Tom Palermo-custom frame builder RIP [Archive] - Page 2

elcolombiano

01-02-2015, 12:39 AM

Something I do not understand. How can a person driving a motor vehicle cause a fatality, not stop to render aide and not be taken immediately to jail? Something is very wrong with the Baltimore Police Department.

How many more hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of pedestrians, cyclists and motorists will have to die in the future like a bugs hitting a windshield before the government of this country begins to educate motorists to drive motor vehicles responsibly. A motor vehicle can become a lethal weapon in many ways no different than a fire arm and should be treated with appropriate respect. People that cause property damage, injury and death as a result of DUI, distracted driving or intentionally should be considered guilty of serious criminal offenses and need to be punished severely. How many innocent people need to continue to die?

If I hit a rock driving my car. I would pull over in the first safe place to see if my car was damaged.
If I hit a bird while driving my car I would stop my car see if the bird is injured. If it was I would try to take the bird to a veterinarian and pay for the vet bill out of my pocket. I am sorry but this "Bishop" that hit a cyclist from behind with such force that his body became air borne, hit the windshield, smashed it and bounced to the ground and did not even stop to render aid has no place in our civilized society. I once was walking my dog, tripped and fell on a crack on the side walk. Even my dog came to my aide to see if I was ok. To say this "Bishop" acted as an animal is an insult to animals.

I grew up in Baltimore and spent many years in my youth cycling with the Baltimore Bicycling Club. I am familiar with the area where Mr. Palermo was murdered. It is a small world.

The problem in this country is that automobile driving is not taken very seriously. It is very easy to get a drivers license. If you are caught DUI, the laws are very slack. Not all countries in the world are like this. It is my understanding that in Germany obtaining a drivers license requires substantial training and the privilege of driving is taken very seriously. Driving distracted or drunk is simply not tolerated in that society. Drivers are taught to always give bicyclist right of way. In this country the bicycle is still seen as a toy that has no place on the street. It is not recognized as a valid form of transportation. Here in the USA this needs to change. Only if we all stand up as advocates and demand change will things improve.

abalone

01-02-2015, 01:59 AM

Something I do not understand. How can a person driving a motor vehicle cause a fatality, not stop to render aide and not be taken immediately to jail? Something is very wrong with the Baltimore Police Department.

The problem is that the lady hasn't even been charged yet with a crime despite Tom's family and friends demanding that homicide charges be filed. The longer this drags out the more worrisome this becomes. The Baltimore Police Dept may be waiting for the outrage to lessen and the funeral to be complete, out of respect for the family, before giving the public the bad news that she won't be charged. I really hope that isn't the case, but you'd think that if they were going to charge her with a crime it would have been done already.
.

ultraman6970

01-02-2015, 06:43 AM

" Originally Posted by elcolombiano View Post
Something I do not understand. How can a person driving a motor vehicle cause a fatality, not stop to render aide and not be taken immediately to jail? Something is very wrong with the Baltimore Police Department. "

Any church has its ways. Back centuries ago kings (or any super rich person) were forgiven all their sins if they were giving stuff to the church, that's why you have like zillions of humongous temples built all over the place 100 to 300 years old.

The other characteristic of any church (protestant or catholic) is that they don't give up their own easily because believe it or not, churches have a lot of power all over the place, not only in their own congregation. So probably somebody called somebody else, and that somebody else called another somebody else down the food chain, but high enough so and at the end she did not spend probably even 10 seconds in the police precinct like anybody else. Not even tell if she even got hand cuffed (sp) at some point, doubt even it happened.

Things will turn interesting because you aren't the only one thinking the same thing, I assure you. But since the modus operandi is always the same, this will end up under the carpet IMO. In a matter of fact I see the woman going to AA and to a rehab program for drugs for 6 to 8 months as punishment, case will go cold in the public opinion and done. Hope they fix palermo's family for life tho... is the least they can do.

Kevan

01-02-2015, 07:12 AM

Tom

01-02-2015, 07:17 AM

I'm kind of reluctant to post this, but I am anyway. A few years ago I was basically fouled off by a car in a manner frighteningly similar to this. The car one foot to the right or my left pedal at the bottom of the revolution and things would have been far different. Same deal: at speed on main road, super wide shoulder, probably chemically enhanced driver.

The driver ran. Her children told their father what had been done when they were returned to his custody 48 hours later. The local police pursued it. The officer I spoke to acted like he took it personally, how this person behaved. He basically bluffed her into confessing when she was interviewed.

That wasn't enough to establish proof of leaving the scene of a personal injury accident because I didn't go straight to the ER. They did, however, press for what leaving the scene violation they could get - property damage. Plus misdemeanor driving infraction for being uninsured.

Standard of proof and due process are real concepts. If the police rush it their case will get picked apart. Time will tell. It might be best that they don't act too quickly. They know they can't screw this one up, eyes are on it.

shovelhd

01-02-2015, 07:25 AM

Agreed. At this stage, the less we hear about it, the better.

OtayBW

01-02-2015, 08:23 AM

Something I do not understand. How can a person driving a motor vehicle cause a fatality, not stop to render aide and not be taken immediately to jail? Something is very wrong with the Baltimore Police Department. I am struggling to understand this as well.

The problem is that the lady hasn't even been charged yet with a crime despite Tom's family and friends demanding that homicide charges be filed. The longer this drags out the more worrisome this becomes.Agree.

I can't believe any prosecution side of justice will let this crime slide. No, I bet investigators are currently putting together the facts, conducting interviews, performing speed and damage testing on the car and road skids. They will be seeking phone records, closed circuit tv evidence from business and traffic cameras that might have witnessed her leaving and returning to the scene. The DA's team will be working with the police to determine what level of crime or crimes they will be filing against the bishop.

This takes time to perform. It takes time to put together a case that will withstand the blast brought by the defense.

All in good time.I understand and patiently await the correct outcome as well. However, this is not exactly history�s greatest unsolved mystery. How many phone relevant records, etc. can there be? Had this been some other kind of fatality, I have a hard time thinking that the suspect would not have been picked up and charged already.

Standard of proof and due process are real concepts. If the police rush it their case will get picked apart. Time will tell. It might be best that they don't act too quickly. They know they can't screw this one up, eyes are on it.So, I continue to wonder: just how long will it take for the Right Rev. Cook to be charged with SOMETHING, for crying out loud?

josephr

01-02-2015, 09:00 AM

here's the pic from the ghost bike dedication...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205512513961190&set=gm.814573635255370&type=1&theater

oldpotatoe

01-02-2015, 09:19 AM

I am struggling to understand this as well.

Agree.

I understand and patiently await the correct outcome as well. However, this is not exactly history’s greatest unsolved mystery. How many phone relevant records, etc. can there be? Had this been some other kind of fatality, I have a hard time thinking that the suspect would not have been picked up and charged already.

So, I continue to wonder: just how long will it take for the Right Rev. Cook to be charged with SOMETHING, for crying out loud?

Holidays and I suspect(hope) the DA and police are taking their time to do this right. Because the church has the $ to field a strong(read big bux attorney) to make sure her rights are followed(in other words, be her professional liar). I'll bet she pleads to something lesser, and the punishment will be lots but not jail time. Hopefully the family of Mr Palermo will seek Max $ from her and the church. For the church is clearly complicit.

avalonracing

01-02-2015, 09:26 AM

to make sure her rights are followed(in other words, be her professional liar).

Well put.

Climb01742

01-02-2015, 09:50 AM

I've never been a fan of organized religion. For me, true spirituality and faith are personal, small and largely unseen by others. Organized religions are, sadly, more about power, money and protecting their own.

If the facts of this tragic case are as they appear, there are two ways this could go. The truly 'Christian' way would be tell the unvarnished truth and seek to make amends for your actions, atone and accept the consequences. The organized Christ, Inc way would be to lawyer up, obfuscate, rationalize, back room and buy your way out.

What are the odds of each way being chosen?

I don't know exactly what makes the universe tick, but I am pretty sure of this. Whether there's a god, an intelligence, a spirit or some being with a hell of a software program, it knows what happened on that road. Karma will come due. No lawyer or check is changing that. Why clothe yourself in religion and not at the moment it matters most, do the right thing? You ain't skating come the real score keeper.

Trying to skate makes what happened on that road even sadder and more tragic. The truth would be one, small thing that could be done now for the victim and his family.

abalone

01-02-2015, 12:03 PM

I can't believe any prosecution side of justice will let this crime slide. No, I bet investigators are currently putting together the facts, conducting interviews, performing speed and damage testing on the car and road skids. They will be seeking phone records, closed circuit tv evidence from business and traffic cameras that might have witnessed her leaving and returning to the scene. The DA's team will be working with the police to determine what level of crime or crimes they will be filing against the bishop.

I don't know about that. There have been even more egregious criminal acts caught in from of witnesses and videotaped that didn't result in charges. I'm not going to include those here, but the law doesn't generally side with the dead victim in these cases particularly when that victim isn't alive and can tell his side of the story.

Prosecution side can do all those things you mentioned about obtaining evidence, and they can do it after charges are filed. Charges are not a final jury verdict. You don't need solid, water-tight, evidence that a crime has occurred. All that is needed is reasonable evidence that a crime may have occurred, and whether or not this lady is guilty of a crime would later be determined in a trial. So the fact that this lady hasn't been charged for anything, almost a full-week later after the death of Tom, is extremely worrisome.

rustychisel

01-02-2015, 02:33 PM

My sincere condolences to all affected by this needless offense; I really did not know what to write before this point.

For those who feel a prosecution is a certaintly and justice served, please take the time to read through the following; a case from Sth Australia with some similarities. A number of years ago cyclist Ian Humphries was struck and killed by a 'hit and run' driver. The level of mendacity is disgusting, and illuminating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapunda_Road_Royal_Commission

Kevan

01-02-2015, 03:08 PM

According to a Baltimore NPR morning news report on this story, a police spokesperson stated that the investigation is still in its early stages, and no charges have been filled as yet.

sitzmark

01-02-2015, 03:40 PM

... If the facts of this tragic case are as they appear, there are two ways this could go. The truly 'Christian' way would be tell the unvarnished truth and seek to make amends for your actions, atone and accept the consequences. The organized Christ, Inc way would be to lawyer up, obfuscate, rationalize, back room and buy your way out ... .

Only two???

What if she says she was blinded by the sun, an animal ran in her path at the last minute, or a thousand other explanations for an "accident". What do you charge her with? Then there will be nuances surrounding her leaving the scene and if immediate help would have had a reasonable chance of Tom's survival. etc. etc. etc. The sky is the limit to the possibilities based on what information is publicly available.

A friend was killed in much the same scenario almost 4 years ago; however, the 62 y.o. librarian did stop. She ultimately claims a sneezing fit caused her to veer over the fog line on a long straight unobstructed stretch of road. True? Untrue? No one was there except the two of them. The rest of us (including his wife) finished our group ride and were eating at a restaurant. Stan decided to ride home a do a little work (well known physician). To this day the continuances, postponements, and expert testimony continues, despite her being charged a few days after with vehicular homicide. Then a freeakin cycling blogger was upset that only prominent cyclists are deserving of legal charges. Butthead.

Let the process play out ... it is going to anyway and probably over a very long time. The focus should be on Tom and his family.

Llewellyn

01-02-2015, 04:37 PM

My sincere condolences to all affected by this needless offense; I really did not know what to write before this point.

For those who feel a prosecution is a certainty and justice served, please take the time to read through the following; a case from Sth Australia with some similarities. A number of years ago cyclist Ian Humphries was struck and killed by a 'hit and run' driver. The level of mendacity is disgusting, and illuminating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapunda_Road_Royal_Commission

Yes, one of the more disgraceful examples of the failures of the Australian legal system. I wouldn't be holding my breath about the outcome of the Tom Palermo incident either. Unfortunately :mad:

MadRocketSci

01-02-2015, 04:57 PM

I don't know exactly what makes the universe tick, but I am pretty sure of this. Whether there's a god, an intelligence, a spirit or some being with a hell of a software program, it knows what happened on that road. Karma will come due. No lawyer or check is changing that.

Here's how I see it:

The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death - however mutable man may be able to make them - our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfilment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.

Stanley Kubrick, 1968

I suppose there's a strong human tendency to believe in some kind of force for justice in the universe. We the people must be that force before all others.

abalone

01-02-2015, 04:57 PM

For those that say leave all well alone, the Justice system will do its job, focus on Tom and his family. Thank you. However, the focus for Tom and his family isn't a pure silent grieving process. His family deserve some privacy to grieve, but his friends and the community of Baltimore have already demanded that justice be done. Tom cannot speak for himself, and until charges are filed, and Justice is done, then some noise needs to be made and voices need to be heard. Now, is not the time for silence. The calls for justice must come and it must come from a vocal community.

History is littered with so-called accidents and the lack of charges against these incidents. This woman even had a past history of drunk driving. She has abused her driving privileges, and I have little doubt that it has led to the death of Tom Palermo. Just take 2 seconds to do an image search of the car she was driving when she was busted for the 1st DUI. It's shocking! She was so utterly drunk she had vomit on her shirt, was over 3 times the legal blood alcohol limit, had marijuana in her system, and a admitted to both smoking marijuana AND drinking alcohol in her car! Do a search, look at the car she was driving. It's the EXACT same Subaru Forester she used when she killed Tom. When she was stopped for the 1st DUI, she was so drunk that she didn't even know that her flat tire had disintegrated to the point that she was driving on the rim of the tire! There is a pic online of this, and a video news report from CBS Baltimore.

avalonracing

01-03-2015, 09:36 AM

Tom cannot speak for himself, and until charges are filed, and Justice is done, then some noise needs to be made and voices need to be heard. Now, is not the time for silence. The calls for justice must come and it must come from a vocal community.

Agreed. I'm sure a lot of people hope this this stays as quiet as possible until it just blows over and people move along. Now is the time to keep this thing in the eyes of the public.

ORMojo

01-03-2015, 10:59 AM

"Hulting said that with two young kids, a full-time job, as well as his small custom bike building business, his brother-in-law hadn't had been able to ride as much as he'd like in recent years.

'Last Saturday was a beautiful day and Rachel [Palermo's wife], realizing how busy they had been, suggested to Tom that he do what he loved and go out for a ride,' Hulting said."

Reading the above just further broke my heart, both as a spouse and as a cyclist.

On a relatively positive note, the online giving to the Educational Trust for his children has just passed the $50k mark.

velomonkey

01-03-2015, 12:29 PM

If the facts of this tragic case are as they appear, there are two ways this could go. The truly 'Christian' way would be tell the unvarnished truth and seek to make amends for your actions, atone and accept the consequences. The organized Christ, Inc way would be to lawyer up, obfuscate, rationalize, back room and buy your way out.

I don't want to bring religion into it, but the perp did bring religion into it - so I will simply say - I agree 100% with what you said and, as an atheist, it's stuff like this that reinforces my view.

We are all human and I never expect people to be perfect, but this is simply beyond the pail and so far her employer (i.e., her church) is doing everything UPS would do if one of their drivers did the same thing.

Louis

01-03-2015, 04:31 PM

so far her employer (i.e., her church) is doing everything UPS would do if one of their drivers did the same thing.

Based on various and sundry news stories we've heard over the last few years, I think it's fair to say that large churches are first and foremost organizations, and the first instinct of all organizations, when threatened, is to defend themselves, regardless of what their "mission statement" might be.

makoti

01-05-2015, 06:33 PM

The church has started to investigate her...

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Church-Investigates-Bishop-Who-Fatally-Struck-Cyclist-287578051.html?partner=nbcnews?par=nbcnews&site=nbcnews.com&cm_ven=nbcnews&cm_cat=Article

Louis

01-05-2015, 06:49 PM

How much longer, until it's obvious that they aren't going to press charges?

This is getting silly.

OtayBW

01-05-2015, 07:22 PM

rePhil

01-05-2015, 07:24 PM

I served on a DUI manslaughter jury. It took over a year for the state to determine who the driver was between two young men who both denied driving. Things got quiet after the first month or so of press until the arrest.

