floyd a victim ?

[Fixed]

do any of the bros feel he was just pawn in the game ?
or he just cheated ?

[nobrakes]

Floyd's plight is being used to sell newspapers. Whatever the cause of the T/E imbalance, Floyd is being used by L'Equipe to sell it's rag.

[Marcusaurelius]

do any of the bros feel he was just pawn in the game ?
or he just cheated ?

Well I still believe he is innocent until proven guilty and even then I still refuse to cast any stones at him.

[chrisroph]

Leaking the A sample result was a little dirty and I doubt he had anything to do with it. Unfortunately, one of the greatest rides in tour history is tainted. He's got a long, tough, expensive road ahead of him, whether or not he intentionally administered T. Sure he's a pawn and being used by WADA, Pound, the UCI, the media, the forum, etc.

[Big Dan]

I think he rang the bell on stage 17, people noticed......
Now he's just a passenger....... :p

[Hysbrian]

For sure. There was an article a few months back in Outside Magazine about all the rich guys that run USA cycling. We're all pawns at some point though, very few people are truly in control, so I might as well be a pawn in something that I love doing right?

[e-RICHIE]

pawns redux (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=239319&postcount=1) atmo.

[andy mac]

he certainly worked very hard to be a pawn.


:rolleyes:

[Avispa]

Well I still believe he is innocent until proven guilty and even then I still refuse to cast any stones at him.

I don't understand why some of us continue to subscribe to this "innocent until proven guilty..." theory. In this case, Floyd has been proven guilty already on the first positive test!!!

Now he and his lawyers, not the testing lab, not the UCI has to prove that he didn't dope. The athletes have the burden of proof. He is actually guilty until he can prove his innocence!

Those are the rules of sport, not the rules of civil/criminal courts.

[nobrakes]

Floyd is being exploited. His positve should have never been released to the media until the B sample has been tested to verify the A result. We are unfairly judging Floyd when all the evidence hasn't been presented. IMHO it isn't fair to judge someone's credability based on leaked information. The leaked A sample results were released to L'Equipe by the French lab doing the tests, which is clearly a UCI confidentiality violation. As of yet, nobody is being held responsible for releasing it. It's all about selling papers. This has happened the last 8 years, at the conclusion of the Tour, to cast doubt on the winner. Doping or not, it's sensationalism, meant purely to increase sales and badmouth the winners. It's L'Equipe tradition.

[BdaGhisallo]

From what I have heard, after much discussion, both the UCI and Floyd together decided to release the news of the A positive. They were worried that the Paris lab would leak the news and wanted to get out ahead of it and announce it "properly". Kinda shines a big spotlight on the process and its supposed confidentiality when you can trust the actors in the process. WADA or whoever has the power to do so, should demand that there be a personnel clearout at the lab before they can again do WADA work going forward. If they can't get this, use another lab that can be trusted.

[OldDog]

We are talking France here. They have few riders who are worth their weight in Lycra. I'd like to see all the pros boycott the tour and support the Giro and Tour of CA. Let the French cycling media machine go broke and bankrupt.

That will never happen, but it was a pleasent thought.

[geezohwiz]

WADA or whoever has the power to do so, should demand that there be a personnel clearout at the lab before they can again do WADA work going forward. If they can't get this, use another lab that can be trusted.

You want to trust WADA to fairly adminster drug testing? That lab is every bit as much a part of WADA as is Diick Pound, who used to be a high ranking official at UCI. The lab does exactly what WADA wants it to do...it finds positive results from rider's samples, regardless of the circumstances. WADA doesn't care about justice, they care about positive test results. That's their "raison d'être." So what if they defy every accepted method for properly handling specimens and determining what constitutes a banned substance. Any other reputable lab wouldn't do the work for them given the shoddy way in which they run their organization.

Why doesn't WADA test for things that it can clearly identify as "unnatural?" Why does it test for results that may or may not indicate the presence of other banned substances. A high testosterone level in and of itself is not proof of doping. The existence of an unnatural testosterone substance is. If you can't identifty the unnatural substance, then you shouldn't be allowed to aribitrarily decided what is an unnatural level (and the UCI leak of the "synthetic testosterone" from the isotope test again goes against common medical information,which states the test is unreliable). Furthermore, it's generally accpeted medical opinion that testosterone does not work immediately, but must be administered over time and combined with rigorous training to be effective. How many times before Stage 17 was Landis tested? At least 4, as the yellow jersey wearer. There have been no reports of prior or subsequent positive tests, and he wore the yellow jersey (and was tested) several times after Stage 17. It's all about WADA trying to remain relevant on the international sporting stage.

