problems but some do. Who knows what the raphas factories are like... but you are right, everyone thinks like factories in china are slave labor camps.

also there are quite a few rapha things made in europe, Portugal for example. That said a lot is now made in china but the quality is still very good.
I wonder if rapha had a made in US line and it cost more, if people would be all over it or would complain even more.

[oldpotatoe]

no doubt there are factories in china that have no problems but some do. Who knows what the raphas factories are like... but you are right, everyone thinks like factories in china are slave labor camps.

also there are quite a few rapha things made in europe, Portugal for example. That said a lot is now made in china but the quality is still very good.

Some in the US do too..BUT

As you will see, the most horrific and widespread child labor practices today are seen in Africa and Southern and Western Asia.
Nigeria. ...
Burundi. ...
Yemen. ...
Zimbabwe. ...
Pakistan. ...
Afghanistan. ...
Sudan. ...
Myanmar.

[dbnm]

I did not see this thread going down this route.

But for those who won't or don't look at the Rapha site, this is at the bottom of every page.

https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/modern-slavery-statement


RAPHA’S SUPPLY CHAIN
Rapha works with more than 25 suppliers globally, including in China, Vietnam, Lithuania, Portugal, Italy and the UK. The company insists its suppliers share its fundamental ethics and values and works closely with them to ensure high levels of working standards. Rapha has shared a working relationship with many suppliers since the formation of the company. Wherever possible, it encourages face to face communication between the product team and suppliers at all levels of seniority.

Rapha arranges frequent visits to supplier factories in order to assess the conditions of the facilities on an on-going basis, and to carry out regular checks and audits. New suppliers or factories are subject to a general assessment which includes health & safety checks, cleanliness, broken needle policies, timekeeping procedures and social facilities. Rapha is also contacting suppliers directly to request specific information related to modern slavery, including details of their REACH Compliance Declaration.

Due to the high standards of workmanship and the reputation of the suppliers Rapha works with, the brand’s suppliers typically provide good working conditions for their employees. To ensure these high standards are being maintained, Rapha provides support and guidance to enable suppliers to make continuous improvements where necessary.

[bicycletricycle]

+1

I just designed a product that is being made in the US. The first run was made in China for logistics reasons at a nice factory with well paid motivated people. I have been to this companies facilities in Taiwan and in China and they are a great place to work that pay good wages for the areas they are located in. The domestic factory is probably a worse facility and it certainly has less compitent/motivated people while still managing to be 4x more to use. They have managed to run the same tooling incorrectly and make a few runs of totally unsalable product while simultaneously trying to blame anyone possible for the problems. They really seem more interested in finding blame than fixing the problems. Looks like the whole project is going to be a flop because of these issues which is a shame because the whole point of the project was to create work for the domestic production channel this company already owned.

Anecdotal I know but first world production isn’t always great/possible and Chinese production isn’t always enslaved children sniffing glue.



Ya mean like Bulgaria and some other countries in Europe?..yes, I know it's a shot at China but my wife, creative director for CaseLogic went to China..viewed the factory owned by Case Logic and no children working..young, very happy and well taken care of, work force..Most from the 'country' and living better than they or their relatives ever had..This whole idea of 8 year olds, being yelled at and beaten as they glue soles onto running shoes..isn't 'quite' accurate.

BTW-"Quality Control" isn't a government project, BTW, but up to the person(s) who's name is on the product..Shoddy, not examined workmanship everywhere...even in factories in the US..

'Developed country'...:eek:

[Big Dan]

Rapha invented the color black.

[AngryScientist]

Anecdotal I know but first world production isn’t always great/possible and Chinese production isn’t always enslaved children sniffing glue.

for sure. i've never been myself, but have specified numerous large orders that were fulfilled by China based factories. talking about engineered steel items on the ROM of $60M USD.

anytime i make an order that big i figure a full time QA guy into the budget and park his butt over there in the factory, so i get daily/weekly reports of progress, QC reports and general assessment.

the good factories have good reputations, wind up on qualified bidders lists and generally do things the right way, produce a quality product, and treat employees like people should be treated.