The defendant maintained his innocence until sentencing where he admitted driving and asked for mercy.

David Kirk

01-05-2015, 07:30 PM

The Episcopal Diocese is supposed to be meeting tomorrow in Frederick, MD to discuss this matter.

As irritated as I am by the slow movement of the police investigation - or their lack of any transparency or public disclosure whatsoever - I do not believe that Cook will walk away from a felony charge of leaving the scene of a fatal accident. She may skate around motor vehicle manslaughter charges, but I think leaving the scene will be her undoing. What happens beyond that - and what influence the church may have, if any - I can't say. But I believe this one has gotten away from her. We'll see.

That makes sense.

I think the thing that will really tell the tale is what she did during the 20-45 minutes she was away from the scene of the accident. Did she go home in a panic, see the error of her ways?..........or did she go home and flush a bunch of dope down the crapper or hide 1/2 empty bottles of whiskey before coming back. Neither are by any means acceptable but one is much worse than the other.

I so feel for the family - the loss and the wait for real action would drive me crazy.

dave

OtayBW

01-05-2015, 07:44 PM

You know, I no sooner posted my last comment, feeling like, 'OK, something will get resolved here; something has to work out' than I ran across the following article: https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/05/opinion-justice-for-all-why-hasnt-bishop-cook-who-struck-bicyclist-palermo-been-charged/.
Having read this take on the matter by a local criminal defense attorney, I now feel less 'charitable' regarding the slow pace at which things are going.

He's right.....

BumbleBeeDave

01-05-2015, 08:35 PM

. . . http://www.christianpost.com/news/police-building-criminal-case-against-bishop-heather-cook-for-fatal-hit-and-run-church-says-her-fate-is-out-of-their-hands-132122/

BBD

BumbleBeeDave

01-05-2015, 08:42 PM

http://www.youcaring.com/tuition-fundraiser/children-of-tom-palermo/283939

They've already got over $65k.

BBD

GregL

01-05-2015, 10:02 PM

Sometimes the wheels of justice turn slowly. A tragic hit and run took place in CNY on October 30, yet the most serious indictments took nearly two months to be made: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/12/vincent_carello_indicted_on_manslaughter_charge_in _cicero_runners_death.html

The DA took a lot of heat in the press, but the victim's family supported him and in the end were rewarded for their patience. Hopefully Bishop Cook will also face significant charges.

- Greg

Climb01742

01-06-2015, 10:30 AM

SamIAm

01-06-2015, 03:34 PM

Latest here:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-episcopal-church-20150106-story.html

Louis

01-06-2015, 03:55 PM

Latest here:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-episcopal-church-20150106-story.html

Looks like the spin-machine is working overtime:

"Church: Md. bishop who left scene of fatal crash was 'in shock' "

In that case, I guess leaving is OK.

malcolm

01-06-2015, 04:14 PM

ER general rule of thumb if you can make a phone call to tell someone you are in shock you most likely are not.

They certainly seem to be posturing to put a favorable spin on it.

I could get past a teenager fleeing the scene and would view returning as admirable, but at 58 shock or not that dog won't hunt.

makoti

01-06-2015, 04:57 PM

Latest here:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-episcopal-church-20150106-story.html

She called someone about twenty minutes after the accident? So she didn't return in the twenty minutes she claimed, I guess.
As mentioned before, if you can tell someone you're in shock, you're not.

velomonkey

01-06-2015, 05:03 PM

I am knowing saying these words and picking them carefully.

I hate this woman, HATE. I hate what her 'church' is doing.

I'm sorry, F her, I don't believe there is a hell, but if there is she is surely gonna burn.

SamIAm

01-06-2015, 05:21 PM

Looks like the spin-machine is working overtime:

"Church: Md. bishop who left scene of fatal crash was 'in shock' "

In that case, I guess leaving is OK.

I was driving along one time and a tree branch crashed through my windshield and then bounced down the road a bit. At the time I was not aware that it was a branch, I just knew the windshield was smashed. My only thought was what the heck was that!? I stopped immediately to investigate.

My guess is that if she was legitimately in shock, which I doubt, it was because she knew exactly what had just happened, not simply that she thought she may have hit a cyclist.

slidey

01-06-2015, 05:23 PM

I guess that's the power of being in a privileged position - the usual doesn't apply to you - you get to go back home the day you've murdered someone in an intoxicated state, you get no charges pressed, your prior record is referred to as "the past". Easy-peasy, no hassles really! I'm beginning to see the (head)light of religion now.

shovelhd

01-06-2015, 05:28 PM

echelon_john

01-06-2015, 05:31 PM

Street justice may be the best justice.

Climb01742

01-06-2015, 05:50 PM

You wouldn't have thought it possible, but with each passing day, doesn't this story get more and more depressing?

Is there any large, powerful organization that isn't corrupt?

Kinda makes you wonder if they even read the Bible. Or ever seen 'Pulp Fiction'.

'You read the Bible, Brent?'

Ezekiel 25:17 (according to Jules):

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

unterhausen

01-06-2015, 06:03 PM

it's not more depressing, it's more enraging. The church needs to hear from us

I was bad mouthing Penn State in another thread, but the institution itself reacted to the Sandusky scandal in the most outstanding way possible. They have been writing checks and apologizing right and left. What else can an ethical organization do? It doesn't surprise me that a batch of god-botherers can't act in an ethical fashion though.

CNY rider

01-06-2015, 06:19 PM

I predict she will get no significant punishment for this heinous crime.
She will show up for court in her church lady outfit, with high powered lawyer at her side.
She will talk about being reborn, re-connecting with her faith, yadda yadda yadda.

I guarantee you that in the courtroom across the hall the dumb ass 18 year old with dreadlocks who got caught with some weed will face stiffer punishment.

texbike

01-06-2015, 06:25 PM

Latest here:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-episcopal-church-20150106-story.html

OK, I'm pissed. This is bull****!!!!

It looks like the Church didn't have their meeting today to talk about holding Heather Cook accountable, but to make sure that everyone was on point from a public messaging perspective. I can guarantee that EVERY SINGLE person in that room was told NOT to talk to the press or anyone publicly about the case and to direct all inquiries to Sutton's office or the church's attorney. They're doing nothing but covering their asses!

Here are a few of the quotes from the article that say to me that the Diocese has their priorities wrong:

Slater called the crash a "terrible tragedy."

"Heather and I were in a professional colleague group prior to her election," he said. "I consider her a friend as well as a colleague. I am deeply saddened for her as well the Palermo family."David Irwin, Cook's attorney, said he was appreciative of the way the church has handled its investigation thus far.

"I'm appreciative they are still supportive of her," he (Cook's attorney) said. "They've been kind to her, and we appreciate it."

I love this one -

"Sutton said the clergy planned to hold future days of fasting and prayer for the Palermo family but dates have yet been set".

Yeah, that's going to help. Instead of circling the wagons and taking care of their own, they should be doing what's right (you know, the CHRISTIAN thing???) and take care of the Palermo family.

It looks like it's time to escalate this battle and start putting pressure on the Episcopal Church on a national level to take action.

Texbike

slidey

01-06-2015, 06:25 PM

OtayBW

01-06-2015, 07:16 PM

Hmmm...I just read some of the news accounts of today's meeting of the MD Episcopal church. Not much I can peacefully say right now, so I'll just quote one of the reader's comments on one of the websites that I saw:

This is pathetic, and it's a win for the defense. Ms. Cook gets to make a statement without making a statement - the Episcopal Church does it for her. I have been a supporter of patience on behalf of the police...up to this point. Now that this disgusting degenerate is using the weight of the Church to her benefit, the BPD needs to come forward and begin releasing facts. Ms. Cook has now - through her mouthpieces within the Church - put forth the story that she was unaware of what had actually happened...the first step in her efforts to pretend she had no idea what happened. Time for the toxicology report and roadway evidence to become public.- Anon.
Pretty much sums it up for me....

abalone

01-06-2015, 09:36 PM

OK, I'm pissed. This is bull****!!!!

It looks like the Church didn't have their meeting today to talk about holding Heather Cook accountable, but to make sure that everyone was on point from a public messaging perspective. I can guarantee that EVERY SINGLE person in that room was told NOT to talk to the press or anyone publicly about the case and to direct all inquiries to Sutton's office or the church's attorney. They're doing nothing but covering their asses!

Here are a few of the quotes from the article that say to me that the Diocese has their priorities wrong:

Slater called the crash a "terrible tragedy."

"Heather and I were in a professional colleague group prior to her election," he said. "I consider her a friend as well as a colleague. I am deeply saddened for her as well the Palermo family."David Irwin, Cook's attorney, said he was appreciative of the way the church has handled its investigation thus far.

"I'm appreciative they are still supportive of her," he (Cook's attorney) said. "They've been kind to her, and we appreciate it."

I love this one -

"Sutton said the clergy planned to hold future days of fasting and prayer for the Palermo family but dates have yet been set".

Yeah, that's going to help. Instead of circling the wagons and taking care of their own, they should be doing what's right (you know, the CHRISTIAN thing???) and take care of the Palermo family.

It looks like it's time to escalate this battle and start putting pressure on the Episcopal Church on a national level to take action.

Texbike

Oh my god. She isn't going to be charged. I bet the Baltimore Police Dept didn't even drug test her.

Llewellyn

01-06-2015, 10:16 PM

Oh my god. She isn't going to be charged. I bet the Baltimore Police Dept didn't even drug test her.

Sadly, I think you're right. The church is probably already preparing the ground for this to just quietly fade away without any charges.

Then they'll pay a sum of money to Tom's family complete with confidential terms and a non-disclosure clause as if that makes it all OK. Makes me sick beyond words

mjb266

01-06-2015, 11:11 PM

At this point, with no faith in the BPD, my only hope is that the church will make sure that Tom's family is taken care of...a reverse pennance of sorts.

As much as I'd love to see charges brought, I want to see his kids and spouse suported even more. The donation site for Tom's kids' education should jump from $60k to $1.6mil in a single anonymous donation.

abalone

01-06-2015, 11:34 PM

As much as I'd love to see charges brought, I want to see his kids and spouse suported even more. The donation site for Tom's kids' education should jump from $60k to $1.6mil in a single anonymous donation.

If I was a member of that church, I would find a different church to go to on Sunday's. It's outrageous that the Church was so sympathetic to this lady after her first drunk driving arrest which could have easily resulted in another death years ago, and now they are again sympathetic to this lady almost to the point of making a defense for her by stating that she came back to the accident scene to take responsibility for what she did.

The money raised so far, about 65k, is nothing compared to a lifetime of earning Tom's wife is missing now that Tom is dead. He was a software engineer, if I remember correctly from another article, in addition to working as a framebuilder. Many widows who have lost husbands have struggled mightily to care for their family once their spouse has died. I'm sure that it won't be easy for Tom's wife to take care of and raise two young children by herself while also presumably paying for rent or a home mortgage. The amount raised is nothing compared to the amount lost in a lifetime without someone to love.

oldpotatoe

01-07-2015, 06:29 AM

OK, I'm pissed. This is bull****!!!!

It looks like the Church didn't have their meeting today to talk about holding Heather Cook accountable, but to make sure that everyone was on point from a public messaging perspective. I can guarantee that EVERY SINGLE person in that room was told NOT to talk to the press or anyone publicly about the case and to direct all inquiries to Sutton's office or the church's attorney. They're doing nothing but covering their asses!

Here are a few of the quotes from the article that say to me that the Diocese has their priorities wrong:

Slater called the crash a "terrible tragedy."

"Heather and I were in a professional colleague group prior to her election," he said. "I consider her a friend as well as a colleague. I am deeply saddened for her as well the Palermo family."David Irwin, Cook's attorney, said he was appreciative of the way the church has handled its investigation thus far.

"I'm appreciative they are still supportive of her," he (Cook's attorney) said. "They've been kind to her, and we appreciate it."

I love this one -

"Sutton said the clergy planned to hold future days of fasting and prayer for the Palermo family but dates have yet been set".

Yeah, that's going to help. Instead of circling the wagons and taking care of their own, they should be doing what's right (you know, the CHRISTIAN thing???) and take care of the Palermo family.

It looks like it's time to escalate this battle and start putting pressure on the Episcopal Church on a national level to take action.

Texbike

You and everybody you know could write an email to them, once an hour until whenever and the 'church', would just nod and delete. They are 'circling the wagons', and will spend a lot to protect this woman. As mentioned, she will come to court in her church lady collar, probably weep a little, ask for 'forgiveness as I have asked god for'...BS and blah, blah.

I hope they tested her, can't absolve that info. I hope the church steps up and takes care of the Palermo family and if it doesn't, get a good lawyer and sue her and the church. The burden of proof for $, civil court, is much less.

The episcopal church is one of the wealthiest there is.

El Chaba

01-07-2015, 07:33 AM

texbike

01-07-2015, 08:28 AM

Now would be a great time for members of the Episcopal Church-especially in Maryland- to send a clear message to the leadership. They should cease all contributions to the church and instead forward them to the Palermo family.

Exactly. If the Diocese itself isn't stepping up, the leadership in the individual churches should be encouraging their members to contribute to the fund and perhaps directing some of their own collections to the family. It would be the Christian thing to do.

Texbike

joosttx

01-07-2015, 08:38 AM

Exactly. If the Diocese itself isn't stepping up, the leadership in the individual churches should be encouraging their members to contribute to the fund and perhaps directing some of their own collections to the family. It would be the Christian thing to do.

Texbike

I have written a letter to my Parish suggesting this.

SamIAm

01-07-2015, 08:57 AM

I'm clear on why the Episcopal Church bears responsibility for not immediately removing this "bishop" permanently from leadership. It is also possible that they may be culpable in tampering with the justice system, although that is certainly not proven at this point. On the other hand if the justice system offers unsolicited deference to religious leaders or others in positions of prestige, that is on the justice system, not the Episcopal church.

But I fail to make the connection of why they are financially responsible to the Palermo family. That connection seems tenuous at best. From a strictly secular perspective, maybe if the church worked behind the scenes to get her previous drunk driving charge dismissed with a slap on the wrist AND this incident was ultimately proven to have been related to drunk driving, then yes I could see some responsibility. But other than than, I'm not seeing the connection any more than my employer bears responsibility for the way I operate my vehicle. Understanding that UPS/FedEx etc. drivers are a different matter.

From a Christian perspective, scripture is clear widows and orphans are to be supported by the church proper. So it would make sense, not just for the Episcopal church, but other area churches as well to take up an offering for the Palermo family.

OtayBW

01-07-2015, 09:01 AM

She is on Administrative Leave with pay, btw, as far as I know...

OtayBW

01-07-2015, 09:25 AM

But other than than, I'm not seeing the connection any more than my employer bears responsibility for the way I operate my vehicle. Understanding that UPS/FedEx etc. drivers are a different matter.
I guess it depends on whether she is considered to be a 'spokesperson', acting on behalf of the church at all times. She left a man for dead (while acting in the capacity of a high-ranking church official?), and from all that we've seen thus far, the church is supporting her in spite of that knowledge. By my reckoning that is approaching some kind of culpability. At the very least, this has got slippery slope written all over it.....

Climb01742

01-07-2015, 09:44 AM

If a church and its leaders aren't going to act in accordance with a higher standard of ethics, morality and truth, then take off the funny clothes and stop passing the plate on Sunday's. So far it seems the church is doing its best to take 'Christ' out of Christianity.

texbike

01-07-2015, 09:45 AM

I fail to make the connection of why they are financially responsible to the Palermo family. That connection seems tenuous at best. From a strictly secular perspective, maybe if the church worked behind the scenes to get her previous drunk driving charge dismissed with a slap on the wrist AND this incident was ultimately proven to have been related to drunk driving, then yes I could see some responsibility. But other than than, I'm not seeing the connection any more than my employer bears responsibility for the way I operate my vehicle. Understanding that UPS/FedEx etc. drivers are a different matter.

From a Christian perspective, scripture is clear widows and orphans are to be supported by the church proper. So it would make sense, not just for the Episcopal church, but other area churches as well to take up an offering for the Palermo family.

