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Old 10-15-2020, 10:40 PM
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Taped on Tubular Tires

The largest portion of rolling resistance generated in a tubular tired wheel that is taped on, when compared to glued on, is created by the tape. Pushing a wave of compressive tape continually at the contact patch is an undisputed negative detriment to performance and anyone that tells you other wise is full of bunk.

Tubular tires are designed for performance, use glue!
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Old 10-15-2020, 11:42 PM
robt57 robt57 is offline
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Is there data to support this, first I am reading it??


OK, let's definitely do this:


exhibit A: http://kuktl.dept.ku.edu/bicycle/Part9.pdf


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Last edited by robt57; 10-16-2020 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_sasso View Post
The largest portion of rolling resistance generated in a tubular tired wheel that is taped on, when compared to glued on, is created by the tape. Pushing a wave of compressive tape continually at the contact patch is an undisputed negative detriment to performance and anyone that tells you other wise is full of bunk.

Tubular tires are designed for performance, use glue!
And use Panaracer!! Doesn't get thick, is clear and ya can 'take a trip without leaving the farm'..if ya do it in an unventilated room...

If can't find a can of it, cut your Fosters can in half(after drinking it-YO)..and get a solvent brush...

Yee gads..rolling resistance is measured in teeny improvements or teeny reductions..NOT why ya use a tubular and tape is gunky...

Panaracer!!
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:22 AM
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tape is for kindergarten art projects and holding your CX bike bottle cages on.

glue your tubulars people.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:08 AM
jamesdak jamesdak is offline
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I've got two rolls of this I'm about to use this weekend.



https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/products/carogna/


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Old 10-16-2020, 09:19 AM
El Chaba El Chaba is offline
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When you see rolling resistance test results comparing tubulars, clinchers, etc. you rarely see any remarks about the gluing of the tubulars. I would guess that this accounts for the clinchers usually having a slightly lower CRR than an equivalent tubular. Since the difference is always accounted for by saying that crepitation is the reason for the difference, this effect should go to zero as the going job becomes more secure. A good glue job means a lot to reduce rolling resistance....that means a tight bond and as pointed out not with too much thickness of glue. The thinner the glue layer the better as long as a good bond is achieved. Also, make sure that the glue bond is from edge to edge across the rim. If the tire is unbounded on the sides, it rubs with each rotation creating friction...small, but not to be ignored. If you are going to use tape, don’t bother with tubulars, stick with clinchers.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:59 AM
jamesdak jamesdak is offline
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Originally Posted by El Chaba View Post
. If you are going to use tape, don’t bother with tubulars, stick with clinchers.
LOL, like everyone is a racer looking for that final one thousandths of a second on a 100 mile race.....

How about just plain comfort, how about quicker feeling due to lighter weight, how about riding more comfortable pressures without worrying about pinch flats, how about I got a great deal on tubular wheels because no want to bother with them, how about I can tape a tire up in five minutes ????



Someone has to play devil's advocate.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:18 AM
mcallen mcallen is offline
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
How about just plain comfort, how about quicker feeling due to lighter weight, how about riding more comfortable pressures without worrying about pinch flats, how about I got a great deal on tubular wheels because no want to bother with them, how about I can tape a tire up in five minutes ????
For me, this is the line of reasoning that matters. Currently, I'm less interested in marginal gains of glue vs. tape because the real difference for me is having tubulars that are taped and ready to ride vs. having rims that need to be glued...but I just never get around to. I've glued before, and I might again, but taping is easy and just works. Plus, it should give me more time to train. If I'm going to see any noticeable gains in speed/performance, that is where they will come from.

Granted, I appreciate having options for tubs and knowledge about each option. Is it paradoxical for there to be a big tent for tubular users, or is it too niche?
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:33 AM
vintage1 vintage1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
I've got two rolls of this I'm about to use this weekend.



https://www.effettomariposa.eu/en/products/carogna/


Good luck getting it off when the time comes.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:40 AM
jamesdak jamesdak is offline
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Originally Posted by vintage1 View Post
Good luck getting it off when the time comes.
Already have one time. A little heat and then you use your thumbs to start rolling it off. Tore it twice on one rim but none on the second one. Rims were really clean after getting the tape off and just took a little alcohol and scrubbing to clean up.

My thumbs were sore though, LOL!

Not sure about other tapes but I really didn't find it that bad.

Now the tire.....the tire was on there. That did take effort.

So, that is my reality on tape based on my own experience. Just sharing.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:44 AM
vintage1 vintage1 is offline
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Also keep in mind that tape is going to add height to your tire. Not a big deal on most bikes. But a bike with tight geometry it can mean a difference of close to 1/4 of an inch.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
LOL, like everyone is a racer looking for that final one thousandths of a second on a 100 mile race.....

How about just plain comfort, how about quicker feeling due to lighter weight, how about riding more comfortable pressures without worrying about pinch flats, how about I got a great deal on tubular wheels because no want to bother with them, how about I can tape a tire up in five minutes ????



Someone has to play devil's advocate.
From the Effetto Mariposa Carogna site:

Wide temperature range resistance (while in use)
IMPORTANT: when gluing a tubular with Carogna tape, the workshop temperature should be between 21°C and 38°C (70 to 100°F). At that temperature, 80% of the adhesive strength is reached after 8 hours, 99% after 24 hours. Proper adhesion cannot take place at temperatures below 10°C/50°F.