.

[Climb01742]

+1

I just designed a product that is being made in the US. The first run was made in China for logistics reasons at a nice factory with well paid motivated people. I have been to this companies facilities in Taiwan and in China and they are a great place to work that pay good wages for the areas they are located in. The domestic factory is probably a worse facility and it certainly has less compitent/motivated people while still managing to be 4x more to use. They have managed to run the same tooling incorrectly and make a few runs of totally unsalable product while simultaneously trying to blame anyone possible for the problems. They really seem more interested in finding blame than fixing the problems. Looks like the whole project is going to be a flop because of these issues which is a shame because the whole point of the project was to create work for the domestic production channel this company already owned.

Anecdotal I know but first world production isn’t always great/possible and Chinese production isn’t always enslaved children sniffing glue.

I don't mean to derail the thread but this intrigues me. Do you have any idea why the domestic factory performs as it does? I'm not asking as an opening to bash anyone or get political. I'm honestly curious. Is it management style? Is it worker disinterest or training? Is it that one factory's unique issues or more widespread? Reviving US manufacturing is a worthwhile but challenging goal. Curious what your first-hand thoughts are. Thanks.

[colker]

Everything is about the image....it's impossible not to be.

MOst of cycling stuff is about performance. Even cycling clothes. Assos is responsible for a giant leap in aerodynamic clothing.. they are part of time trial history.. and yet they don´t sell tradition as Rapha does.
Rapha has a good product but mostly sells attitude.. something only fashion could do before. Rapha is heavily into cycling tradition but they don´t have any and won´t have since they already sold the business. They are a marketing strategy company not a cycling performance company. Pinarello, Campagnolo, Cannondale, Trek.. they sell performance and technology. Rapha sells attitude.
It´s not only cycling clothes but the first time marketing is as sophisticated as technology in cycling business.

[charliedid]

Yeah clothing companies selling tradition is all marketing no matter how long you have been in business. Tell me about all the tradition that Assos has in its first ten years in business. Most cycling gear and apparel has little if anything to do with performance. Performance is right up there with tradition when it comes to marketing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charliedid]

Rapha invented the color black.



Whoa I thought they were just the first to think of it for cycling clothing! The more you know!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bicycletricycle]

I don't mean to derail the thread but this intrigues me. Do you have any idea why the domestic factory performs as it does? I'm not asking as an opening to bash anyone or get political. I'm honestly curious. Is it management style? Is it worker disinterest or training? Is it that one factory's unique issues or more widespread? Reviving US manufacturing is a worthwhile but challenging goal. Curious what your first-hand thoughts are. Thanks.

It is an interesting question. Certainly there are very many great US based factories (I was in a medical implant factory a while ago that was running like a sewing machine). This particular factory is making low cost items that directly compete with easily sourced Chinese goods. They exploit the difference is shipping costs on bigger items to sudsidize the extra production cost.

The people/culture at the factory are the problem. The higher costs and reduced flexibility of US production make the whole culture extremely risk averse. Comfortable people with labor contracts don’t want to take risks so they front load all kinds of CYA steps into the process so that if anything goes wrong there is a piece of paper proving it is someone else’s fault. Everyone is always more concerned with risk than they are with profit. This atmosphere expands the costs even further and in many industries moves the timeline too far out, time is in fact money.

Many hard to change factors seem to automatically build incentive structures that produce these types of cultures at big developed world factories. Unions/high labor costs, regulations, thin profit margins and high capitol expenditures seem to directly contribute to this risk averse lethargic production culture. I don’t know if it is possible to overcome these issues. I don’t know if we even want to.

The medical implant company has overcome them because the profit margins available in that industry seem suppress the effects of the increased costs of labor/tooling/regulation, etc. These types of goods seem much better suited to our economy. To justify high production costs we must be add a lot of value to the end user, this dynamic tends to yield expensive goods. Trying to make low price commodities or anything that has a lot of labor (sewn goods especially) will never come back and the reality is we don’t really want those jobs IMHO.