I don't believe that there is a legal requirement (of course that could be determined at a later date by a civil court) on the part of the Diocese to do anything for the family financially, but I do believe that there is a moral (one might say CHRISTIAN) obligation to do so when one of their top leaders is involved in an incident like this.

I guess it depends on whether she is considered to be a 'spokesperson', acting on behalf of the church at all times. She left a man for dead (while acting in the capacity of a high-ranking church official?), and from all that we've seen thus far, the church is supporting her in spite of that knowledge. By my reckoning that is approaching some kind of culpability. At the very least, this has got slippery slope written all over it.....

Is a person of the cloth ever, truly not "on the clock" when they're in their community? The way the Diocese has jumped to her defense (or at least support) would suggest that they feel that there is some responsibility on their part.

Texbike

Kevan

01-07-2015, 10:21 AM

http://www.christianpost.com/news/police-building-criminal-case-against-bishop-heather-cook-for-fatal-hit-and-run-church-says-her-fate-is-out-of-their-hands-132122/

http://episcopalmaryland.org/statement-following-the-meeting-of-diocesan-clergy/

oldpotatoe

01-07-2015, 10:42 AM

texbike

01-07-2015, 10:43 AM

http://episcopalmaryland.org/statement-following-the-meeting-of-diocesan-clergy/

Thanks. I'm glad to see this statement within the article: "We are urging congregations to designate a Sunday offering for the Palermo family fund".

This is good information-

The Episcopal Diocese of Maryland is a Christian community of 21,500 households in 108 congregations covering 10 counties and Baltimore City; our purpose is to sustain our community of churches, congregations and ministries while living into our Baptismal Covenant to proclaim by word and example the good news of God in Christ, seek and serve Christ in all persons, and strive for justice and peace among all people, respecting the dignity of every human being. Please visit www.episcopalmaryland.org for more information. The Episcopal Church is a community of 2.4 million members in 100 nationwide dioceses, 10 overseas dioceses and six extra-provincial territories;www.episcopalchurch.org.

Perhaps as a community we could all right letters to our local Diocese to inform them of the incident and encourage them to designate a Sunday offering in their area congregations for the Palermo family fund as well.

Texbike

BumbleBeeDave

01-07-2015, 04:28 PM

. . . all parties are acting exactly as you might expect them to.

On the prosecution side:

This case is being given to a new DA who took office on January 1. One of the plank's of her campaign was equal treatment for all under the law. If that new DA is going to charge Cook, then DA needs to keep silent and make absolutely sure all the details are correct so as to preclude any possibility a jury could see a reasonable doubt. She also has to decide what charge she has the best chance to get a conviction on, keeping in mind that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Make no mistake, this is a high profile case that will continue to garner heavy local media attention. If she charges Cook and the perp walks because some pre-charging investigatory detail was leaked or bungled, then she will catch hell, and deservedly so.

If the fix IS in and she is not going to charge Cook, then she has to give the appearance of having done a thorough investigation.

Either way, silence from the prosecution isn't surprising.

From the defense side:

Cook is very likely doing what she's been told: stay out of sight and totally silent. Equally likely, she's in rehab to support her anticipated teary confession and plea for understanding and leniency.

The church, meanwhile, is doing their best to capitalize on the prosecution's silence, taking advantage of the media vacuum to convince as much of the public and their parishioners as possible of Cook's lack of culpability. They're also trying to paint themselves as caring and concerned for Palermo's family, while deflecting any blame from themselves for having accepted her for high office in spite of the clear warning offered by the 2010 incident. They will play the religion card for all it's worth. They will also be trying to convince all their own parishioner's to keep supporting the local diocese with their donations. It's all about their reputation and their pocketbook.

All the players are very carefully holding their cards, drawing a few new ones, and carefully considering their next move. While all may feel sorry for Palermo's family, I strongly doubt that is their first consideration. Maybe that's a pessimistic view, but after 30 years in journalism I've just seen too many scenario's like this play out in pretty much this same way when a local prominent figure does something outrageously stupid.

A whole lot will be revealed by whatever the DA decides to charge her with--or not. If a negligent homicide charge is made, it will be because the DA feels she can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. If it's a low level misdemeanor, it could be because that's all the DA felt she could prove beyond a reasonable doubt--OR because a deal has been made.

BBD

shovelhd

01-07-2015, 05:24 PM

Thank you BBD for the voice of reason. Well said.

David Kirk

01-07-2015, 05:52 PM

Thank you BBD for the voice of reason. Well said.

What he said - thanks for the perspective.

Can anyone lay out the potential charges Cook may face and what they mean?

dave

gdw

01-07-2015, 06:26 PM

She left the scene of a fatal accident which typically is a felony. I'm not too familiar with Maryland's laws but believe I read she could be sentenced to up to 12 years in prison and heavily fined. Vehicular manslaughter charges are possible as well if it can be proven that she was "driving, operating, or controlling a vehicle or vessel in a grossly negligent manner." She could get up to 10 years and fined if found guilty.

As BBDave pointed out, investigations take time especially in high profile cases and the DA will only pursue charges which can be supported by evidence. Lesser charges are possible if the case is weak.

sitzmark

01-07-2015, 06:28 PM

Leaving the scene based on public information. What it means and how it's interpreted is nuanced in MD law. Other charges will depend on evidence of gross negligence.

This case http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/A-Madison-Man-is-Charged-with-Homicide-after-Hitting-a-Girl-with-his-Car-in-Sun-Prairie-201866971.html may provide some insight into how things are proceeding and a possible outcome IF she had positive tox results, which is total speculation at this point.

Did anyone here in the forum work with Tom on a frame, or have a friendship with him? Would be nice to hear about him. What was his inspiration as a frame maker? Was he technically driven by precision as an "engineer type" or was the gleam in his eye the result of creative collaboration and putting some whimsy into the details?

What he said - thanks for the perspective.

Can anyone lay out the potential charges Cook may face and what they mean?

dave

Cat3roadracer

01-07-2015, 06:30 PM

Dang Dave, are you now working in law enforcement? Nicely thought out.

OtayBW

01-07-2015, 06:35 PM

...If that new DA is going to charge Cook, then DA needs to keep silent and make absolutely sure all the details are correct so as to preclude any possibility a jury could see a reasonable doubt. She also has to decide what charge she has the best chance to get a conviction on, keeping in mind that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. BBDGood points, all. I've thought about the concept of them not wanting to taint a jury pool as well.

Can anyone lay out the potential charges Cook may face and what they mean?daveI do think in addition to what BBD mentioned that there has to be the possibility of felony flight from a fatal accident scene (as noted above). That's something that seems to be well-established and almost irrefutable. The question of her motor vehicle criminal negligence seems much less certain to prove, but I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so what do I know?

The question of what the public will demand and how that factors into things is also an interesting question. On one hand, there is always the usual motorist backlash against cyclists, but the Baltimore Sun is in the process of running an ad hoc poll on the matter, and the results thus far are surprising (to me...):

Charges for driver who struck cyclist? [Poll] (In: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bal-charges-for-driver-who-struck-cyclist-poll-20150106-htmlstory.html).
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/zelmo_2006/BaltSunVote.jpg (http://s77.photobucket.com/user/zelmo_2006/media/BaltSunVote.jpg.html)

malcolm

01-07-2015, 06:39 PM

giving to the educational fund seems to have stagnated if you can think of a place where it may be appropriate post the link, other forums etc. I've forwarded it to some friends.

Climb01742

01-07-2015, 06:49 PM

I encourage everyone to click on the Baltimore Sun link above to vote. It's a small gesture but may add some pressure on public opinion to pursue charges.

William

01-07-2015, 07:40 PM

I encourage everyone to click on the Baltimore Sun link above to vote. It's a small gesture but may add some pressure on public opinion to pursue charges.

Done.

William

shovelhd

01-07-2015, 07:41 PM

Leaving the scene based on public information. What it means and how it's interpreted is nuanced in MD law. Other charges will depend on evidence of gross negligence.

Public information, with lots of witnesses that I am sure are willing to testify.

David Kirk

01-07-2015, 07:45 PM

Done.

William

Me too.

dave

gasman

01-07-2015, 08:30 PM

Done

BumbleBeeDave

01-07-2015, 10:22 PM

. . . if the DA ends up charging her with a laundry list of every possible charge that could get a guilty verdict. I've seen this done before, with defendants charged with a bewildering array of things, some breaking laws you didn't even know existed.

I'm not in law enforcement, just have seen so many similar cases in the public eye follow similar arcs. Sometimes the perp ends up appropriately charged. sometimes it is pretty obvious the fix is in. I fervently hope this ends up being the former.

Manslaughter, leaving the scene, hit and run, depraved indifference . . . I'm sure the list of possibles is long.

BBD

SlowPokePete

01-08-2015, 06:01 AM

Just voted, with overwhelming majority wanting criminal charges brought.

How could you not?

Six people not on board, hard to believe!

SPP

oldpotatoe

01-08-2015, 06:02 AM

I encourage everyone to click on the Baltimore Sun link above to vote. It's a small gesture but may add some pressure on public opinion to pursue charges.

Done, and now 461 yes to 6 who say no and 10 not sure.

OtayBW

01-08-2015, 06:04 AM

Done, and now 461 yes to 6 who say no and 10 not sure.
Wow! I have to think that there will be some leverage associated with these astounding numbers.

oldpotatoe

01-08-2015, 06:13 AM

Wow! I have to think that there will be some leverage associated with these astounding numbers.

Of the people who read the paper and live around there, surprised it's less than 500 people voting. DA is new, elected on a platform of equal justice for all.

Hope so.

malcolm

01-08-2015, 08:30 AM

I encourage everyone to click on the Baltimore Sun link above to vote. It's a small gesture but may add some pressure on public opinion to pursue charges.

Climb thanks for the post I missed the link initially. Looking at the graph and totally over looked it.

Done

zap

01-08-2015, 09:00 AM

Can anyone lay out the potential charges Cook may face and what they mean?

dave

I'm not a lawyer-just an interest observer who did some research.

Based on what has been reported, focusing only on hit & run.

Maryland appears to be one of the tougher states when it comes to hit and run. Do not leave the scene of an accident in Maryland, even if you are a witness. From what I've gathered, hit and run resulting in death carries a maximum penalty of 10 years and 8-10 points. However, much is left to the police. Not sure how much a DA can (or at all) influence the police on this particular matter.

zap

01-08-2015, 09:03 AM

The question of what the public will demand and how that factors into things is also an interesting question. On one hand, there is always the usual motorist backlash against cyclists, but the Baltimore Sun is in the process of running an ad hoc poll on the matter, and the results thus far are surprising (to me...):

Charges for driver who struck cyclist? [Poll] (In: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bal-charges-for-driver-who-struck-cyclist-poll-20150106-htmlstory.html).
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j42/zelmo_2006/BaltSunVote.jpg (http://s77.photobucket.com/user/zelmo_2006/media/BaltSunVote.jpg.html)

Done.

snah

01-08-2015, 09:07 AM

Not sure if this article has been posted, but read it yesterday thru IndyCog.

https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/05/opinion-justice-for-all-why-hasnt-bishop-cook-who-struck-bicyclist-palermo-been-charged/

dhalbrook

01-08-2015, 11:35 AM

This hit me hard again this morning. The first time I heard about this I was deeply saddened, but even sadder was that I was hardly shocked. However, on the way to work I ran into a friend and running buddy who was very close friends with Tom. He had just gotten back to town after visiting with the victim's family. Seeing how distraught he was brought the whole thing up again in my mind.

Strangely it got me thinking that as much as technology may be to blame (distracted driving) it may also provide some salvation (collision warning systems, on-bike cameras, self-driving cars). Either way, it's no solace for those just lost, but perhaps some hope for a saner future.

Llewellyn

01-08-2015, 06:14 PM

Another vote added from this side of the world

SpokeValley

01-08-2015, 06:42 PM

I encourage everyone to click on the Baltimore Sun link above to vote. It's a small gesture but may add some pressure on public opinion to pursue charges.

Done

makoti

01-08-2015, 06:50 PM

1840 to 18. Hope the DA is watching.

bicimechanic

01-08-2015, 07:32 PM

Maybe we will have some answers 11am tomorrow...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-palermo-case-20150108-story.html

Climb01742

01-08-2015, 07:52 PM

Maybe we will have some answers 11am tomorrow...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-palermo-case-20150108-story.html

Very interesting article. Two things stood out for me:

That the church did not disclose her DUI to the church officials who voted on her appointment.

And that at least one church official understands what christian duty and ethics are.

Let's hope tomorrow brings us closer to justice.

OtayBW

01-08-2015, 09:21 PM

abalone

01-08-2015, 09:44 PM

Very interesting article. Two things stood out for me:

That the church did not disclose her DUI to the church officials who voted on her appointment.

WHAT? That is just wrong. Unbelievable that the church hid this. It's not like something that is a minor offense. Driving drunk, having admittd to also smoking marijuana and drinking while driving, getting found with drug paraphernalia in her car while driving on a flat wheel for miles. And she is barely punished by the system. And now it comes out that some church personnel actually hid this from members that voted her as Maryland's 1st ever female bishop?!

Louis

01-08-2015, 09:58 PM

WHAT? That is just wrong. Unbelievable that the church hid this. It's not like something that is a I or offense. Driving drunk, having admittd to also smoking marijuana and drinking while driving, getting found with drug paraphernalia in her car while driving on a flat wheel for miles.

I'm pretty sure they would have justified it with some convenient blather about repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc being important parts of their religion.

shovelhd

01-08-2015, 10:03 PM

I'm pretty sure they would have justified it with some convenient blather about repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc being important parts of their religion.

I think it's past that point now. It's damage control time. Her career is over for now. More heads may roll.

abalone

01-08-2015, 10:23 PM

I'm pretty sure they would have justified it with some convenient blather about repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc being important parts of their religion.

What is coming out now is really damning. If it is indeed true that church personnel hid her drunk driving record, drug offenses, and probation from voting member of the clergy, then I would definitely agree with the other poster that more heads are going to roll.

I want to know how her boss, another bishop - I think Sutton is his name... I want to know how he knew that she came back to the accident scene after fleeing to supposedly take responsibility for what happened. How did he know what her intent was? Did she call him from home right after hitting Tom? Was she drunk again when she hit Tom? For someone to admit to drinking while driving, and then being so drunk that you have vomit on your shirt and you don't even know that sparks are flying from your tire because you've been driving on a flat tire for miles, wow. I'm thinking that that person definitely has an alcohol problem.

It just occurred to me. She may have been drunk on sacrament wine! :eek:

verticaldoug

01-09-2015, 06:04 AM

I'm pretty sure they would have justified it with some convenient blather about repentance, forgiveness, mercy, etc being important parts of their religion.

Yes, but you can just quote Luke10:25-37 Parable of the Good Samaritan

�A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. �Look after him,� he said, �and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.�

36 �Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?�

37 The expert in the law replied, �The one who had mercy on him.�

Jesus told him, �Go and do likewise.�

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 06:43 AM

I want to know how her boss, another bishop - I think Sutton is his name... I want to know how he knew that she came back to the accident scene after fleeing to supposedly take responsibility for what happened. How did he know what her intent was? Did she call him from home right after hitting Tom? Was she drunk again when she hit Tom?
Reports say that the Right Rev. Cook (driver) called Bishop Sutton's assistant right before she returned to the scene. He then contacted her lawyer, interacted extensively with the police, and relayed all this info back to the Bishop. I think public sentiment, including from within the church, demand that this woman be removed from her position (my guess, that will happen pretty quickly) and prosecuted.

Still unclear to me about why she was not arrested on-site or whether she was DUI or whatever, but beyond that, I think it's taken a while to get to this place because we were waiting for the new DA to get sworn in (yesterday). She seems to be taking this up as one of her first tasks in office.

Very interesting turn of events.

malcolm

01-09-2015, 09:06 AM

It's appalling that the church didn't release the prior dui to those voting her into such a high office. I would feel betrayed if I were one of those who voted for her.