[Fixed]

nice point bro

[BdaGhisallo]

Hey Geezo,

I get you there bud. No indications of doping -> no government funding -> a lot of bureaucrats lose a lot of nice cushy jobs. I get it.

I think the whole process is rotten to the core. Sure pro cycling is dirty with all the dope taking, but the whole process, infrastructure and mechanism to stop it and punish those who dope is even worse in my eyes. Far far worse! They want to set themselves up as a representative of sporting law of sorts. How can that be done when the authorities disabey and ignore their own bleeding rules and guidelines in their zeal to catch cheats. There is no protection for the athletes, the victims and the concept of due process is something that hasn't dawned on all the lawyers at WADA!!

All of this crap emanates from the IOC and their governance / blessing of all world sport via their role as gatekeepers to the Olympic games. National governments blindly accept IOC jurisdiction over any and all sport and every federation has to fall in line behind them lest they lose the blessing of those governments and all the help and funding that derives from that.

If only the UCI could be like FIFA and not give a toss about the IOC. Then again, FIFA is more powerful than the IOC in my eyes. The Beautiful Game has no need for the Olympics and the IOC's impramatur. The UCI feels they do.

Oh... I wish I had a magic wand.

[rpm]

All of this crap emanates from the IOC and their governance / blessing of all world sport via their role as gatekeepers to the Olympic games.

Everything went south after pros started competing the Olympics. That's when all the old tacit understandings about how riders sustain themselves throughout the season were replaced with a "zero tolerance" ideal. And with that came all the hypocrisy and media scrutiny.

[Needs Help]

Furthermore, it's generally accpeted medical opinion that testosterone does not work immediately, but must be administered over time and combined with rigorous training to be effective.
You were doing ok until that. If you think that is proof that Landis wouldn't use a testosterone patch, then you are sadly mistaken. In my opinion, it is statements like that coming from Landis and his doctor that implicate them both as liars. That may be the medical evidence, but that is not the reality of what happpens in the pro peleton.

[geezohwiz]

You were doing ok until that. If you think that is proof that Landis wouldn't use a testosterone patch, then you are sadly mistaken. In my opinion, it is statements like that coming from Landis and his doctor that implicate them both as liars. That may be the medical evidence, but that is not the reality of what happpens in the pro peleton.


My point was not that Landis didn't (or did) use the patch, my point is: Where are the other positive test results from preceding and subsequent stages? If there's no immediate benefit and he were using the testosterone to maximum advantage, where are the additional positive test results? Admittedly, I don't know how long the elevated testosterone would exist in his system from a one-time application, but it strikes me as odd that he wouldn't have tested positive at some other point in the Tour.

Edited: Just found this at "freefloylandis.blogspot.com":

"They had probably tested him a dozen times over the course of the race to that point, so the last one comes up positive?" Markum says. "I smell a rat."

Markum, a two-time Olympian who raced against Greg LeMond in his prime and Armstrong in his infancy, smells a French rat, to be specific.

"The French have been so anti-American since Lance's second or third Tour win, they've tried to tear him down for so long now," Markum says, referring largely to the newspaper L'Equipe. "It's just a witch hunt at this point. They're tearing their own sport apart."

A World Anti-Doping Agency doctor agreed Thursday something seems amiss, telling an Associated Press medical writer, "Something's missing here. It just doesn't add up." If Landis had been cheating all along, then why wasn't there a positive test earlier in the race? The idea that he could load up effectively between his 16th stage death ride and his 17th stage super-heroics is bunk, the doctor said.

[Big Dan]

:rolleyes:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10643.0.html

[Larry]

Any doctors out there?
I thought testosterone took longer to build-up into the athlete's body.
Does anyone know what all of the other tests during the tour showed?
Yes....this was a testosterone spike!!!! It's all suspicious....from every angle.

And.....I just do not trust the testing agency. Lance has made this clear.
Oh no.....another American kicked butt in the TDF !! What to do??

Floyd is a victim......no doubt.

[Tom]

or tri-color ones either, but what about the tests after the fateful 17th stage? Was Landis tested after getting top two or three in the time trial and how about after he appeared to win the whole thing? If there were later tests, shouldn't they be out of whack?

This is a question grounded in nothing but curiosity. At this stage, I couldn't care less about pro cycling at the top end. It's another world. Extraterrestrial, so to speak. I can't relate. I'd much rather go to a local race.