[colker]

Yeah clothing companies selling tradition is all marketing no matter how long you have been in business. Tell me about all the tradition that Assos has in its first ten years in business. Most cycling gear and apparel has little if anything to do with performance. Performance is right up there with tradition when it comes to marketing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"At the Munich Olympic Velodrome in 1978, lateral thinking Swiss engineer, Tony Maier-Moussa, unveiled his latest creation: Daniel Gisiger of Switzerland riding in the first anatomical skinsuit. Whilst Gisiger's results didn't garner much attention, his one-piece suit certainly did, and the first Assos skinsuit was born."

https://www.condorcycles.com/blogs/journal/53701633-design-icons-the-assos-skinsuit

Assos is about technology and performance. Rapha is about technology too but marketing and attitude is the game play ...
Assos is swiss. Rapha is brittish. Brits have a tradition of selling attitude and image.

[colker]

Yeah clothing companies selling tradition is all marketing no matter how long you have been in business. Tell me about all the tradition that Assos has in its first ten years in business. Most cycling gear and apparel has little if anything to do with performance. Performance is right up there with tradition when it comes to marketing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Everything sold as cycling apparel is about performance and technology. Lycra, jersey, chamois, shoes, helmet, sunglasses.. every aesthethic detail is justified by it´s performance aspect: to make you comfortable while pedalling hard.
Then Rapha comes selling cycling as attitude, aesthethics, exclusivity as in Rapha clubs. It´s a free world... why not? but if you sell attitude you border ridicule, imo.

[justinrchan]

Didn’t Rapha sponsor Team Sky for a few seasons? I assume they did okay but not sure why they split. I know they also sponsored a CX team too. So I think they know something about performance wear. But I agree that their MO is attitude and style.

[Heisenberg]

The medical implant company has overcome them because the profit margins available in that industry seem suppress the effects of the increased costs of labor/tooling/regulation, etc. These types of goods seem much better suited to our economy. To justify high production costs we must be add a lot of value to the end user, this dynamic tends to yield expensive goods. Trying to make low price commodities or anything that has a lot of labor (sewn goods especially) will never come back and the reality is we don’t really want those jobs IMHO.

Not to derail, but this is an interesting insight - we're willing to put up with extremely inflated costs for things that save our lives (or don't, if we're poor), but not for a plastic t-shirt with a zipper up the middle and three pockets out back.

Something is broken. Late capitalism, yo.

I'll hold off on cutting the organized labor snark.

Didn’t Rapha sponsor Team Sky for a few seasons? I assume they did okay but not sure why they split. I know they also sponsored a CX team too. So I think they know something about performance wear. But I agree that their MO is attitude and style.

Rumors about a team in pink, these days.

[charliedid]

Everything sold as cycling apparel is about performance and technology. Lycra, jersey, chamois, shoes, helmet, sunglasses.. every aesthethic detail is justified by it´s performance aspect: to make you comfortable while pedalling hard.

Then Rapha comes selling cycling as attitude, aesthethics, exclusivity as in Rapha clubs. It´s a free world... why not? but if you sell attitude you border ridicule, imo.



I know where you are coming from. But saying Rapha just sells attitude is silly. Also, criticizing them for not being Assos is like blaming a cheeseburger for not being a chicken sandwich.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clean39T]

I know where you are coming from. But saying Rapha just sells attitude is silly. Also, criticizing them for not being Assos is like blaming a cheeseburger for not being a chicken sandwich.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBest commercial ever:

https://youtu.be/gm_n76Dsl0c

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[sfo1]

Rapha invented the color black.

I thought it was Bill Brasky?

[GregL]

Best commercial ever:

https://youtu.be/gm_n76Dsl0c

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I respectfully disagree. This is the best commercial ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdFKcETEPg

Greg

[charliedid]

Best commercial ever:

https://youtu.be/gm_n76Dsl0c

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

LOL funny as ....