Her prior DUI seems very lightly punished for 3 X the legal limit, am I to understand $300 fine and probation, was there any loss of driving privileges??
I suspect I would have lost my license in similar circumstances.

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 09:32 AM

LJohnny

01-09-2015, 09:40 AM

Indeed leaves so many questions on the table...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Climb01742

01-09-2015, 09:57 AM

It appears the woman has a substance abuse problem. Yet her irresponsible behavior in 2010 had little negative consequences for her. Indeed, her career took a step forward.

Why is it when the less powerful or privileged in society err, they too often are told you need a hard lesson in personal responsibility and must pay the consequences...whereas when the more powerful or privileged screw up, they are given homilies in forgiveness and second chances?

seanile

01-09-2015, 10:03 AM

^in my mind, it's because deep down these people handing down the punishments don't see any similarities between themselves and the person they're punishing, so there is no sympathy or empathy....result of ego, lack of self-awareness, pride, discrimination, entitlement, etc.

buddybikes

01-09-2015, 10:16 AM

Guaranteed - judgement will be suspended sentence, lose license, pay fine for court fees.

velomonkey

01-09-2015, 10:27 AM

texbike

01-09-2015, 10:31 AM

Well, at least it's a start - Cook is be charged!!!!!!! (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-palermo-announcement-20150109-story.html) Manslaughter, leaving the scene, DUI and causing the accident due to texting.

Good. THROW the book at her, then throw away the key!!!!

She registered a .22 after the crash. That is insane! I wonder what it would have been if she had been tested at the time of the accident. Since she wasn't tested until at least 45 minutes after, I bet her attorney says that the test result is due to her having a drink AFTER the accident occurred to deal with her "shock".

Texbike

David Kirk

01-09-2015, 10:32 AM

Wow - texting while drunk while driving. Holy crap that pisses me off.

dave

bicimechanic

01-09-2015, 10:37 AM

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-palermo-announcement-20150109-story.html

texbike

01-09-2015, 10:44 AM

It will interesting to see how the Episcopal leadership explains this to their parishioners.

"Yeah, we umm kinda failed to mention that she plead guilty to DUI charges in 2010 which more than likely would have prevented her from being elected to her leadership role. She continued the substance abuse and has now killed a man as a result. Whoops. Our bad".

Texbike

laupsi

01-09-2015, 10:50 AM

according to an article I read earlier in the week most of those in the Episcopal church who voted her in had no idea of the previous DUI charge. they claim they never would have voted for her had this become known to them.

given the recent facts just surfaced in the "Balt. Sun" this case becomes all the more tragic. what a precious waste of life. A well respect person of our community who was also deeply devoted to and loved by his family and friends, all because of such boundless stupidity. it's simply sickening!

SamIAm

01-09-2015, 10:51 AM

. . . and that's part of the outrage for the locals. She obviously got preferential treatment in 2010 because of her position.

The church has already published comments referring to the forgiveness routine in that incident. But their revealed failure to disclose to voting clergy at the time about the incident makes that argument sound pretty hollow now. Also pretty obviously they didn't tell voters because it would have made a difference in their voting.

When it waddles like a corrupt duck, quacks like a corrupt duck, and flaps its wings like a corrupt duck, then it's a corrupt duck . . .

BBD

Let me start by saying that I think "bishop" cook should immediately become ex-bishop cook and that she should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and hopefully do some jail time. Further, she should not have been promoted in the first place, but from a Christian perspective there could be some debate on that front. It is gray.

Having said that, you frankly don't know whether she got preferential treatment in the 2010 DUI. And assuming she did, you don't know whether it was solicited by her or the church, or just SOP for the police/judicial system in that locale.

She certainly got off way too easy, but I know several locals who have paid a good lawyer and received similarly light punishment. I think the preferential outcome finds its roots more in the ability to afford the right defense and not being apart of the underclass. True Christians are guided by God's mandate for equal justice and would work to change any system that did not dispense it. They would also never take advantage of such a corrupt system for their benefit.

Also forgiveness must have a place within a Christian body. Someone who is truly repentant must be forgiven within the confines of such a community. But forgiveness does not take away consequences. Leadership has a higher standard, that of being beyond reproach. My opinion is that she falls well short of that mark.

I have no idea what the governance of the Episcopal church is, but at our church a potential leader is vetted by a committee and either recommended or not to go before the congregation for approval. The committee has full purview to look at your background, but this does not go before the congregation.

It is absurd to expect that a religion, based on the need and provision for forgiveness, would set up and operate a system that didn't forgive, again assuming true repentance. Their mistake in my mind was not putting enough time between the DUI and election to validate a changed life. Of course I'm not sure what the right interval would be, but I would have been guided by the fruit they bore in the interim. That is something I don't have visibility into, hence the gray.

There is no gray about what happened in this most recent incident though, at least not to my way of thinking.

I pray for and expect justice.

paredown

01-09-2015, 10:59 AM

I've posted in the Trust Fund sticky about two Proteus bikes for sale on the Classic Rendezvous mailing list with proceeds to benefit the trust fund for Tom's children.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=1684538#post1684538

For people who do not subscribe, PM me and I can provide emails for the individuals who have the frames for sale.

Dean

sc53

01-09-2015, 10:59 AM

What "changed life?" She got off way too easily in 2010 and did not change her behavior or her life in the four years hence, repeated her offense, and this time killed someone. As Dave Kirk said, texting while drunk while driving. Repeat offender. Unbelievable.

Tom

01-09-2015, 11:01 AM

Say she's a 150 pound female. According to a BAC calculator that I Googled, in 45 minutes she'd have to drink eight 1.5 ounce shots of Absolut to register .22 BAC.

That can't possibly be right.

malcolm

01-09-2015, 11:03 AM

velomonkey

01-09-2015, 11:11 AM

Having said that, you frankly don't know whether she got preferential treatment in the 2010 DUI. And assuming she did, you don't know whether it was solicited by her or the church, or just SOP for the police/judicial system in that locale.

She certainly got off way too easy. . . .

This makes no sense, you tell someone they don't know if she got preferential treatment, but then confirm that, yes, she got off too easy for her previous DUI.

Um, how does the logic escape anyone that if you got off too easy, ergo, you were given preferential treatment. Lawyer or not, church or not, all that matters is she got off easy - she took the preferential treatment knowing full well she still had a problem and that the justice system jailed people with the same offense for either having different color skin, not having the right lawyer or not having enough money.

Let's be perfectly clear - she failed, the church failed and the legal system failed. Justice, in no way, was given. Seems forgiveness was, oddly enough.

malcolm

01-09-2015, 11:12 AM

I think the church's behavior in suppressing the prior dui is despicable.

However at this point I don't think it's a religious debate. Human beings should act in an appropriate manner because it's the human right thing to do, no matter what building we come together in or what we believe.

In fairness to Sam I Am I think all he was saying was she got off easy, his suggestion was that you couldn't say if the church intervened or if she just could afford a good lawyer and it's a good point. I suspect if you can afford the best attorney you stand a much better chance than someone that can't afford representation.

west_jay

01-09-2015, 11:19 AM

Bump

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maryland-bishop-charged-with-manslaugther-for-killing-cyclist/2015/01/09/6d420b1e-981c-11e4-8005-1924ede3e54a_story.html

soulspinner

01-09-2015, 11:23 AM

Wow - texting while drunk while driving. Holy crap that pisses me off.

dave

.22 is a huge number just to walk, but to drive and text? My guess is she is used to being this loaded and has nearly hurt someone before.... what pisses me off most is the church knew what was up with her....

abalone

01-09-2015, 11:25 AM

Wow - texting while drunk while driving. Holy crap that pisses me off.

dave

I knew that she was going to be found drunk! All signs prior to this incident, and including this incident, pointed to it.

1) She has a prior drunk driving DUI on her record
2) She has marijuana and drug paraphernalia charges associated with that DUI
3) Other information shows that her 2010 DUI was extremely egregious in that she was 3X over the blood alcohol limit, had vomit on her shirt, was completely unaware that she was driving on an almost bare rim with a flat tire for miles prior to the cops pulling her over

... despite all of the above in 2010, she was given a fine of $300 and a probationary slap on the wrist.
... despite all of the above, she was later elected by voting clergy to become Maryland's 1st ever female bishop

Tom Palermo's death didn't need to happen. This lady was never punished adequately in 2010 to effectively curtail her, now obvious, alcohol abuse problems. The church's further quick forgiveness of this behavior only enabled her to continue doing what she was already doing, which was getting drunk and doing so probably on church time. If an alcohol abuser has access to free wine, like Sacrament wine from the church, what do you think they are going to do? I want to know where this lady was before the accident. Did she attend some church meeting or function, and get tanked up with alcohol there?

David Kirk

01-09-2015, 11:28 AM

.22 is a huge number just to walk, but to drive and text? My guess is she is used to being this loaded and has nearly hurt someone before.... what pisses me off most is the church knew what was up with her....

I agree.

I know that nothing that can happen at this point can bring Tom back to his loved ones........that said I'd love to see a law suit against those that helped cover up her problem so that she could go on to kill. Cook was the killer but she had help.

dave

fiamme red

01-09-2015, 11:33 AM

Bump

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maryland-bishop-charged-with-manslaugther-for-killing-cyclist/2015/01/09/6d420b1e-981c-11e4-8005-1924ede3e54a_story.htmlThe Right Rev. Eugene Taylor Sutton, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland in a statement thanked the Baltimore Police Department and the State’s Attorney’s office for the “thoroughness and care” with which they have handled the case.

“On behalf of everyone in the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland, please know that we are deeply heartbroken over this, and we cry for the Palermo family, our sister Heather and all in the community who are hurting,” Sutton said.He makes it sound as if they're crying for the killer and victim equally. :confused:

shovelhd

01-09-2015, 11:33 AM

Glad to hear she is being charged and hope she gets every minute of the 10 years and more if they can think of something else.

Interesting to see that the spin worked to at least some degree as the paper went with the she left the scene in shock as if that had in any way been substantiated.

That should be on the prosecution discovery list.

Props to the new DA for getting this out for today's news cycle and not holding it to be buried for the weekend.

I was waiting for the first paycheck from my new job to donate to the fund, done.

It's a very encouraging but bittersweet day for everyone involved.

FlashUNC

01-09-2015, 11:35 AM

Between fighting a pretty airtight manslaughter charge and the inevitable wrongful death suit, some measure of justice can wrought out of this.

But nothing's going to bring him back for his family and kids.

She's despicable.

laupsi

01-09-2015, 11:42 AM

also read something that her superior in the church had to quickly make arrangements after the accident because she was scheduled to do a wedding later that day/evening. how many weddings do you think she did while completely tanked?

west_jay

01-09-2015, 11:57 AM

slidey

01-09-2015, 12:05 PM

how many weddings do you think she did while completely tanked?

As a percentage, oh, lets say 100%

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 12:08 PM

From the Baltimore Sun article (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/north-baltimore/bs-md-ci-palermo-announcement-20150109-story.html:
Cook will face charges of leaving the scene of a fatal accident; driving under the influence and causing an accident due to texting while driving. Both the manslaughter and leaving the scene charge carry a maximum sentence of 10 years imprisonment.

Son of a bitch!!!!!...........:butt:

mcteague

01-09-2015, 12:14 PM

LJohnny

01-09-2015, 12:14 PM

In Glenarden, MD, a mentally-ill man plowed into two un-manned police cruisers with a dump truck on Wed. He was charged with attempted murder within 24 hours.

Think about that, Baltimore, come next election cycle.

I saw that last night and also remarked on the distinct treatment. The truck hit the trunk of the car...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Climb01742

01-09-2015, 12:21 PM

Well, at least it's a start - Cook is be charged!!!!!!! (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-palermo-announcement-20150109-story.html) Manslaughter, leaving the scene, DUI and causing the accident due to texting.

Good. THROW the book at her, then throw away the key!!!!

It's worth it to play and listen to the state's attorney outline the charges on the link. They are indeed throwing the book at her. Bravo, Ms. Mosby. Listening to the list of charges is a vivid, heartbreaking evocation of depraved indifference to human life.

The new State's attorney is a 34 year old black woman who ran on a reform platform. So when she says that the charges brought today are meant to demonstrate that no one is above the law, I believe her. Maybe justice will be done.

unterhausen

01-09-2015, 12:24 PM

Wow - texting while drunk while driving. Holy crap that pisses me off.

dave

Interestingly, when I looked at the google street view of the collision site, I first thought that she must have been texting. Because people take empty, straight roads as permission to mess with their phones. Little did I know she was also drunk.

I'm hoping she never gets out of prison, to be perfectly honest

soulspinner

01-09-2015, 12:51 PM

It's worth it to play and listen to the state's attorney outline the charges on the link. They are indeed throwing the book at her. Bravo, Ms. Mosby. Listening to the list of charges is a vivid, heartbreaking evocation of depraved indifference to human life.

The new State's attorney is a 34 year old black woman who ran on a reform platform. So when she says that the charges brought today are meant to demonstrate that no one is above the law, I believe her. Maybe justice will be done.

wonder how agressive the last DA would have been. God bless the Palermo family.

AngryScientist

01-09-2015, 12:53 PM

bluesea

01-09-2015, 12:53 PM

Drunk AND texting!!!:crap:

Tim

...and an officer of the church.

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 12:59 PM

Bravo, Ms. Mosby. Listening to the list of charges is a vivid, heartbreaking evocation of depraved indifference to human life.

The new State's attorney is a 34 year old black woman who ran on a reform platform. So when she says that the charges brought today are meant to demonstrate that no one is above the law, I believe her. Maybe justice will be done.

Bravo Ms Mosby. She appears to have conviction in her voice.

Agreed. I felt a lot better about this whole thing when I found out last night that this topic was to be the ~first order of business after her being sworn in.

abalone

01-09-2015, 01:02 PM

Bravo Ms Mosby. She appears to have conviction in her voice.

.22 BAC, probably taken hours after the accident. that means to me she was even more lit up when she struck Tom. Let's hope if she ever gets out of jail, she never drives again, some people don't belong behind a wheel.

They're going to say that she was totally sober, went back to her home and had a drink while she was in shock. Then, realizing what might have been, took responsibility after talking with her church boss, then headed back to the scene. The sober argument would only be used as a last resort. Her more likely argument is below...

She might also say that the place that provided her with the drinks, if there is proof, did so without a liquor license and was responsible because she kept drinking what they provided freely.

sc53

01-09-2015, 01:10 PM

Abalone I too am cynical by nature and habitually expect the worst of our institutions, but I think "sister Heather" is going down on this one. Probably her boss Bishop Sutton will lose his post too. Poor poor judgment not to mention hypocrisy of the highest level.

sitzmark

01-09-2015, 01:20 PM

Bishop, priest, pew duster - her title was of no consequence. She's responsible for her actions and it appears she will be prosecuted accordingly. Leniency the first time will double-double down on her sentencing this time. Her penalties were on the lower end of the scale for what is reported to be "typical" for a MD DUI first offense, which will strongly work against her this time. She was given her chance for a "life change" in the first event. She was most likely counseled sternly to learn from her mistakes by those vetting/supporting her for Bishop. She didn't heed that advice/opportunity either. Her life as she has known it is (completely) over - as it should be.

She isn't prominent enough or wealthy enough to avoid being crushed this time. The "church" has no reason to be involved with her defense (unless the church owns the vehicle or she was on official church business at the time).

Her justice will most likely run similar to the link I posted earlier for the WI bishop, except there will be less need to horse trade on charges to bring the case to a close. DUI in MD is a misdemeanor. Texting the same. The other charges (as with the WI bishop) will bury her. Tom's family will play a big role in what charges they are (are not) willing to negotiate. Like WI sentencing will lean to the high side and may even exceed what the prosecutors ask for, ala WI.

A conviction will move the process forward for Tom's family to seek civil damages and collect on her insurance policy(s). NOTHING the system can do will make up for the loss of Tom, but hopefully Ms. Cook has sufficient assets and insurance to make sure the children (and Mrs. Palermo) have the educational and quality-of-life opportunities that they would have had with their father's support.