[atmo]

:rolleyes:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10643.0.html


this guy is an idiot, and atmo so is anyone
who still clings to stuff like he writes here:
But the next day I watched you collapse and fall more than 10 minutes behind the leaders.
landis lost 10 minutes to non gc guy m rasmussen.
to his gc rivals, on that stage and in gc too, he lost
far less. man - the hollywood-ness of it all atmo.
source, if needed. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//tour06/?id=results/tour0616)

[Onno]

I've been as depressed by the Landis affair as most folks, but I'm surprised at the zeal and haste of those who look for a conspiracy. If's he's innocent, then he's a victim not of malicious intent but of errors in a legitimate if far from perfect system to combat the real problem of doping. If he's guilty, then, as has been said many times before, his guilt is like that of numerous other riders, doctors, teams, etc. Still, if he's guilty, he also shares in the guilt. He made the choices, and we know it's possible to turn down the opportunity to dope, even if that also means turning down the possibility of winning, or even of riding the Tour. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

[Larry]

1. I find it difficult to believe that Floyd would dope, unless he was really so drunk the night before Stage 17, and would try anything to win out of desperation.

2. Darn....surely someone knew if he was taking testosterone and saw this
event.

3. Wouldn't the team trainers know a banned substance was in their camp?

4. Why would Floyd risk his career by doping in the most recognized bike race in the world?

5. Floyd had a perfect testing record all along. Why would he dope in the TDF?

All of this trash will not ruin our sport. But to me it is certain that I will watch very little of the TDF next year. The Pro Tour has no appeal.
It is a battle with doping agencies and a pharmaceutical mess. The glorious meaning of competition at this level is gone.

[Onno]

this guy is an idiot, and atmo so is anyone
who still clings to stuff like he writes here:
But the next day I watched you collapse and fall more than 10 minutes behind the leaders.
landis lost 10 minutes to non gc guy m rasmussen.
to his gc rivals, on that stage and in gc too, he lost
far less.

He lost 8 minutes to the g.c. leaders, which is not really far less. Watching it live, I too thought it was a spectacular and wholly unexpected collapse. Sure he didn't stop altogether, but he was going very slowly while the leaders were going very quickly. The collapse became more spectacular in hindsight, in a sense, because he was the eventual winner.

[atmo]

He lost 8 minutes to the g.c. leaders, which is not really far less. Watching it live, I too thought it was a spectacular and wholly unexpected collapse. Sure he didn't stop altogether, but he was going very slowly while the leaders were going very quickly. The collapse became more spectacular in hindsight, in a sense, because he was the eventual winner.
he was 8 behind periero, 5-6 behind sastre,
and 5 behind evans. these are all surmountable
deficits even without knowing what happened
at morzine. heck, periero made up 30 minutes
earlier in the week. all i am saying is that the
ride at the 16th stage wasn't the death knell
that i read about in the press atmo.

[Serpico]

1. I find it difficult to believe that Floyd would dope, unless he was really so drunk the night before Stage 17, and would try anything to win out of desperation.

2. Darn....surely someone knew if he was taking testosterone and saw this
event.

3. Wouldn't the team trainers know a banned substance was in their camp?

4. Why would Floyd risk his career by doping in the most recognized bike race in the world?

5. Floyd had a perfect testing record all along. Why would he dope in the TDF?

All of this trash will not ruin our sport. But to me it is certain that I will watch very little of the TDF next year. The Pro Tour has no appeal.
It is a battle with doping agencies and a pharmaceutical mess. The glorious meaning of competition at this level is gone.


dude, this is at least the second post of yours that I thought was tongue in cheek--but apparently you're serious

:rolleyes:

[Big Dan]

Always wonder why so many people fall for ebay scams..... :confused:

[Fixed]

sat a.m. we will have a new .....winner ?
or one they didn't test enough ?

cheers

[OldDog]

my prior kidding and sarcasim aside, i truly hope my bro from PA is cleared and can go on to enjoy his victory, and future victories.

Don't Mess With Pennsylvania!

[Needs Help]

There was an article a few months back in Outside Magazine about all the rich guys that run USA cycling.
http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html

[Larry]

sat a.m. we will have a new .....winner ?
or one they didn't test enough ?

cheers
Yes, a new winner.......and he most likely would rather not be involved in such a mess.

On his behalf.......Floyd is in for a great fight.
......kind of like Ali/Bonavena from1970. It was on "VS." channel last night.

[Elefantino]

On his behalf.......Floyd is in for a great fight.
......kind of like Ali/Bonavena from 1970.

Is Floyd The Greatest or The Washerwoman?

[scrafton]

not sure what his angle is yet, but somehow it involves making the dems look bad. . .more to come.



:D

[Larry]

Is Floyd The Greatest or The Washerwoman?

We will know around 5:00 a.m. EST.