Opinion piece on Nibali

[Md3000]

Originally in Dutch by Frank Heinen for HP/De Tijd Magazine. Tried to translate as best as I could just cos I thought it had some interesting view points even though the subject of doping is really boring. Mods feel free to delete if this opens up a can of worms :)



Nibali: Enjoyment or deception – a conversation with myself.


“Seen it?”

“What?”

“Nibali of course!”

“Yeah, incredible…”

“Amazing huh, What an athlete, such power, such style. Did you see how he finished? Hardly breathing, man. Gosh what a super talent,”

“Hmm I dunno”

“You don’t know?”

“Yeah”

“WHAT do you not know?”

“Just.. Nibali”

“Aw come on..”

“1. He rides for Astana, the team of Vinokourov, who recently got an award for his services for the medical industry, 2. He’s being supported by Scarponi, someone who has peed next to the cup so many times that he must be standing in a pool of urine to his knees, 3. He’s way too strong for the competition, and on all sorts of terrain; little climbs, long climbs, real mountains en even on the cobbles… do I need to go on?”

“Have you ever heard of the term ‘innocence presumption’ ?”

“innocence what?”

“That you’re innocent until the opposite is proven”.”

“Oh yeah.”

“Well?”

“What? Well, we have been lied to so many times before”

“We?”

“Yeah We, the fans.”

“Well, me personally, I’ve never been lied to.”

“Not by Armstrong? Not by Ullrich, Indurain, Pantani, Boogerd and god knows who else?”

“Nah. They didn’t speak the truth, but I never experienced it as lies. They weren’t lying to me, they did to the organizers of the races they won, or, in Boogerd’s case, almost won. When you follow cycling, you have to understand that things happen that are forbidden by the rules, but they are not necessarily rejectionable.”

“I don’t understand you. You don’t want to see an honest sport?”

“No.”

“WHAT?”

“The notion that sport is unfair. Some have less talent, others prefer to train harder, have a bigger lung capacity, better gear or parents that pushed them harder, or more tactical insight. The excitement of racing comes from the people that contest each other with unequal means.”

“Well those means seem VERY unequal in this Tour.”

“Can you enjoy an amazing achievement without thinking of all kinds of deception?”

“Can you enjoy a clearly suspicious achievement without trying to figure out how it was achieved?”

“You first.”

“Don’t feel like it.”

“Well neither do I.”

“OK this is weird. We are one and the same person.”

“Yeah, kinda schizo.”

“Yeah.”

“But still. It is a great rider, Nibali? He attacks, it’s a spectacle, nice humble guy. So different from Armstrong and the others. Also: this is the new cycling. Ask Maarten Ducrot, or any of the other commentators: Nibali’s wins are those of a ‘human’”

“I’m not saying it’s not a nice guy and a quality rider, but I don’t want to see the nicest guy, I want the best.”

“I didn’t know you were so strict.”

“I didn’t know you were such a naïve romantic.”

“I repeat: the achievements and wattage are ‘human’, that guy is just really well prepared. New training methods, focus, good nutrition, that sort of thing.”

“Prepared, you mean.”

“Well what do I care? As long as I get to see a great race!”

“Race? It’s a play!”

“I prefer a nice piece of fiction than a utterly boring comparison of bodily functions.”

“So you let yourself be fooled and you don’t mind?”

“Nah, not really. Nibali is like the writer of a beautiful, enticing memoir about his experiences in a concentration camp. A book that I throroughly enjoy reading. Do you still enjoy it if you happen to find out that its writer was actually born in 1953 and was never anywhere near a camp executioner? No.”

“But it’s still deception. Something’s being sold to you, while it is actually something else. That book you mention doesn’t mean anything if it’s not true.”

“…but you enjoyed it, what more do you want?”

“Will you ever become a cynic?”

“Cycling was invented to enjoy it, not to become cynic.”

“I find my own cynicism quite pleasant.”

“That’s fine, as long as you don’t become angry.”

“Promised.”

“Good”

“Can we go get a cold beer now?”

“Just one?”

“Yeah, we’re only by ourself”

“True.”

[bcroslin]

It's a total drag that while watching the tour, anytime I think of the guy in yellow all I can think is what is he on that the tests aren't detecting? Especially Nibali and Astana.

[Saint Vitus]

I suggest taking up following men's competitive badminton then...

[oldpotatoe]

It's a total drag that while watching the tour, anytime I think of the guy in yellow all I can think is what is he on that the tests aren't detecting? Especially Nibali and Astana.