This really wasn't a "bicycle issue" - hopefully people (the bigger community than just cyclists) will recognize that. This women (and many like her) are ticking time bombs. This time it was a cyclist, but based on history far more people in automobiles will die because of drivers like Ms. Cook. If everyone takes this to heart and thinks "could have been me whether I cycle or not" then maybe things will change. Very sad that Tom Palermo has paid the price for that, but hopefully this could be another of his legacies.

I hoped those charged with enforcing the law would do their jobs without outside influence - church or public - and apply the law based on the facts. Looks like that has happened. Still a long way to go for the Palermo family ... and that is very sad.

I agree.

I know that nothing that can happen at this point can bring Tom back to his loved ones........that said I'd love to see a law suit against those that helped cover up her problem so that she could go on to kill. Cook was the killer but she had help.

dave

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 01:22 PM

Having said that, you frankly don't know whether she got preferential treatment in the 2010 DUI. And assuming she did, you don't know whether it was solicited by her or the church, or just SOP for the police/judicial system in that locale.

. . . but I have to disagree. If someone is wealthy and has bought and sold companies, then they have the ability to hire the best legal expertise and play our justice system for all it's worth and get off on things like this. Same for those who have friends with the cash and strings to pull. If they do NOT have the cash or the connections, or happen to be the wrong color, then they get a public defender and get jail time.

Can I give you stats? No. But I can give you 30 years of journalism experience and watching so many cases like this that go exactly that way. I go with the percentages. She got sweetheart treatment in 2010. $300 fine and probation? Come ON . . . :crap:

Wise up, for Pete's sake.

BBD

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 01:29 PM

This one's from yesterday, before charges were announced:

https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/08/boys-latin-students-were-first-to-stop-to-help-injured-cyclist-palermo/

Here's their post press conference story today:

https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/09/episcopal-bishop-to-be-charged-with-dui-manslaughter-and-leaving-scene-of-accident/

I hope they get a booking mug of her released soon. I'm getting real tired of looking at her grin.

BBD

pmac

01-09-2015, 01:33 PM

I've followed this sad story but have been reluctant to write anything. It seemed unclear to me if the church was at fault, since forgiveness is important and no one should be cast out of society for one mistake (this of course includes all the less fortunate/connected/powerful people who have been locked up for far less). I have to say though that it was a huge mistake (the earlier DUI), since who knows how many pedestrians or cyclists she could have run down while not noticing she was driving on a rim with a shredded tire. A big question to me was whether she had reformed and I didn't see anything obvious to say one way or another. But that's something I would absolutely expect the church to monitor and be concerned about, to make sure that they had made the right decision and to acknowledge responsibility for that decision.

Now knowing that she was drunk again, I think the signs must have been there for the church to see. I think they - and I'm specifically referring to the higher ups who knew about he earlier DUI, and should have been monitoring her future behavior - have a very heavy responsibility. If that were me, I'd be having a very hard time sleeping at night, much less mounting any sort of effort to excuse or defend my actions.

Even though I now put the church leaders in almost the same category as Rev Cook, I don't think it's in any way fair to apply this to all Episcopalian church members. If you've followed the education fund to Palermo's kids, there are many contributors who self-identify as Episcopalian reverends or church members who seem to be just as sad and angry as the rest of us.

merlinmurph

01-09-2015, 01:36 PM

This really wasn't a "bicycle issue" - hopefully people (the bigger community than just cyclists) will recognize that.

Very good point, and I hope others realize that.

Kevan

01-09-2015, 01:44 PM

Small wonder it took so long to put all these charges together.

Now let's see how 'Person of God' she's going to be when she is asked how she pleads.

slidey

01-09-2015, 01:44 PM

If they do NOT have the cash or the connections, or happen to be the wrong color, then they get a public defender and get jail time.

This is what drives me up the wall so much about this case, coming right on the backs of other high profile cases more recently.

$300 fine and probation? Come ON . . . :crap:
Two years back, I was attested $300 for a speeding ticket+traffic school (75 in 65 zone, first offense - minor infraction) in CA. :butt:

texbike

01-09-2015, 01:45 PM

Even though I now put the church leaders in almost the same category as Rev Cook, I don't think it's in any way fair to apply this to all Episcopalian church members. If you've followed the education fund to Palermo's kids, there are many contributors who self-identify as Episcopalian reverends or church members who seem to be just as sad and angry as the rest of us.

I think the anger expressed has been directed at the specific person and those that have helped cover up Cook's 1st major offense and then shield her from the fallout of this event. There's also of course the frustration of perceived equal justice given a person's stature in the community.

However, I don't believe that anyone here has expressed condemnation of Episcopalians or any religious group in general.

Texbike

texbike

01-09-2015, 01:49 PM

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 01:53 PM

. . . then it's exactly my point. Yours was $300 fine for just speeding. Look at all the extra stuff she did in that 2010 incident--and got $300 and probation.

Also, I wonder . . .

� How fast does the body metabolize alcohol? The DA says she blew a .22 at the station an hour after the collision. Assuming for the moment she WAS drunk when she hit him (rather than running home and guzzling), what could her true BAC have been when she actually hit him? I think Tom has already observed that in 45 minutes she would have had to drink 8 shots to get that soused at her place before driving back to the scene. Which brings up my next question . . .

� How could she even steer a vehicle at .22? Or the assumed higher percentage she must have been at while driving? Would this fact alone indicate she was a long term, functioning alcoholic? Does someone else here have the expertise to comment, because I don't.

BBD

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 01:55 PM

So here's another question - If her BAC was found to be .22, why was she not arrested, booked, and held at that time for DUI instead of allowing her to be driven home by one of the executive members of the Diocese?

Texbike

She's a well-known local figure of high social position? She's the "right" color?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .

BBD

AngryScientist

01-09-2015, 02:04 PM

� How could she even steer a vehicle at .22? Or the assumed higher percentage she must have been at while driving? Would this fact alone indicate she was a long term, functioning alcoholic? Does someone else here have the expertise to comment, because I don't.

a seasoned drinker can get behind a wheel and make it home 95% of the time without incident with a BAC much higher than that. driving a car is a lot about muscle memory and executing a routine task. just like when you're getting hammered you can still find a way to get the bottle up to your mouth, driving a car is pretty easy. doesnt mean you have things under control, just that you can perform the function. it all works out OK until something goes wrong...

SamIAm

01-09-2015, 02:04 PM

. . . but I have to disagree. If someone is wealthy and has bought and sold companies, then they have the ability to hire the best legal expertise and play our justice system for all it's worth and get off on things like this. Same for those who have friends with the cash and strings to pull. If they do NOT have the cash or the connections, or happen to be the wrong color, then they get a public defender and get jail time.

Can I give you stats? No. But I can give you 30 years of journalism experience and watching so many cases like this that go exactly that way. I go with the percentages. She got sweetheart treatment in 2010. $300 fine and probation? Come ON . . . :crap:

Wise up, for Pete's sake.

BBD

If you read my post, you would have read.

"She certainly got off way too easy, but I know several locals who have paid a good lawyer and received similarly light punishment. I think the preferential outcome finds its roots more in the ability to afford the right defense and not being apart of the underclass. True Christians are guided by God's mandate for equal justice and would work to change any system that did not dispense it. They would also never take advantage of such a corrupt system for their benefit."

You lack wisdom for now, because you are too full of emotion. But it will come to you with time.

By the way I am delighted that it looks like she will receive justice this time around.

Louis

01-09-2015, 02:05 PM

She's a well-known local figure of high social position? She's the "right" color?

As opposed to say, how the Cleveland police dealt with Tamir Rice's sister when she attempted to rush to his side, but they handcuff her then callously stood by and did nothing as he lay bleeding on the ground?

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/01/extended_tamir_rice_shooting_v.html

The girl, who was at the park with Tamir, ran to her brother's side when she heard two gunshots fired by first-year Cleveland police officer Timothy Loehmann.

As the girl neared her brother, Loehmann's partner, Frank Garmback confronted her and forced her to the ground. Loehmann rushed over, and the two knelt beside her as she rolled on the ground. Eventually the officers handcuffed the girl and placed her in the back of the police cruiser, less than 10 feet from her dying brother.

Officers then stood around Tamir as he lay wounded. One officer had his hands on his hips when a man, identified by police as an FBI agent who was in the neighborhood, entered the frame and administered first aid. It was the first medical care the boy received in the four minutes that followed the shooting.

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 02:09 PM

a seasoned drinker can get behind a wheel and make it home 95% of the time without incident with a BAC much higher than that.While texting????????:confused:

I don't buy the cop out that she could have run home and got swarshed to the tune of blowing a 0.22 within 20 minutes. It's possible, I 'sppose, but it takes some extraordinary 'intention' to do that that a jury won't buy...IMO...

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 02:10 PM

Oops - double post....:eek:

SamIAm

01-09-2015, 02:10 PM

They're going to say that she was totally sober, went back to her home and had a drink while she was in shock.

This worries me.

Out of curiosity, how do they prove texting while driving? Does the phone itself keep a record of time stamped keystrokes even before you hit send?

alancw3

01-09-2015, 02:14 PM

i just hope that the legal system will not be influenced by the episcopal church AGAIN on this one. someone needs to step up to the plate here and prosecute the person who did this. i can only hope but in reality i don't think so. political pressure (the episcopal church) will prevail unfortunately and the person will again get away with a crime in this case murder. so so sad for our society.

unfortunately my original post way back looks like it will prove true.. believe me i have been there.

Louis

01-09-2015, 02:15 PM

They're going to say that she was totally sober, went back to her home and had a drink while she was in shock.

The cops should be able to figure out where she was before she got in the car and hit Tom - hopefully they'll be able to get people to testify that she was drinking before she hit him. (Unless she was drinking alone at home.)

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 02:18 PM

Then I guess we'll see if she stands up to really take responsibility. Similarly, we'll see if those in the church hierarchy who enabled her behavior also stand up to prove their "true" Christianity by taking responsibility. But let's just say I'm not betting either of those will happen, based on their behavior so far. Hopefully parishioners and other will stand up and find out who they are and make sure this cannot happen again.

Being part of the "underclass" unavoidably too often goes right along with not having the funds to afford to maneuver in our legal system. If you can't see that, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And it's nice to know you are so wise--at least at knowing how to sound so condescending.

:rolleyes:

BBD

If you read my post, you would have read.

"She certainly got off way too easy, but I know several locals who have paid a good lawyer and received similarly light punishment. I think the preferential outcome finds its roots more in the ability to afford the right defense and not being apart of the underclass. True Christians are guided by God's mandate for equal justice and would work to change any system that did not dispense it. They would also never take advantage of such a corrupt system for their benefit."

You lack wisdom for now, because you are too full of emotion. But it will come to you with time.

By the way I am delighted that it looks like she will receive justice this time around.

west_jay

01-09-2015, 02:19 PM

So here's another question - If her BAC was found to be .22, why was she not arrested, booked, and held at that time for DUI instead of allowing her to be driven home by one of the executive members of the Diocese?

Texbike

Maybe it had something to with official transfer of authority...

"Mosby, who took over the State's Attorney's office this week and was just sworn in Thursday night, announced the charges at a packed news conference on Friday morning. The charges come after days of angst among supporters of the 41-year-old Palermo's family, who questioned why Cook had not been more promptly arrested.

Mosby said there was nothing out the ordinary in the way the case was handled.

"We had to conduct a thorough investigation," Mosby said. "What the police was able to do was rather expeditious."

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/830/article/p2p-82497994/

sitzmark

01-09-2015, 02:26 PM

Is the corollary to that, that it would have been OK not to have monitored her every movement so long as they hadn't promoted her? If an employer knows of a personal issue with one of its employees, is management (or the next senior manager) responsible for that employee's private life? If so, get ready for mass firings.

Ms. Cook to blame ... fully.

Now knowing that she was drunk again, I think the signs must have been there for the church to see. I think they - and I'm specifically referring to the higher ups who knew about he earlier DUI, and should have been monitoring her future behavior - have a very heavy responsibility. If that were me, I'd be having a very hard time sleeping at night, much less mounting any sort of effort to excuse or defend my actions.

josephr

01-09-2015, 02:27 PM

Then I guess we'll see if she stands up to really take responsibility. Similarly, we'll see if those in the church hierarchy who enabled her behavior also stand up to prove their "true" Christianity by taking responsibility.

I'd have a hard time saying the church was 'enabling' the situation...its not like they said it was 'ok'....Episcopalians are all about forgiveness and reconciliation. However, I doubt even they'd be able to continue her in a role of leadership after this. In a way, the best thing for the church would be a legal conviction/incarceration as they can discontinue her employment based on her unavailability. It makes it a clean cut for them -- they're wrestling with ways to get rid of her, no doubt.

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 02:41 PM

. . . on what the legal definition of "enabling" is.

Personally, I wouldn't call it enabling if they knew of her drinking off duty and could prove they tried to help her quit. Or had put her on probation or given her clear instructions to go get help. Maybe you could make an argument that she was such a well known local public figure--readily identifiable by a majority of local citizens even when she is not in robes--that she is effectively "on duty" 24/7, but not sure.

But if they deliberately hid her 2010 incident from voters to help her get bishop status? If they demonstrably knew of her continued drinking and did nothing? Particularly if it was on the job in conjunction with weddings, etc.? That would seem to me to be pretty damning. They certainly can't claim at this point they had no knowledge of her drinking after what's been revealed about the 2010 incident and subsequent election.

But what do I know . . . I'm just all emotional right now. ;)

BBD

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 02:44 PM

I'd have a hard time saying the church was 'enabling' the situation...its not like they said it was 'ok'....Episcopalians are all about forgiveness and reconciliation. However, I doubt even they'd be able to continue her in a role of leadership after this. In a way, the best thing for the church would be a legal conviction/incarceration as they can discontinue her employment based on her unavailability. It makes it a clean cut for them -- they're wrestling with ways to get rid of her, no doubt.I have heard that some of the clergy who were upset at not originally having been apprised of the Right Rev. Cook's prior 'probation without judgement' consider that to be enabling that led to her present condition. :rolleyes:
But if they deliberately hid her 2010 incident from voters to help her get bishop status? BBD
My opinion: Enabling? Yes. Deliberately? Who knows?

Steve D

01-09-2015, 02:49 PM

They're going to say that she was totally sober, went back to her home and had a drink while she was in shock.

Can't imagine a jury falling for this one, especially after reading this (http://m.christianpost.com/news/heather-cook-isnt-the-first-high-ranking-episcopal-bishop-who-struggled-with-alcohol-but-she-could-be-first-to-pay-after-cyclists-death-132246/) about her 2010 arrest, "Although Cook told the officer that she had only downed "a few drinks" a blood alcohol level chart provided by duidrivinglaws.org indicate that she would have had to consume well over nine alcoholic drinks to be considered legally drunk based on her weight, which was recorded as 250 pounds at the time of her arrest, as indicated in the chart below".

By the way, the chart only goes up to 240 pounds and shows that 9 drinks would bring the Blood Alcohol Level to 0.121 -- can't imagine how many drinks she would have had to consume in order to hit 0.27 in 2010, or 0.22 when she killed Tom a week ago!

sc53

01-09-2015, 02:54 PM

This worries me.

Out of curiosity, how do they prove texting while driving? Does the phone itself keep a record of time stamped keystrokes even before you hit send?

Previous news reports said she told the investigating officer she was texting. Also your phone will preserve the evidence as well.

abalone

01-09-2015, 03:00 PM

I'd have a hard time saying the church was 'enabling' the situation...its not like they said it was 'ok'....Episcopalians are all about forgiveness and reconciliation. However, I doubt even they'd be able to continue her in a role of leadership after this. In a way, the best thing for the church would be a legal conviction/incarceration as they can discontinue her employment based on her unavailability. It makes it a clean cut for them -- they're wrestling with ways to get rid of her, no doubt.