[charliedid]

I was always partial to this one - https://youtu.be/db1Au4Qymwo

It's even funnier if you know the whole series they did - https://youtu.be/-ibYnYoJ1jA

[charliedid]

I respectfully disagree. This is the best commercial ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdFKcETEPg

Greg

Excellent

[bicycletricycle]

That leaked financial info showed roughly 50% of Rapha’s budget going to the supply chain so it’s not like they are making boat loads of cash from an extravagant mark up. If they made the same clothes here the cost would go up dramatically. Everyone already complains about their pricing.

Willingness to pay more for a medical implant doesn’t seem like much of an insight. Besides, only insurance companies know what the cost of medical implants are. If we had to pay for them out of pocket they would also be made in China.

I didn’t mean anything positive or negative about unions. Just that they make production costs higher.

Not to derail, but this is an interesting insight - we're willing to put up with extremely inflated costs for things that save our lives (or don't, if we're poor), but not for a plastic t-shirt with a zipper up the middle and three pockets out back.

Something is broken. Late capitalism, yo.

I'll hold off on cutting the organized labor snark.



Rumors about a team in pink, these days.

[fiamme red]

"At the Munich Olympic Velodrome in 1978, lateral thinking Swiss engineer, Tony Maier-Moussa, unveiled his latest creation: Daniel Gisiger of Switzerland riding in the first anatomical skinsuit. Whilst Gisiger's results didn't garner much attention, his one-piece suit certainly did, and the first Assos skinsuit was born."

https://www.condorcycles.com/blogs/journal/53701633-design-icons-the-assos-skinsuit

Assos is about technology and performance. Rapha is about technology too but marketing and attitude is the game play ...
Assos is swiss. Rapha is brittish. Brits have a tradition of selling attitude and image.Besides their clothing, Assos also started as a designer of aerodynamic, lightweight components: rims, saddles, cranks, pedals, etc.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Switzerland/Assos_main.htm

http://velobase.com/ViewBrand.aspx?BrandID=bab2352a-e8df-4a33-a67a-839310dd66fe

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/81/assos-factory-visit

Assos’s early innovations included rims, chainsets, pedals, bottom bracket, hubs, saddles and a belt attaching a rider to the stem for more climbing power. Despite failing to establish themselves as long-term saleable products, several of Maier’s inventions were successes. Assos’s impressively light, aerodynamically curved, anodised aluminium rims were ahead of their time, and met with significant acclaim: ‘Fignon and Hinault were riding on my rims, re-badged. My biggest problem was that I didn’t have the money to pay them.’

So Assos continued with innovation in clothing, and ideas such as the 1995 line of kit that was the first to be made available in a full range of colours would cement the company’s place at the top of the industry. While things have changed a little from the early days when Assos clothing first made riders looks like aliens, it is certainly a brand with an enduring peculiarity. But as Cyclist learns during our visit, it’s that unusual approach that has made Assos such a prominent name.

[choke]

Best commercial ever:

https://youtu.be/gm_n76Dsl0c

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I respectfully disagree. This is the best commercial ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdFKcETEPg

GregSorry gents, this is the best ever...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVS1UfCfxlU

[fourspin]

You weren't kidding about the green! Enough to outfit an army!

Look for new products tomorrow, including lots of dark green items.

[Grant McLean]

Besides their clothing, Assos also started as a designer of aerodynamic, lightweight components: rims, saddles, cranks, pedals, etc.

And superhero costumes too!

https://www.assos.com/Webstore%20Images/t-cento_Black%20Volkanga-1-M.jpg?resizeid=7&resizeh=3000&resizew=2400

[dbnm]

Apparently, Rapha is closing the Sydney shop and did not tell anyone.

[Grant McLean]

Rapha is closing the Sydney shop

That's not really surprising. The majority of Rapha sales in all countries is from on-line orders.
(something like 80-85% is what i read).

I don't know how they fill the orders or restock just 1 or 2 stores on a continent.
It makes much more sense from a logistics perspective to just deal directly with
the consumers shipping either from Asia or a distribution center in Europe.

If Rapha opens in Canada, they'll fill stock from the USA warehouse, otherwise
there would be no way to have a sustainable business plan in a country this size.
Currently, customer orders fly from the UK. There is no way to service small
markets will domestic infrastructure required for 1 store.