I don't think he is well served by winning or nearly winning 2 stages in a row. Dumb. Just causes and encourages the above. Vino and Astana doesn't help.

[wc1934]

It's a total drag that while watching the tour, anytime I think of the guy in yellow all I can think is what is he on that the tests aren't detecting? Especially Nibali and Astana.

Guess the test results from the 2013 Giro were flawed as well.

[redir]

I'm always willing to give the benifit of the doubt and when upon finding the truth, if some one gets caught doping, then no amount of wrath coming down from the UCI as punishment is good enough for me. Permanent ban. Period.

[ceolwulf]

The only solution is to be a fan of guys that have zero chance of winning anything. Because the instant a rider pulls ahead some cynic starts waving the dope flag. Getting really really old.

[rain dogs]

I don't think he is well served by winning or nearly winning 2 stages in a row. Dumb. Just causes and encourages the above. Vino and Astana doesn't help.

LeMond used to say something like "Everyone has at least one bad day... if they're riding human"

So let's see in the Pyrenees, cause Nibali hasn't looked close to bad... he's looked super day in and day out. Hell, he beat Cance and Sagan on the cobbles.

TJVG, Pinot, Valverde, Peraud have all had at least one bad day. Richie Porte has had three. Others have looked up and down but Nibali...Bardet has looked consistent but a level lower for sure.

So let's see going forward. It's reasonable to me that he could get through this much keeping a high level, but if he goes through the whole 3rd week looking just as strong. Well, I don't want to see that or think about it until it happens if it does.

[texbike]

I like the guy, his style, and his ability on the bike. However, I do smell smoke....

Regardless, it won't stop me from enjoying the race.

Texbike

[verticaldoug]

I suggest taking up following men's competitive badminton then...

:no:

In 2010, the world #1 tested positive for clenbuterol.
Earlier this year, the former Olympic Gold medalist from London was banned for missing too many drug tests.

[mtechnica]

Nibali has been one of the top 10 cyclists in the world for at least 3-4 ys and if we're talking 'bad days' yeah Nibs has fallen short many times, but he's consistently good and trained to peak specifically for this tour. Folks surprised by his performance haven't been following cycling very closely imo, especially since he's probably in the 60kg range which puts him right there with climbers like Contador or Bardet. Also he's one of the best bike handlers out there so I think he deserves a little credit beyond luck for not crashing IMHO

[ohsnapitsed]

The only solution is to be a fan of guys that have zero chance of winning anything. Because the instant a rider pulls ahead some cynic starts waving the dope flag. Getting really really old.

Agreed! 100%

Also- with a few of the GC favorites going into the race having abandoned, he's almost in his own category.

[bobswire]

Originally in Dutch by Frank Heinen for HP/De Tijd Magazine. Tried to translate as best as I could just cos I thought it had some interesting view points even though the subject of doping is really boring. Mods feel free to delete if this opens up a can of worms :)



Nibali: Enjoyment or deception – a conversation with myself.


“Seen it?”

“What?”

“Nibali of course!”

“Yeah, incredible…”

“Amazing huh, What an athlete, such power, such style. Did you see how he finished? Hardly breathing, man. Gosh what a super talent,”

“Hmm I dunno”

“You don’t know?”

“Yeah”

“WHAT do you not know?”

“Just.. Nibali”

“Aw come on..”

“1. He rides for Astana, the team of Vinokourov, who recently got an award for his services for the medical industry, 2. He’s being supported by Scarponi, someone who has peed next to the cup so many times that he must be standing in a pool of urine to his knees, 3. He’s way too strong for the competition, and on all sorts of terrain; little climbs, long climbs, real mountains en even on the cobbles… do I need to go on?”

“Have you ever heard of the term ‘innocence presumption’ ?”

“innocence what?”

“That you’re innocent until the opposite is proven”.”

“Oh yeah.”

“Well?”

“What? Well, we have been lied to so many times before”

“We?”

“Yeah We, the fans.”

“Well, me personally, I’ve never been lied to.”

“Not by Armstrong? Not by Ullrich, Indurain, Pantani, Boogerd and god knows who else?”

“Nah. They didn’t speak the truth, but I never experienced it as lies. They weren’t lying to me, they did to the organizers of the races they won, or, in Boogerd’s case, almost won. When you follow cycling, you have to understand that things happen that are forbidden by the rules, but they are not necessarily rejectionable.”

“I don’t understand you. You don’t want to see an honest sport?”

“No.”

“WHAT?”