It's all over the Internet. Somebody also already posted some links to the Baltimore Sun and other news outlets, as well as TV news. The very church, and it's voting clergy, have already expressed shock and disbelief that they were never informed of her prior history of drunk driving and other drug related charges. They have even gone further and stated that many of them would not have voted for her to become Maryland's 1st ever female bishop. They also offer some criticism that their church had possibly enabled her now obvious chronic alcoholic abuse. While you might not want to believe that her church enabled her alcoholism, the evidence and statements coming out from the media seem to suggest otherwise.

josephr

01-09-2015, 03:05 PM

I have heard that some of the clergy who were upset at not originally having been apprised of the Right Rev. Cook's prior 'probation without judgement' consider that to be enabling that led to her present condition. :rolleyes:

My opinion: Enabling? Yes. Deliberately? Who knows?

again...back to the forgiveness/reconciliation thing. a good friend of mine won't step foot in a Catholic church again after a priest told her she was going to hell for divorcing her drunkard, philandering husband. :eek:

no doubt the whole debacle is an embarrassment to the Bishop and the entire Episcopal Diocese...but to disclose that information isn't typical discourse in the election process. Its up to the Bishop to complete the vetting process and make a recommendation. Its not really feasible to ask a very large group of people to review every minute detail. There's plenty of 20/20 hindsight here....but, just because one person screws up doesn't require a policy change on behalf of the church.

Was she seeking assistance through AA or was that part of the deal that she stay on the wagon? Maybe he just took her for her word? Either way, her lies have caught up to her...I can't see exactly how that lays out the church's culpability.

Its definitely an interesting discussion for them and I'm certain they're taking it all very seriously...anyway....I'll go back to just reading the thread. :)

Aaron O

01-09-2015, 03:21 PM

again...back to the forgiveness/reconciliation thing. a good friend of mine won't step foot in a Catholic church again after a priest told her she was going to hell for divorcing her drunkard, philandering husband. :eek:

no doubt the whole debacle is an embarrassment to the Bishop and the entire Episcopal Diocese...but to disclose that information isn't typical discourse in the election process. Its up to the Bishop to complete the vetting process and make a recommendation. Its not really feasible to ask a very large group of people to review every minute detail. There's plenty of 20/20 hindsight here....but, just because one person screws up doesn't require a policy change on behalf of the church.

Was she seeking assistance through AA or was that part of the deal that she stay on the wagon? Maybe he just took her for her word? Either way, her lies have caught up to her...I can't see exactly how that lays out the church's culpability.

Its definitely an interesting discussion for them and I'm certain they're taking it all very seriously...anyway....I'll go back to just reading the thread. :)
+1

I'm a Jewish atheist with no special love of organized religion and I probably have fewer than 20 drinks in a year. Drunk drivers scare me as much as any of you and I'm hardly an apologist for them.

That said, alcoholism is a life long struggle for a LOT of people. I have no interest in making excuses for her, but I also think laying blame at this church for hiring her because she had one arrest in 2010 is pushing it. I found some of the comments from their church leaders to be lacking in sensitivity, but attacking them for hiring the woman? Aren't we supposed to be a country of opportunity? If she struggled with addiction and had, for a time, overcome that challenge, is no one supposed to hire her again?

It's not this church's job to discipline her for addictions that she may have beaten when she was hired. It is society's job to enforce these laws. Isn't the christian religion one founded on forgiveness of sin? Isn't there a parable about a thief on the cross who atones and is welcome by God? The problem here is that a drunk killed someone...I don't see what the employer did wrong (besides make some stupid comments).

I wasn't part of the selection process, I don't know why she was hired...and I find it hard to cast aspersions on the church for hiring her without knowing anything about their decision making tree.

I do think that if you're convicted of DUI, your auto should be auto-fitted with a breathalyzer for no fewer than 10 years. We have a right to protect ourselves from these people.

BumbleBeeDave

01-09-2015, 04:50 PM

. . . but I don't think many will dispute that they are in a giant pile of public relations poo-poo right now, and for some time to come. :eek:

BBD

Louis

01-09-2015, 04:55 PM

. . . but I don't think many will dispute that they are in a giant pile of public relations poo-poo right now, and for some time to come. :eek:

It's even on the BBC web site:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30751469

Climb01742

01-09-2015, 05:34 PM

It's even on the BBC web site:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30751469

It's interesting that the BBC article calls it a hit-and-run in its headline and first sentence, and only mid-way gives the church's spin, essentially labeled as such, that she left and returned to, cough, cough, face her responsibilities. Guess their spin has spun to a stand still.

slidey

01-09-2015, 05:37 PM

I don't think you need to rely on that specific feature of a phone (not sure if it exists in the format you specify).

If the driver in question is seen in a vehicle at a specific time, and the source/destination of the driver are known then its easy to pin down an average estimate of time interval the driver would have been in the car. Any outgoing phone logs generated in the time interval can be safely assumed to have been done while driving. If any of those phone logs are texts, well then the driver was texting while driving.

If source/destination are unknown, then given the location where the driver was spotted in the vehicle a safe estimate can be reached using the knowledge of roadways to say where could this person most reasonably have been leaving from and going to. Of course this is not very useful information since on a highway you'd be only able to say that a person was driving at most for 3 minutes (1 min to start her car and get to an exit, 1 min to cover a mile , 1 min to take an exit and find a safe spot to park).

I believe the trick relies in determining the source/destination of the driver in Q, and then the rest is a solvable problem.

Out of curiosity, how do they prove texting while driving? Does the phone itself keep a record of time stamped keystrokes even before you hit send?

abalone

01-09-2015, 05:48 PM

It's even on the BBC web site:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30751469

It just made it to Fox News also.

Kevan

01-09-2015, 05:52 PM

Local news reports she's cozy warm, spending a night (maybe the weekend) in Baltimore's detention center.

SamIAm

01-09-2015, 05:59 PM

It's even on the BBC web site:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30751469

This statement is telling.

"The national Episcopal Church has also opened a separate investigation to determine whether Cook violated church law."

That should be a very short investigation.

dhalbrook

01-09-2015, 06:02 PM

Slidey, couldn't you triangulate against the cell towers that transmitted the texts to determine "texting velocity" to prove she was driving while sending them?

CSTRider

01-09-2015, 06:05 PM

First of all, my sincere condolences to the Palermo family on their terrible loss.

Have followed the many discussion points in this thread, including the debate about whether Heather Cook's church shared responsibility in this tragedy. My initial feeling was that i didn't see how the organization could be held responsible unless she was performing duties, or returning from duties, when the tragedy occurred.

Then I read this single, lone comment following the Baltimore Sun poll (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bal-charges-for-driver-who-struck-cyclist-poll-20150106-htmlstory.html) "Charges for driver who struck cyclist":

TheRaceRadio
Rank 5015
Testimony from a Facebook users upon hearing the news that Heather Cook killed Tom Palermo:

"In 1988 she was the Chaplin at my school and drive me and another student to a movie 45 minutes away. We were young, but could smell the alcohol and her driving was so scary and erratic. Honestly- we are lucky to be alive. She was so drunk and we were too scared to tell the school. After all-she was the Chaplin. Who would believe us? I am sick hearing this story. I feel guilt that maybe had I said something years ago the investigation could have started sooner. Maybe not, I just don't know. I have 3 kids if my own now and I grieve for this family. Not sure who I am reaching out to, but felt compelled to share." [sic]

The few who did not vote 'yes' obviously do not care about the safety of the children or other members of this community. Really shameful.

I'm no lawyer, but if this comment can be substantiated with witnesses in a civil case then it could help establish a 27+ year pattern of drinking and driving - and doing so while on duty and in a position of trust with the church. It would also beg the question of how Cook's organization could NOT have known they had a person in a position of trust who was an extreme danger to the community which she served.

Doug Fattic

01-09-2015, 06:16 PM

To my surprise this story was on my local South Bend, Indiana TV news this evening. They mentioned the details of her being a bishop, her way over the limit alcohol content, texting and leaving the scene. If I�m hearing about it here 600 miles away then that means this story has national implications to the parties involves. This broad attention means the church and the DA will be aware of what the general public will think of the decisions they make. That is real additional pressure.

I�ve always felt that the US is way too tolerant of drunk driving. This incident brings it to light. Somewhere in America's collective conscience is the idea that since I sometimes drink and drive I don�t want the book thrown at someone who does. Instead of a partially reduced fine the 1st time it could be maximum. I liked what one country did and immediately confiscated their car and took away their drivers license. Somewhere the argument could be made that if we were completely intolerant of drinking and driving with high enough penalties than Bishop Heather wouldn�t have had the opportunity to kill Tom after her 1st conviction. This must partly be related to our feeling that cars are essential to living in the Us. Of course my attitude is shaped by the fact I don�t drink at all. I would think the argument could be made that if one thinks the church is partially responsible for giving the bishop a 2nd chance then to be consistent that society is partially responsible for giving her a 2nd chance too.

Peter P.

01-09-2015, 06:43 PM

Regarding the 0.22 BAC while still being able to drive:

I was a cop in the Air Force. We once had a guy blow right through the East Gate at our base when it was CLOSED (after 11PM). Drove right through the barrier bar blocking the road. I can't recall whether we heard the impact (the East Gate was across the street from the cop shop) but I was the desk sergeant on that shift when ALL the alarms from our closed SAC facility went off. We sent a patrol out there to see what was going on and found the driver, and his car, off the road; he'd hit a telephone pole to which all the alarm wires were attached. Once we brought him to the HQ, I blew him on the intoxilyzer and I he reached either 0.32 or higher-that gave me the record in our division!

Regarding the texting issues:

Your cell messages are not only stored on your phone until erased, but stored on your service provider's servers. If your phone's GPS is enabled, as your phone registers from cell site to cell site, the service provider's equipment is keeping a record of that as well. Thus they can piece together where you were, when, and compare that to the times texts were sent/received.

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 06:44 PM

To my surprise this story was on my local South Bend, Indiana TV news this evening. I'm not surprised at all. The Mother Lode: https://news.google.com/news/more?ncl=dfqJk_bpWwblhMMawKpWikMnD136M&authuser=0&ned=us&topic=h

Here's a very interesting response from the Episcopal Digital Network: http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2015/01/09/maryland-bishop-suffragan-faces-numerous-charges-in-fatal-accident/
Ironically, they have the most detailed description of the charges and their respective penalties of any news source I've seen.

Llewellyn

01-09-2015, 07:50 PM

Is there any way that something can be set up so that there are automatic updates on the forum as this thing moves through the courts, maybe some sort of link to a local paper? I'm sure many of us on here would like to follow the progress of this.

I'm not a computer person so I don't even know if this sort of thing is possible

Louis

01-09-2015, 07:58 PM

Ironically, they have the most detailed description of the charges and their respective penalties of any news source I've seen.

A distressingly high number of "x years and/or $5,000 fine" in there.

I assume that isn't a binary thing, either the time or the $, but rather a range of possibilities. Nevertheless, $5k on each count adds up to a paltry sum, should she only get the low end.

shovelhd

01-09-2015, 08:09 PM

I�ve always felt that the US is way too tolerant of drunk driving.

Which absolutely pales to the tolerance of texting and driving. It's not just tolerated, it's accepted.

shovelhd

01-09-2015, 08:11 PM

Earlier in the day, Baltimore City State�s Attorney Marilyn Mosby said at a news conference that charges had been filed in district court accusing Cook of four criminal charges. They include negligent manslaughter by vehicle (maximum penalty 10 years and/or $5,000 fine), criminal negligent manslaughter by vehicle (three years and/or $5,000 fine), negligently driving under the influence resulting in a homicide (five years and/or $5,000 fine) and negligent homicide involving an auto or boat while impaired (three years and/or $5,000 fine).

Cook also faces traffic charges of failing to remain at an accident resulting in death, failing to remain at the scene of an accident resulting in bodily injury, using a text messaging device while driving causing an accident with death or serious injury, and driving under the influence of alcohol.

Ms. Mosby, THANK YOU for throwing the book at this repeat offender.

elcolombiano

01-09-2015, 10:21 PM

OtayBW

01-09-2015, 10:31 PM

Check this out on Ms. Mosby. She is good. She is not a member of the old boys club covering for important people. I wish we had government attorneys like this in California. She threw the book at the Bishop.

http://www.marilynmosby.com
I just read her 'Meet Marilyn' and 'Policy' pages. Extremely impressive and I am usually not so easily impressed in such matters. Thanks for the link.

Grant McLean

01-09-2015, 10:44 PM

I'm not surprised at all. The Mother Lode: https://news.google.com/news/more?ncl=dfqJk_bpWwblhMMawKpWikMnD136M&authuser=0&ned=us&topic=h

Here's a very interesting response from the Episcopal Digital Network: http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2015/01/09/maryland-bishop-suffragan-faces-numerous-charges-in-fatal-accident/
Ironically, they have the most detailed description of the charges and their respective penalties of any news source I've seen.

It's interesting to see the choice of words in those headlines.

Note the two religious news websites, the Episcopal News, and the Anglican News,
chose the word "accident" in their headlines.

None of the other 50 stories on the Google news page use words to describe
the incident that also apply to tipping over a glass of milk.

-g

Louis

01-09-2015, 10:49 PM

It's now on the front page of the NYT web site:

"The Bishop, the Cyclist and a Death on the Road" (http://nyti.ms/1BPbQhy)

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/01/10/us/JP-BALTIMORE1/JP-BALTIMORE1-articleLarge.jpg

soulspinner

01-10-2015, 07:17 AM

The 1988 story about her being bombed with kids in the car tells she has long had an addiction and tell me someone who could not control her drinking driving children decades ago didn't have alcohol on her breath while around clergy. I smell enabling from here............

avalonracing

01-10-2015, 07:46 AM

I�ve always felt that the US is way too tolerant of drunk driving. This incident brings it to light. Somewhere in America's collective conscience is the idea that since I sometimes drink and drive I don�t want the book thrown at someone who does. Instead of a partially reduced fine the 1st time it could be maximum. I liked what one country did and immediately confiscated their car and took away their drivers license. Somewhere the argument could be made that if we were completely intolerant of drinking and driving with high enough penalties than Bishop Heather wouldn�t have had the opportunity to kill Tom after her 1st conviction. This must partly be related to our feeling that cars are essential to living in the Us. Of course my attitude is shaped by the fact I don�t drink at all.

Doug, you are not alone with this opinion as your thoughts are similar to what I wrote on a friend's FB page:

"Our bull�� DWI laws are also guilty of homicide. If you drive drunk you should lose your license and have court ordered treatment and testing to get it back. It's not just the alcohol industry that is against tougher laws. I believe that people are afraid to push for tougher DWI laws for that fear that one day they'll be pulled over after happy hour. We can't have it both ways, if we want things like this to not happen we need to enforce it. Would a stiff sentence, treatment and testing after her previous arrest have stopped Heather Cook from drinking? We don't know that... but we do know that she didn't and she killed someone."

I also do not drink, but when I say things like the above people feel like I'm just being intolerant of them getting their buzz on. I really do think that people would rather put up with people having their lives destroyed (as it always happens to "someone else") than not be able to have a couple of drinks and drive.

velomonkey

01-10-2015, 08:35 AM

Totally agree 100% with the sentiment that our laws aren't tough enough on drunk driving.

Our laws aren't tough enough on driving in general. People need to lose their license to drive and they just don't. If as this woman did: you blew a .27, you were driving on a flat so long you were on the rim, you had empty bottles in the car, weed and puke all over your shirt - YOU NEED TO LOSE YOUR LICENSE.

OtayBW

01-10-2015, 08:41 AM

Mug shot: http://www.anglicanink.com/article/bail-set-bishop-heather-cook

This has now also been picked up by the WSJ, NYT, USA Today and more. Interesting that it's now been documented that she did drive by the crime scene once before going to her home and then returning again after ~30 min.