-g

[charliedid]

Apparently, Rapha is closing the Sydney shop and did not tell anyone.

Somebody was told, otherwise how would you know? ;-) Are you saying the employees of the shop were completely blindsided one day and told they were out of a job....and good luck?

FWIW I heard about this sometime in the past couple week, maybe even posted in this thread or another.

:)

[Clean39T]

FWIW - I received excellent customer service from a CS rep named Bennet at Rapha.com today.. :hello:

[cgolvin]

FWIW - I received excellent customer service from a CS rep named Bennet at Rapha.com today.. :hello:

I've ridden with Bennet, super nice guy.

[m4rk540]

Today, I wore a pro team aero jersey from a few seasons back. Fits great. I wore it over shorts and not bibs. My hope was that the great fit and style would distract from the fact that I was wearing 10 year old Mavic shorts which had lost their elasticity at the hem.

[dbnm]

The latest rumor going round is that in addition to closing the Sydney shop, they are going to close Boulder, Seattle, and Chicago.

Really sucks.

[cgolvin]

I think this is the source (or at least one source):
https://medium.com/@amandakgordon/rapha-all-downhill-from-here-b335d7589d52

[Ozz]

Bummer....went to the Seattle store for the first time last Friday. Seemed nice, if not a little light on inventory. Very helpful employees.

[93KgBike]

I find it funny that you hail from "Down South". I cannot argue with someone who is so familiar with the region of discussion.

:banana::banana:

Searching for something else, just saw this. So that would make Australians experts as well? Say it taint so.:rolleyes:

[rallizes]

The latest rumor going round is that in addition to closing the Sydney shop, they are going to close Boulder, Seattle, and Chicago.

Really sucks.

Do you have a link?

[NewDFWrider]

Do you have a link?

It's from this article, which someone posted earlier. https://medium.com/@amandakgordon/rapha-all-downhill-from-here-b335d7589d52

[rallizes]

It's from this article, which someone posted earlier. https://medium.com/@amandakgordon/rapha-all-downhill-from-here-b335d7589d52

I skimmed but did not see mention of boulder

I’ve been wrong before tho

[NewDFWrider]

ah...I didn't know you were referring to Boulder. The article refers to chicago and seattle and spitalfields.

[Lovetoclimb]

Just found out the repair service is now done in the UK. So the shipping can’t be handled with an old unused return label and it will cost you a fair bit more out of pocket.

[CunegoFan]

The latest rumor going round is that in addition to closing the Sydney shop, they are going to close Boulder, Seattle, and Chicago.

Really sucks.

Wow. If a brand based on images of unshaven tatted up millennials pretending to be hardmen cannot make it in Seattle then the brand really is in trouble.

[rallizes]

Wow. If a brand based on images of unshaven tatted up millennials pretending to be hardmen cannot make it in Seattle then the brand really is in trouble.

You need new material

[adub]

wow. If a brand based on images of unshaven tatted up millennials pretending to be hardmen cannot make it in seattle then the brand really is in trouble.

lol!

[fourspin]

I'll be at the Boulder store this weekend and will see if I can get any sense of what's going on there.

I skimmed but did not see mention of boulder

I’ve been wrong before tho

[Kirk007]

Wow. If a brand based on images of unshaven tatted up millennials pretending to be hardmen cannot make it in Seattle then the brand really is in trouble.

Your confusing Seattle with someplace else - Portlandia set perhaps?

[oldpotatoe]

I'll be at the Boulder store this weekend and will see if I can get any sense of what's going on there.

I know the general manager..I'll ask him...
And no, all that **** is just a rumor. An article surfaced in Australia after it was announced the the Sydney store was closing, and it was all doom and gloom, and filled with with things that just weren't true.

We are doing our thing here in Boulder, and it is going well overall. Company is changing for sure, but is just part of the evolution of the brand.

[fourspin]

Thanks, Ol' Tater....

50% off coupon from the manager for our pain and suffering? Daddy needs some new cross kit :)




I know the general manager..I'll ask him...