“The notion that sport is unfair. Some have less talent, others prefer to train harder, have a bigger lung capacity, better gear or parents that pushed them harder, or more tactical insight. The excitement of racing comes from the people that contest each other with unequal means.”

“Well those means seem VERY unequal in this Tour.”

“Can you enjoy an amazing achievement without thinking of all kinds of deception?”

“Can you enjoy a clearly suspicious achievement without trying to figure out how it was achieved?”

“You first.”

“Don’t feel like it.”

“Well neither do I.”

“OK this is weird. We are one and the same person.”

“Yeah, kinda schizo.”

“Yeah.”

“But still. It is a great rider, Nibali? He attacks, it’s a spectacle, nice humble guy. So different from Armstrong and the others. Also: this is the new cycling. Ask Maarten Ducrot, or any of the other commentators: Nibali’s wins are those of a ‘human’”

“I’m not saying it’s not a nice guy and a quality rider, but I don’t want to see the nicest guy, I want the best.”

“I didn’t know you were so strict.”

“I didn’t know you were such a naïve romantic.”

“I repeat: the achievements and wattage are ‘human’, that guy is just really well prepared. New training methods, focus, good nutrition, that sort of thing.”

“Prepared, you mean.”

“Well what do I care? As long as I get to see a great race!”

“Race? It’s a play!”

“I prefer a nice piece of fiction than a utterly boring comparison of bodily functions.”

“So you let yourself be fooled and you don’t mind?”

“Nah, not really. Nibali is like the writer of a beautiful, enticing memoir about his experiences in a concentration camp. A book that I throroughly enjoy reading. Do you still enjoy it if you happen to find out that its writer was actually born in 1953 and was never anywhere near a camp executioner? No.”

“But it’s still deception. Something’s being sold to you, while it is actually something else. That book you mention doesn’t mean anything if it’s not true.”

“…but you enjoyed it, what more do you want?”

“Will you ever become a cynic?”

“Cycling was invented to enjoy it, not to become cynic.”

“I find my own cynicism quite pleasant.”

“That’s fine, as long as you don’t become angry.”

“Promised.”

“Good”

“Can we go get a cold beer now?”

“Just one?”

“Yeah, we’re only by ourself”

“True.”

I had this conversation quite often with myself, do I really care in the grand theme of things? Meh. The only regret I have is I can't have a cold beer, ever. :(

[Saint Vitus]

:no:

In 2010, the world #1 tested positive for clenbuterol.
Earlier this year, the former Olympic Gold medalist from London was banned for missing too many drug tests.

Bocce ball?

[texbike]

Bocce ball?

Are you kidding??? Bocce was created in Italy. I'm sure that Michele Ferrari is involved in some way working with their top players... ;)

Texbike

[norcalbiker]

What are we talking about here? I'm lost. :help:

[jimoots]

Agreed! 100%

Also- with a few of the GC favorites going into the race having abandoned, he's almost in his own category.

I agree with you and sentiments raised above. Nibali's main competition is gone, so he will naturally be a dominant force. So Nibali dominating, alone, is hardly proof that he's on the juice.

But there is noise about Sky being on the juice, and always persistent thoughts about Contador. So if there's smoke around his rivals, what does that say about Nibali?

Personally I try not to think about it and just enjoy the spectacle for what it is. It'd be nice if Contador was still around, I would've liked to see Nibali and Contador battling it out for yellow.

[chengher87]

Nibali is dominating for sure, but it's not like he or Astana have basically take over the race (like Sky and Postal). He's been isolated quite a few days in the mountains now. And that's becauseAll, and I mean ALL his main domestiques have crashed and they weren't small tiny crashes either. Scarponi ramming into the spectators, Kangert on a tight corner, Igilnsky on another corner, and Fuglsang (ouch!). When (I believe) Kangert pulled off on stage 14, Majka had a 30 second lead. Pulls by both AG2R and FDJ closed the gap to....nope, Majka's lead ballooned to near 1 and a half minutes. You're telling me that two teams containing two of the top 5 riders couldn't pull time on a rider who had been out in the breakaway?