Carogna glue is pressure-activated, so it bonds very strongly when it’s pushed down against the rim by the tubular pressure (for this reason, for road tubulars, we recommend inflating tubulars to their max pressure and allowing some time before riding: adhesion reaches 80% of its maximum strength after 8 hours, the optimal value of 99% after 24 hours). As most cyclocross tubulars don’t allow a very high maximum pressure, Carogna might need a longer time before the optimal adhesion takes place. This depends also on the finishing/surface of the tubular base tape.
We’ve been reported cases where cyclocross tubulars were not glued yet after 8 hours, but perfectly so allowing one more day at maximum pressure.

The quality of the adhesion should be checked by completely deflating the tubular and gently pushing it on the side. If the tubular is still not perfectly glued, inflate again and wait longer. Time will normally address the issue.

Also be aware of this statement from there web site: Carogna tape has to be glued on rims that haven’t been sanded, in order to deliver its full adhesive strength. If your rims have been sanded, as is common practice when using mastic on carbon rims, we cannot guarantee it will work properly, as it depends on how deep the sanding is and how it affected the surface smoothness.

How about you are giving up a portion of that weight advantage using tape and your tubular price deal just went out the window with more costly tape. Please video that five minute install for us when you put them together, I would like to see it.
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Last edited by m_sasso; 10-16-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:29 AM
jamesdak jamesdak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_sasso View Post
From the Effetto Mariposa Carogna site:

Wide temperature range resistance (while in use)
IMPORTANT: when gluing a tubular with Carogna tape, the workshop temperature should be between 21°C and 38°C (70 to 100°F). At that temperature, 80% of the adhesive strength is reached after 8 hours, 99% after 24 hours. Proper adhesion cannot take place at temperatures below 10°C/50°F.

Carogna glue is pressure-activated, so it bonds very strongly when it’s pushed down against the rim by the tubular pressure (for this reason, for road tubulars, we recommend inflating tubulars to their max pressure and allowing some time before riding: adhesion reaches 80% of its maximum strength after 8 hours, the optimal value of 99% after 24 hours). As most cyclocross tubulars don’t allow a very high maximum pressure, Carogna might need a longer time before the optimal adhesion takes place. This depends also on the finishing/surface of the tubular base tape.
We’ve been reported cases where cyclocross tubulars were not glued yet after 8 hours, but perfectly so allowing one more day at maximum pressure.



How about you are giving up a portion of that weight advantage using tape and your tubular price deal just went out the window with more costly tape. Please video that five minute install for us when you put them together, I would like to see it.
??? Not really sure what you are questioning. You roll the tape on leaving excess liner over the edge of the rim. You put on the tubular, straighten it, pump in some air, and then pull out the liner tape carefully. Pump it up to at least 100 psi and done. What's the question?

Yes you leave them sit as you would gluing . My point is no multiple coats of glue, no letting the coats set up, no struggling to straighten the tire, no glue clean up, etc, etc. Of course you do miss out on Pete's tripping experience.
For some that may make it a no go. LOL!

The "taping" process is very quick and super simple. This whole thread honestly reeks of a "holier than though" theme from some. I say anything that get's people out riding is good. Oh and I do glue tires sometime too, no big deal. Taping is just simpler and works for me in a lot of situations.

Pretty funny that I'm the old school, "steel is real" guy but advocating for tape. Guess I'm just open-minded and all that.

Heck anything I can do to shorten time wrenching to give me time riding I'm going to do.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:41 AM
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m_sasso m_sasso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
??? Not really sure what you are questioning. You roll the tape on leaving excess liner over the edge of the rim. You put on the tubular, straighten it, pump in some air, and then pull out the liner tape carefully. Pump it up to at least 100 psi and done. What's the question?

Yes you leave them sit as you would gluing . My point is no multiple coats of glue, no letting the coats set up, no struggling to straighten the tire, no glue clean up, etc, etc. Of course you do miss out on Pete's tripping experience.
For some that may make it a no go. LOL!

The "taping" process is very quick and super simple. This whole thread honestly reeks of a "holier than though" theme from some. I say anything that get's people out riding is good. Oh and I do glue tires sometime too, no big deal. Taping is just simpler and works for me in a lot of situations.

Pretty funny that I'm the old school, "steel is real" guy but advocating for tape. Guess I'm just open-minded and all that.

Heck anything I can do to shorten time wrenching to give me time riding I'm going to do.
Well for one you neglected to clean the rim before applying the tape, two if your rims are used and have been roughed up for glue, forget about tape. 3. Read the directions before using it! 4..................
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:10 PM
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m_sasso m_sasso is offline
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Originally Posted by robt57 View Post
Is there data to support this, first I am reading it??

exhibit A: http://kuktl.dept.ku.edu/bicycle/Part9.pdf



REPLY

From the Effetto Mariposa Carogna site

Question:

How does Carogna compare to glue in terms of rolling resistance? I saw a mention that you had scheduled testing with a Finnish company in 2015. But I can’t find results. I’d be willing to trade some performance for convenience. But I’d like to do it in an informed way.

Answer:

Laboratory test results show that the crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) of gluing tape is higher than mastic. Checking different tapes and mastics, it seems all mastics performs more or less the same, and all tapes are also equivalent among them from that standpoint, with a crr penalty of around 15% for tapes (same tubular, same pressure, same testing conditions).


In my world 15% is large!
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Last edited by m_sasso; 10-16-2020 at 12:17 PM.
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