Bail has been set at $2.5 million. Whatever you think about poor enforcement of drunk driving laws, she is in a little bit of deep chitz.

velomonkey

01-10-2015, 08:48 AM

You're such an &#%!@?!!!!!!!!!

malcolm

01-10-2015, 08:50 AM

+1

I'm a Jewish atheist with no special love of organized religion and I probably have fewer than 20 drinks in a year. Drunk drivers scare me as much as any of you and I'm hardly an apologist for them.

That said, alcoholism is a life long struggle for a LOT of people. I have no interest in making excuses for her, but I also think laying blame at this church for hiring her because she had one arrest in 2010 is pushing it. I found some of the comments from their church leaders to be lacking in sensitivity, but attacking them for hiring the woman? Aren't we supposed to be a country of opportunity? If she struggled with addiction and had, for a time, overcome that challenge, is no one supposed to hire her again?

It's not this church's job to discipline her for addictions that she may have beaten when she was hired. It is society's job to enforce these laws. Isn't the christian religion one founded on forgiveness of sin? Isn't there a parable about a thief on the cross who atones and is welcome by God? The problem here is that a drunk killed someone...I don't see what the employer did wrong (besides make some stupid comments).

I wasn't part of the selection process, I don't know why she was hired...and I find it hard to cast aspersions on the church for hiring her without knowing anything about their decision making tree.

I do think that if you're convicted of DUI, your auto should be auto-fitted with a breathalyzer for no fewer than 10 years. We have a right to protect ourselves from these people.

I completely agree with the sentiment but I think some of the subtleties are missing.
Her hiring included a vote in which her dui history was not disclosed.

She wasn't hired to just any position but the second highest leadership position in the Baltimore diocese. I would argue that religious leaders while being human should be held to a higher standard of behavior, just like I would expect from physicians, I hate to say it but also political leaders, I know epic fail. I wouldn't expect anyone to not be hired because of past substance problems but I think they need to be thoroughly vetted to make sure they are past and they also require the fullest of disclosures.

I'll also throw this aside out there. In a field where women have struggled for any leadership recognition she has been an absolute disgrace. Whether fair or not as a trail blazer you should expect higher scrutiny and a higher level of scorn when you fail to behave in a manner fitting the level to which you have risen. This woman has failed to deliver on multiple levels.

djdj

01-10-2015, 09:00 AM

How totally depraved she was to first drive off, then drive by again, without stopping to render aid, leaving Mr. Palermo to die.

So sad for his family.

malcolm

01-10-2015, 09:05 AM

Doug, you are not alone with this opinion as your thoughts are similar to what I wrote on a friend's FB page:

"Our bull�� DWI laws are also guilty of homicide. If you drive drunk you should lose your license and have court ordered treatment and testing to get it back. It's not just the alcohol industry that is against tougher laws. I believe that people are afraid to push for tougher DWI laws for that fear that one day they'll be pulled over after happy hour. We can't have it both ways, if we want things like this to not happen we need to enforce it. Would a stiff sentence, treatment and testing after her previous arrest have stopped Heather Cook from drinking? We don't know that... but we do know that she didn't and she killed someone."

I also do not drink, but when I say things like the above people feel like I'm just being intolerant of them getting their buzz on. I really do think that people would rather put up with people having their lives destroyed (as it always happens to "someone else") than not be able to have a couple of drinks and drive.

I also agree DUI laws should have more teeth and I do drink. Lets also not lose site of texting which many argue is more dangerous and pervasive than drinking and driving. I know many young people that grew up with madd and other anti drinking and driving programs would never consider driving after drinking if they drink at all, yet I bet the majority will text and drive in a flash.

Just a comment on blood alcohol levels. As a long time ER doc I don't even raise an eyebrow at .22, I saw higher than that on a daily basis. It was also amazing how tolerant people that drink excessively and daily become. I would see folks with similar levels and you wouldn't even know they were drunk, not saying they should drive just that they build a tolerance. You can never know how much was related to drinking and how much texting and it really doesn't matter I guess except I suspect while outrageous alone combined it's beyond description

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 09:21 AM

An important distinction bears on this case.

Alcoholism is a disease. And a damn hard one to beat.

But driving while drunk is a choice. Not a necessity but a selfish, dangerous and conscious choice. One she's apparently made repeatedly for possibly over 25 years. Including if the story is true, with children in the car.

In her current job, I'd bet she had many options for not driving. Church members could have offered rides, taxis, Uber, city buses. Yet she chose to drive herself. If you let others drive you, others are safe but your drinking is probably discovered. Drive yourself, others are in danger but maybe your drinking is secret.

In a position as high as hers was, there were options for transportation she or the church didn't deem necessary or provided enough cover for alcoholism.

And it's hard to believe blowing a .27 in 2010 and a .22 in December were isolated events. Commen sense says her colleagues knew. Yet no one in the church took her keys away and suggested or mandated treatment programs, and that she never drive drunk again? That kind of failure is enabling.

Already the sympathy and forgiveness cards are being played by the church. Human compassion rightly applies those to alcoholics. But are they truly right for an alcoholic who appears to have driven drunk most of her adult life? A disease drives her drinking, but she chose to drive herself and it's hard to believe that those around her didn't have countless chances to take away her keys.

Compassion and sympathy are noble qualities but they can't be used to excuse everything.

texbike

01-10-2015, 09:29 AM

david

01-10-2015, 09:36 AM

perhaps this has already been said in the previous 30 pages, but we should all send our support to Marilyn Mosby. i just tweeted her. will hit facebook also.

OtayBW

01-10-2015, 09:42 AM

perhaps this has already been said in the previous 30 pages, but we should all send our support to Marilyn Mosby. i just tweeted her. will hit facebook also.
I e-mailed her yesterday. She seems like one of the good ones.

jet sanchez

01-10-2015, 12:45 PM

Has anyone read her bio on the Diocese website? It seems that her family has had a LONG history in the Episcopalian clergy and especially in the Maryland Diocese.

http://episcopalmaryland.org/our-diocese/the-rev-canon-heather-e-cook/ .

Texbike

Yup, she's part of an "old boy's club", so to speak. I read somewhere yesterday that her father was an admitted alcoholic and that the church helped him see the light, yada yada yada, but that he'd had a relapse or two over the years. Enabling by the church would be hard to prove in a court of law but I'd expect the church to clean house once all of this is over.

Does the $2.5M bail seem a little high to anyone else? Is there a fear she'd run?

And as serious as the charges are I find the $5000 fine for negligent homicide laughable.

Let us not forget that this woman would never have come back to the scene, perhaps never even have been caught if it weren't for that one cyclist that chased her down. I'd like to shake his hand, maybe even give him a big hug.

makoti

01-10-2015, 12:59 PM

Does the $2.5M bail seem a little high to anyone else? Is there a fear she'd run?

For drunk texting murder? No, seems a bit low to me. I don't want her to go home. Sit & stew in it.

djdj

01-10-2015, 01:03 PM

Does the $2.5M bail seem a little high to anyone else? Is there a fear she'd run?

She ran once (or twice).

velomonkey

01-10-2015, 01:53 PM

For drunk texting murder? No, seems a bit low to me. I don't want her to go home. Sit & stew in it.

Agreed. By all indications she came back only because she knew she was busted. By every indication she didn't come back to accept responsibility.

abalone

01-10-2015, 02:33 PM

Agreed. By all indications she came back only because she knew she was busted. By every indication she didn't come back to accept responsibility.

There was one report somewhere that said that she even went home and called her boss at the church, another bishop. If so, that would make him a witness to the events, correct?

mcteague

01-10-2015, 02:50 PM

There was one report somewhere that said that she even went home and called her boss at the church, another bishop. If so, that would make him a witness to the events, correct?

She called and told him she thought she just hit a cyclist and "was in shock"! Anyone truly in shock would not be able to phone someone and say so IMO. So much of this story just makes my blood boil.

Tim

holliscx

01-10-2015, 02:57 PM

Whiskeypalian <Kanye shrug>

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 03:17 PM

Maybe it had something to with official transfer of authority...

"Mosby, who took over the State's Attorney's office this week and was just sworn in Thursday night, announced the charges at a packed news conference on Friday morning. The charges come after days of angst among supporters of the 41-year-old Palermo's family, who questioned why Cook had not been more promptly arrested.

Mosby said there was nothing out the ordinary in the way the case was handled.

"We had to conduct a thorough investigation," Mosby said. "What the police was able to do was rather expeditious."

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/830/article/p2p-82497994/

ding ding ding ding.

locally, the discussion is that officially charging her at the scene might have created complications when fully charging her later. She was taken to the police station, interviewed and released.

I understand, and participate in, the anger for this women and situation. I just think the tangents about religion, whether or not her employer should have promoted her after a prior DUI etc, it is good for gossip, but really not pertinent to the conversation. Quite a few folks are using this to grandstand against the church and the government, which is quite unproductive.

I am glad the SA has acted swiftly. Less than 24 hours into her new position and this was her top priority. They are hearing our voices, see our actions...be the examples we want them to see.

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 03:28 PM

one thought i had about why the authorities waited until friday to announce charges...

the outgoing state's attorney may have said to the new state's attorney, look, i'm leaving; you will have to see this case through court; you need to be comfortable with the charges you will have to prosecute; so you work with the police and on your first day, announce_your_charges for the case_you_feel most comfortable/confident taking to trial.

this conjecture gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, and maybe the request to wait came from the new state's attorney, so as outlined above, her first big, high profile case really would be_her_case. but marilyn mosby seems like the real deal and a first rate attorney, so maybe the delay in charging was for good, sound reasons?

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 03:33 PM

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 03:46 PM

I completely agree with the sentiment but I think some of the subtleties are missing.
Her hiring included a vote in which her dui history was not disclosed.

She wasn't hired to just any position but the second highest leadership position in the Baltimore diocese. I would argue that religious leaders while being human should be held to a higher standard of behavior, just like I would expect from physicians, I hate to say it but also political leaders, I know epic fail. I wouldn't expect anyone to not be hired because of past substance problems but I think they need to be thoroughly vetted to make sure they are past and they also require the fullest of disclosures.

I'll also throw this aside out there. In a field where women have struggled for any leadership recognition she has been an absolute disgrace. Whether fair or not as a trail blazer you should expect higher scrutiny and a higher level of scorn when you fail to behave in a manner fitting the level to which you have risen. This woman has failed to deliver on multiple levels.
Malcom, it's a terrific response and I understand where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree, but I do understand where you're coming from.

I don't hold religious leaders to professional standards - because they aren't professionals in the way that a doctor is a professional. People like attorneys, CPAs and physicians have a duty to society as a whole because their failure to perform their responsibilities affects society as a whole and undermines our system. I don't think religious leaders have that sort of impact. If a large number of priests perform poor work, they've really only hurt their denomination. Their work is not vital to the function of our secular society. At least not in the process sense. It very well might be that vital in the grander sense, but I'm not equipped for those kinds of judgements.

Many religious leaders don't have the education background for me to regard them as a professional. The professions have rigorous testing and certification procedures. I don't know anything about this branch, or what education requirements are typical for it, but I don't think many of the protestant branches have the demanding religious education and certification typical of CPAs, attorneys or MDs. That's a generalization obviously. A baptist friend has a father who was in a high level baptist leadership role - and he was among the brightest, most educated people I've met.

One arrest for alcohol would likely not prevent employment from MOST of the professions. I do think it would for an MD, but there are a lot of attorneys with a DUI on record. If the HR department decided to live with the DUI, would they necessarily give that information to the hiring manager? I think it depends. Not always. So even by professional standards, which I don't think apply to religious leaders, I'm not sure the process is really unreasonable.

As far as politicians...I think it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in that field, just like it takes a certain personality to be a pro-athlete. The very things that are needed to do that job might disqualify the person that you want. I couldn't be a politician...I'm not wired for it. I wouldn't want that pressure. I usually vote for the person most likely to support positions I agree with...character is really less of an issue for me.

I want someone who is going to be somewhat open minded and have a group of people that will engage in debate before the decision making process. I prefer not seeing demagogues, or people who are true believers. I think the job requires flexibility...and those who are best at it adapt as needed. Nixon and China, Jefferson and the Louisiana purchase.

I don't know why she was chosen, or what she brought to the table. I do think it's very possible that a decent, bright person with a lot to offer can suffer from a disease that reoccurred after she was hired. I also think it's very possible that ANYONE, religious or otherwise, might panic when confronted with a mistake like that (particularly after a long struggle with addiction). Religious leader or not...she's still a human. We're a fallible lot.

Yes - we should demand better from leaders, and we should expect better behavior from one another - but I'm not sure anyone can really be expected to know a disease may reoccur, or that they'd have a moment of weakness. I don't think we really know what anyone else is capable of until the chips are down.

She is clearly a failure by her own standards, and made a monumental error. She should be punished. I'm just not ready to condemn her church when I honestly don't believe you can ever really know what might happen in the future. If she was an attorney, would we be blaming her firm for promoting her to partner? I don't think so.

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 03:49 PM

I understand, and participate in, the anger for this women and situation. I just think the tangents about religion, whether or not her employer should have promoted her after a prior DUI etc, it is good for gossip, but really not pertinent to the conversation. Quite a few folks are using this to grandstand against the church and the government, which is quite unproductive.

we disagree here. i think it's an essential part of the story. my beliefs have nothing to do with 'grandstanding' as you dismissively describe it. her standing in the church played some part, perhaps significant parts, in how she was treated this time and probably in her 2010 DUI. and she recently gave a sermon about how in society people aren't held accountable for their actions, so in the pulpit she talks one talk, yet in life walks another walk. and even church members themselves are angry and feel betrayed that the church didn't disclose her DIU when they voted on her new position. the church is an inescapable part of this story. you may not like that but fair minded people can see these things differently but to use your word, it's 'unproductive' to pejoratively dismiss the raising of different opinions. diminishing another's POV isn't a refutation of that POV.

nahtnoj

01-10-2015, 03:50 PM

I imagine you posted this before the texting and BAC info came out.

But if she was on her way to/from church business where she was consuming alcohol, or texting about church business, then they are absolutely culpable.

Edit - I trimmed too much of the quote. This post is a brief explanation (endorsed by my attorney wife) of a handful of circumstances where the (soon to be former) Bishop's actions could be tied directly to the Church, making them legally culpable.

I'm clear on why the Episcopal Church bears responsibility for not immediately removing this "bishop" permanently from leadership.

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 04:07 PM

I don't know what you specifically said about religion, and I won't wade through 30 pages of conjecture to find out.

I will ask, what role did the church or religion play in her hitting Tom?

All you have done is articulate her hypocrisy which I agree with, but what does that have to do with the accident? The fact is most people who would do something like she did would likely advise their kids to do the opposite...she is not unique in that respect. But, frankly, nothing you wrote is pertinent to her hitting Tom.

Should she have be treated more harshly in 2010, in hindsight, yes. But, if your daughter went to a happy hour, got a DUI, how many years would you want her driving privileges revoked? Should she get kicked out of college, law school, military. For how many years would you want her employer to pass her over for promotions, laterals, jobs because of it? With the benefit of hindsight, we think we have clarity, but what we have is our perspective of clarity. In real time, in real life, all of our perspectives change.

I respect what you have to say, but in the end, it doesn't matter what you say or what I say.

we disagree here. i think it's an essential part of the story. my beliefs have nothing to do with 'grandstanding' as you dismissively describe it. her standing in the church played some part, perhaps significant parts, in how she was treated this time and probably in her 2010 DUI. and she recently gave a sermon about how in society people aren't held accountable for their actions, so in the pulpit she talks one talk, yet in life walks another walk. and even church members themselves are angry and feel betrayed that the church didn't disclose her DIU when they voted on her new position. the church is an inescapable part of this story. you may not like that but fair minded people can see these things differently but to use your word, it's 'unproductive' to pejoratively dismiss the raising of different opinions. diminishing another's POV isn't a refutation of that POV.

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 04:13 PM

I imagine you posted this before the texting and BAC info came out.

But if she was on her way to/from church business where she was consuming alcohol, or texting about church business, then they are absolutely culpable.

If you go to a work function (Christmas party) and you get a DUI, is it your employers responsibility or yours because you drank too much? If you get a work text, and you respond, is that your employers fault or yours for making a bad decision?