This domination doesn't strike me quite as powerfully as SKY for a couple reasons. In stage 2, they all basically decided not to chase him. It's not like he powered away and nobody could catch him despite their best efforts. Froome and another rider (can't remember) had a chance to catch him, but when the elbow swung, Froome did not continue to trade pulls. Second, Nibali is following wheels until he feels the impetus is dead, then he attacks. It's not like Froome who constantly attacked from the front, while either his team were pulling or he was pulling with Quintana and Rodriguez. Third, he gained the most time on a cobbled stage where he took plenty of risks and got lucky (Contador's dirty derailleur and crashes). Lastly, he's following wheels the majority of the time. Froome basically attacked from the front on numerous occasions and basically blew everyone out of the water. Nibali hasn't make a singular move over 5km to go. On stage two, he attacked the last 1.8km, on stage 10, he let Pinot and Valverde tire themselves out while he did NO work and then attacked with 4km to go and then attacked with 5km to go on stage 13 and when he caught Konig and Majka, rode on their wheels for a km.

He's not really doing anything different then how he races in other Grand Tours. It's not like he's suddenly attacking from 10+kms out and putting in huge time gaps (cough, cough Armstrong, cough, cough Pantani).

[jimoots]

^^^

Fair assessment.

[PETER REID]

Nibali's new Astana crew has a new doc thats 2 steps ahead of the doping police…..:o

[sante pollastri]

Nibali is dominating for sure, but it's not like he or Astana have basically take over the race (like Sky and Postal). He's been isolated quite a few days in the mountains now. And that's becauseAll, and I mean ALL his main domestiques have crashed and they weren't small tiny crashes either. Scarponi ramming into the spectators, Kangert on a tight corner, Igilnsky on another corner, and Fuglsang (ouch!). When (I believe) Kangert pulled off on stage 14, Majka had a 30 second lead. Pulls by both AG2R and FDJ closed the gap to....nope, Majka's lead ballooned to near 1 and a half minutes. You're telling me that two teams containing two of the top 5 riders couldn't pull time on a rider who had been out in the breakaway?

This domination doesn't strike me quite as powerfully as SKY for a couple reasons. In stage 2, they all basically decided not to chase him. It's not like he powered away and nobody could catch him despite their best efforts. Froome and another rider (can't remember) had a chance to catch him, but when the elbow swung, Froome did not continue to trade pulls. Second, Nibali is following wheels until he feels the impetus is dead, then he attacks. It's not like Froome who constantly attacked from the front, while either his team were pulling or he was pulling with Quintana and Rodriguez. Third, he gained the most time on a cobbled stage where he took plenty of risks and got lucky (Contador's dirty derailleur and crashes). Lastly, he's following wheels the majority of the time. Froome basically attacked from the front on numerous occasions and basically blew everyone out of the water. Nibali hasn't make a singular move over 5km to go. On stage two, he attacked the last 1.8km, on stage 10, he let Pinot and Valverde tire themselves out while he did NO work and then attacked with 4km to go and then attacked with 5km to go on stage 13 and when he caught Konig and Majka, rode on their wheels for a km.

He's not really doing anything different then how he races in other Grand Tours. It's not like he's suddenly attacking from 10+kms out and putting in huge time gaps (cough, cough Armstrong, cough, cough Pantani).


Pantani what??

[sante pollastri]

Are you kidding??? Bocce was created in Italy. I'm sure that Michele Ferrari is involved in some way working with their top players... ;)

Texbike

typical very yankee del cazzo comment.

[brando]

Whatever... Nibali cruised the cobbles while plenty of the other gc riders whined about even having to start. And watching Froome and Contador would have earned as much skepticism or more.

[Jgrooms]

If we make the main & first case, as the op's dialog does, that Nibali is guilty from associate with prior dopers, then just about everyone is going to be 'guilty'.

Have some faith in the biological passport.

[oldpotatoe]

typical very yankee del cazzo comment.

Shouldn't that be, "d** c***o??

[texbike]

Pantani what??

typical very yankee del cazzo comment.

Thank you for another of your consistently contentious, value-lacking contributions.

[peanutgallery]

Part of me wants to believe in Nibbles, but the Vino connection is hard to look past. I think this guy needs to appear at the next press conference

http://www.recaption.com/uploads/181125060ac4dcf7a3.jpg

[Md3000]

If we make the main & first case, as the op's dialog does, that Nibali is guilty from associate with prior dopers, then just about everyone is going to be 'guilty'.

Have some faith in the biological passport.

Yes. I guess the OP dilemma is whether to care about medical examination at all, do we really want to see the comparison of biological qualifications or do we care about the spectacle and entertainment and take the cheating for granted ?

[CunegoFan]

Just assume anyone with a half decent chance of placing in the top ten of the TdF is on the juice. You'll be right 90% of the time. You cannot get those odds in Vegas.

Other than that enjoy watching a real racer win instead of a sickly looking guy who can barely ride a bike.