I think I am just confused because people are treating the church differently than they would other employers.

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 04:17 PM

If you go to a work function (Christmas party) and you get a DUI, is it your employers responsibility or yours because you drank too much? If you get a work text, and you respond, is that your employers fault or yours for making a bad decision?

I think I am just confused because people are treating the church differently than they would other employers.

Actually in my state, if the work provider serves alcohol at the function, they almost definitely do bare liability for the DUI victims. Dram shop laws - strict liability for serving alcohol. Some states also have social host liability.

Has it been established that her church served alcohol? That would definitely change my opinion about things.

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 04:28 PM

Actually in my state, if the work provider serves alcohol at the function, they almost definitely do bare liability for the DUI victims. Dram shop laws - strict liability for serving alcohol. Some states also have social host liability.

Has it been established that her church served alcohol? That would definitely change my opinion about things.

No, that was just a discussion item brought up. I am not an attorney, but isn't Dram Shop Laws for bars and taverns?

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 04:37 PM

No, that was just a discussion item brought up. I am not an attorney, but isn't Dram Shop Laws for bars and taverns?

The principles are also usually found to apply to work events where the employer sponsors the party. There are variations among the states.

Until it's established that the church in some way furnished the alcohol, or had some tie to her consumption, I'm not sure it's worth speculating about.

rwsaunders

01-10-2015, 04:48 PM

If you go to a work function (Christmas party) and you get a DUI, is it your employers responsibility or yours because you drank too much? If you get a work text, and you respond, is that your employers fault or yours for making a bad decision?

I think I am just confused because people are treating the church differently than they would other employers.

If you serve alcohol at a company sponsored event, an employer can be held accountable for their employee's actions if alcohol is found to be related to an incident. Our insurance underwriter reminds us all of the time that we are most at risk when our employees are driving for business purposes, and our insurance coverage addresses this issue. To help mitigate this risk, we require our employees to agree to a driving background check, in order to uncover any history of traffic violations or insurance claims.

SamIAm

01-10-2015, 04:49 PM

we disagree here. i think it's an essential part of the story. my beliefs have nothing to do with 'grandstanding' as you dismissively describe it. her standing in the church played some part, perhaps significant parts, in how she was treated this time and probably in her 2010 DUI. and she recently gave a sermon about how in society people aren't held accountable for their actions, so in the pulpit she talks one talk, yet in life walks another walk. and even church members themselves are angry and feel betrayed that the church didn't disclose her DIU when they voted on her new position. the church is an inescapable part of this story. you may not like that but fair minded people can see these things differently but to use your word, it's 'unproductive' to pejoratively dismiss the raising of different opinions. diminishing another's POV isn't a refutation of that POV.

You write out of emotion and possibly agenda, but most of what you write is just pure speculation and really not pertinent and certainly not proven. This is about one woman's very poor judgment at this point not the church.

SamIAm

01-10-2015, 04:53 PM

But if she was on her way to/from church business where she was consuming alcohol, or texting about church business, then they are absolutely culpable.

No disrespect to your wife, but this is just plain wrong. My employer is not responsible for my unlawful operation of my vehicle except in a very narrow range of professions bishop not being one of them.

OtayBW

01-10-2015, 04:53 PM

I don't know what you specifically said about religion, and I won't wade through 30 pages of conjecture to find out.

30 pages of conjecture? Holy cow.

SamIAm

01-10-2015, 04:58 PM

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 05:13 PM

You write out of emotion and possibly agenda, but most of what you write is just pure speculation and really not pertinent and certainly not proven. This is about one woman's very poor judgment at this point not the church.

So you're the judge of what's pertinent? You're the judge of what is fair opinion and what is 'agenda'? And what is logic and what is 'emotion'? Who knew?

LegendRider

01-10-2015, 05:16 PM

http://www.anglicanink.com/article/former-bishop-maryland-calls-heather-cook-resign

R3awak3n

01-10-2015, 05:18 PM

I hired a ex-con 15 years ago. He had served time for attempted murder. He has been a great employee and I have promoted him several times.

If he were to attempt to kill again, is that on me and my business?

No.

Some people deserve a second chance.

This lady was given a second chance and she screwed it all up even worse. Like it has been said, obviously her punishment for the DUI 4 years ago was not enough and she did not learn anything from it.

I am glad that all this new information has surfaced, the texting, the DUI, etc. Some say she wont do much time and that is probably true but it looks like they are making an example of this one.

nighthawk

01-10-2015, 05:23 PM

...

rwsaunders

01-10-2015, 05:24 PM

I hired a ex-con 15 years ago. He had served time for attempted murder. He has been a great employee and I have promoted him several times.

If he were to attempt to kill again, is that on me and my business?

You should notify your insurance underwriter if you employ an individual with a criminal background. You cannot ignore an applicant's criminal histories, as some state and federal laws bar some felons from certain jobs in banking, security or education for example. We have been informed that we risk a lawsuit if we hire an ex-offender who harms or steals from a fellow employee or client. Not my rules but an issue nonetheless.

avalonracing

01-10-2015, 05:32 PM

Should she have be treated more harshly in 2010, in hindsight, yes. But, if your daughter went to a happy hour, got a DUI, how many years would you want her driving privileges revoked?

If someone gets a DUI they should have their driving privileges revoked AND be required to seek treatment/education AND be tested to get it back. Will this stop SOME people from drinking and driving? Yes. Can it help some alcoholics/addicts with their dependency? Maybe.
But will a slap on the wrist and the comfort knowing that a "good" lawyer can get you off the hook continue to do nothing for the problem? Absolutely.

elcolombiano

01-10-2015, 05:37 PM

They now list her home address here.

https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/09/bishop-heather-cooks-bail-set-at-2-5-million/

She lives 4 miles from where I grew up. Its a small world, kind of scary.

nahtnoj

01-10-2015, 05:49 PM

If you go to a work function (Christmas party) and you get a DUI, is it your employers responsibility or yours because you drank too much? If you get a work text, and you respond, is that your employers fault or yours for making a bad decision?

This isn't about a DUI. Its about civil liability for wrongful death.

If this hypothetical party attendee (lets call her HK) kills someone on the drive home, and that person's family's attorney starts deposing party attendees, and it becomes clear that:

a. Everyone at the party knew that HK had a drinking problem
b. Event organizers served HK alcohol at the party
c. HK was observed to be severely intoxicated and nothing was done to stop her from driving

The organizer of that event is going to have problems. I'm not saying this is exactly what happened here, but trust me, *considerable* investigative resources are going to be devoted to establishing a nexus between her and the church.

nahtnoj

01-10-2015, 05:57 PM

No disrespect to your wife, but this is just plain wrong. My employer is not responsible for my unlawful operation of my vehicle except in a very narrow range of professions bishop not being one of them.

And no disrespect to you, but the fact that you're looking at this in terms of lawfulness and not civil liability tells me you might be a little out of your element.

jr59

01-10-2015, 06:08 PM

rugbysecondrow

01-10-2015, 06:11 PM

30 pages of conjecture? Holy cow.

Conjecture: an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

My man, if that isn't an apt description then I don't know what is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 06:18 PM

There is a lot of speculation going on in this thread. To many facts are not present for this type of talk. That and laws are different in each state regarding alcohol liability. Either civil or criminal.

I feel sorry for Tom's friends and family, but I will sit back and wait to see the facts come out before I pass judgement.

I do think some very good legal minds are going to make a reasonable amount of billable hours on this one.

Exactly. None of us no why she was hired, or what various people knew (or should have known). The sad truth is that I'm quite sure that she's not the only alcoholic in a position of authority/responsability, and I'm loathe to start pointing fingers without a lot more knowledge.

What we know is that this woman was legally drunk, with a .22 bac level. Her behavior was reprehensible and inconsistent with any religious or moral code that I'm familiar with. She negligently killed a man we all care about. All of us are in some way also afraid knowing this could happen to any of us, on a bike or in a car. I think we all want blood and we all share a sense of profound moral outrage and sadness for tom and his family.

Punishing her won't bring Tom back - but I'm glad to see she seems to be seeing appropriate consequences for her gross behavior.

I also found the comments by her church infuriating, although I suspect that as a tight knit community, it was probably less malevolent in intent than our inferences suggest. They were likely just supporting a black sheep family member, as we'd do for those we care about.

slidey

01-10-2015, 06:33 PM

Punishing her won't bring Tom back - but I'm glad to see she seems to be seeing appropriate consequences for her gross behavior.

This is all I too care about now.

The view I'm hoping takes center stage is thus -
Punishing her won't bring Tom Palermo back, but not punishing her sets a precedent to the rest of the country that drinking+texting+driving over a person and killing them = OK*.

* depending on various socio-econo-religious factors that others have alluded to, and that have absolutely no place in the US judicial system (unless one's a native indian).

Louis

01-10-2015, 06:38 PM

Conjecture: an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

Might this be setting the bar so high we can't discuss anything you happen to disagree with?

There were plenty of facts available, but no, not all. Do we have to wait for the equivalent of the Warren Commission report on any issue before we talk about it?

OtayBW

01-10-2015, 06:40 PM

Conjecture: an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

My man, if that isn't an apt description then I don't know what is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Plenty of facts have been dispensed here as well. Unfortunate that they seem to have eluded your grasp. :rolleyes:

texbike

01-10-2015, 06:52 PM

C'mon guys. Let's not derail this thread with personal attacks and the splitting of hairs.

Texbike

abalone

01-10-2015, 07:00 PM

The church has some explaining to do.

1) They knew that Bishop Cook had a drunk driving history along with other drug-related charges prior to hiring her as the 1st ever female Bishop in Maryland.
2) They released a statement that they were aware of the past DUI, but that in their evaluation she deserved foregiveness
3) They know that there is alcohol available at the church in the form of sacrament wine
4) They knew that she had an alcoholic problem, even if it was limited knowledge based on their foregiveness of her past DUI

So, it appears that they may have inadvertently provided alcohol to an admitted alcoholic because they did say that she disclosed the history of her drunk driving record to them. Is the church that hired her responsible? Legally or ethically? I don't know, but if you are a regular business and you hire an admitted alcoholic as one of your employees knowing that you have alcohol available freely on the premises, don't you think that business would be somewhat culpable for their employees continual alcoholism?

bking

01-10-2015, 07:05 PM

I hired a ex-con 15 years ago. He had served time for attempted murder. He has been a great employee and I have promoted him several times.

If he were to attempt to kill again, is that on me and my business?

not picking on SamIAm in particular, but it's just representative of some of the argument here.

Regarding employer responsibility, sure the church could and most assuredly will be brought into this. The success (no real success for the Palermo family though) will depend on skill of plaintiff attorney, and upon the jury...never know what they'll do--there is a terrible story here, a villain on one side, and sympathetic injured party on the other.
Employers are REGULARLY brought into auto accidents, always if employee is "working" while accident happened. Doesn't matter who's car it is. I can see an argument that a Bishop, a priest, is always on the clock.
Alcohol, really hard on employers. We stopped serving it at all office parties years ago--and anyone who does plays with a lot of fire. And if they're in a company vehicle and drink on their own time and have an alcohol related accident employer can count on being pulled in. And this employee, church auto or not, needed an auto to conduct church business. And they knew of recent and prior record.

Sam, if you hired that ex con, and you sent him to someones home to conduct business, and they assaulted that someone you would be hiring a defense attorney as well. If that same person committed the crime on there own time, i would say you're right (unless acquaintance was made during business hours), but Church ministers terms of employment as far as the "clock" are concerned are pretty fuzzy.
I sat for 6 years on a state licensing board and whenever someone with a past came before us it was problematic. That person may merit a second chance, on the other hand we were providing them a license that said to the public, you can trust this person.

Everyone possible will be pulled into the above case. I'm sure the church will pay money, and not just because they're trying to do the right thing--i'm sure they want to.

None of this will help Mrs Palermo sleep tonight. I'm very sorry for their loss, and grateful for friends who set up the fund for the children. I can do something.

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 07:28 PM

seanile

01-10-2015, 07:31 PM

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 07:36 PM

C'mon guys. Let's not derail this thread with personal attacks and the splitting of hairs.

Texbike

texbike, you're are, of course, right to ask for continued civility, but it is hard when rather than trying to refute an opinion or an interpretation of a situation, a poster instead characterizes the opinion in a dismissive, pejorative or condescending way. it's a poor debating tactic. when you can't argue the message, sully the messenger. i think everyone here is game for an exchange of opinions and honest, respectful disagreement. it's the unnecessary characterization of opinions and arguments that rankles.

Aaron O

01-10-2015, 07:36 PM

is this par for the course for folks post-DUI?
"Sources told The Brew that Bishop Cook appeared at the hearing after being transported from Father Martin’s Ashley, an alcoholism and drug addiction treatment center near Havre de Grace, where she had been staying."
source (https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2015/01/09/bishop-heather-cooks-bail-set-at-2-5-million/)

That doesn't necassarilly establish that she was an alcoholic when hired. Look - I think what the rest of you do - she's a drunk. But thinking it and holding a third party accountable for knowing it are different.

It's probably fair to condemn her as a piece of �� at this point, but the attack on the church, at this point, seems like quite a stretch. It may come out that they were grossly negligent - and if and when that happens, I'll grab a pitch fork. Right now it's premature.

abalone

01-10-2015, 07:43 PM

That doesn't necassarilly establish that she was an alcoholic when hired. Look - I think what the rest of you do - she's a drunk. But thinking it and holding a third party accountable for knowing it are different.

It's probably fair to condemn her as a piece of �� at this point, but the attack on the church, at this point, seems like quite a stretch. It may come out that they were grossly negligent - and if and when that happens, I'll grab a pitch fork. Right now it's premature.

It's not an attack on the church, but they do have some tough questions to answer and it may well turn out that they knew a lot more than what has been so far reported.

pbarry

01-10-2015, 07:47 PM

This discussion exemplifies who we are. Freedom of expression, respect for other opinions, and a common bond. Don't get bogged down in the minutia of discordant posts arguing legal points not yet established. The tragedy of Tom's passing, in an entirely avoidable circumstance, is what this is about.

abalone

01-10-2015, 07:49 PM

Climb01742

01-10-2015, 07:55 PM

When exactly was it established that she had a history of alcoholism? As far as I'm aware, there are two incidents 4 years apart. When was it established that her employer knew of a history of alcoholism (as opposed to one mistake)? Do I think she's likely an alcoholic? At her age...bet your ass... But that's different than knowing it, and it's different than your assumptions that her employers knew it.

How exactly did her job necessitate driving? I'll ask again - when was it established that she was acting as an agent of her church at the time of the accident?

And no - an argument claiming that a bishop is "always on duty as an agent of her church, and therefor she was acting in an agency capacity at all times while driving" is fairly silly. Police, who are always on duty, have typically been found not to be acting in agency capacity when in accidents while not expressly on duty. At least in my state.

As far as hiring people with second chances - the justice department has released findings stating that, in fact, you can't immediately disqualify someone with a record. It's quite grey - but best practices are that you can only consider a limited scope of time, and that the crime should have a direct bearing on employment to automatically disqualify someone. In some states you can't ask those questions until later in the process.

We are a nation that explicitly supports the right to sell your labor and we are, morally, based on principles such as forgiveness. I happen to like that about this country.

We also usually like to actually have the fact pattern before leveling accusations ;)

aaron,

first, kudos for arguing your point forcefully and well, without trying to denigrate those who differ. well done.

where we diverge is this: i agree about having forgiveness and compassion for an alcoholic, and depending on the circumstances, extending second, third or fourth chances. but the moments that person grabs a set of keys, in particular, repeatedly, then the forgiveness ends.

i have a family member with substance abuse problems. there is no end to my love for her in the battle she's waging, but when she -- or anyone -- repeatedly makes choices and takes actions that harm others, that's a different thing.

compassion, understanding and forgiveness are essential, but they must be targeted and have boundaries, IMO. because in my experience, blanket forgiveness too often becomes a blanket excuse.