Wheel build advice, opinions.

marciero · #1 12-31-2017, 09:24 AM

I have a 32-hole SON deluxe with 50mm flange spacing that was on a dented rim. I ordered spokes to build that onto a Hed Belgium Plus rim. (That rim was built onto a WI hub, so I went against my philosophy to taking apart a perfectly good wheel...) So I ordered and received 287mm spokes. Now, noting the narrow flange spacing, and eyeing the wide-body versions of this hub I have on two other wheels, I am considering building with the wide-body, which has 68mm flange. This will give me a stronger wheel, which would be nice since this will be used on a tandem. Prowheelbuilder spoke calc. gives 286.5 and 287.5, respectively, for the non-widebody and widebody versions. Ordering new spokes is not an option as I need this wheel built in the next couple of days as are leaving for a trip.

These are 32-hole, 3X lacing, which I want to maintain.
So three considerations:
1. I know one generally rounds up so ideally would have 288 spoke for the widebody. But 287 would probably be okay, yes?
2. Taking apart another perfectly good wheel though that rim probably has 30K+ miles on it... At least the Hed was an orphan front that was not being used.
3. Wide body is stronger, but do I really need the extra strength? Both hubs also have high flange-54mm dia-which also gives stronger wheel. I've used this hub with the dented Dyad on the tandem and it has been fine. In fact, my original plan was to go with the dented wheel-I deemed the pulsing during braking "acceptable". I changed my mind the other day during a ride.

I think I am leaning toward just going with the narrow hub as planned. Thoughts?

Edit: This wheel is for unloaded front.

speedevil · #2 12-31-2017, 09:42 AM

+/- 1mm on spoke length should be fine. Since the length calculation is already rounded (by most calculators) rounding up again is probably not necessary. Not knowing which calculator you used, I can't say with certainty, but a 1mm difference should not be a concern.

ergott · #3 12-31-2017, 09:43 AM

You risk more potential problems if the spokes are too short than you do the narrower spacing.

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Mark McM · #4 12-31-2017, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergott

You risk more potential problems if the spokes are too short than you do the narrower spacing.

But in this case, the spokes are only 0.5mm short. With 32 spokes and brass nipples, this should not be an issue, and shouldn't be the decider.

I wouldn't have a problem with the narrow flange spacing on a 32 spoke wheel for a single bike, but tandem wheels take roughly twice the load of a single, so I'd lean more towards the wider hub.

ergott · #5 12-31-2017, 10:19 AM

Calculators tend to run short with large flanges and crossed spokes. Assuming all measurements are accurate I prefer to round up with builds like that.

0.5mm short is no worry if that's how they end up.

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ergott · #6 12-31-2017, 10:26 AM

I ran the calc using my measurements. With the wide hub I predict the spokes will end up 1mm below the top of the heads when at tension.

marciero · #7 12-31-2017, 11:19 AM

Thanks all for your remarks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergott

I ran the calc using my measurements. With the wide hub I predict the spokes will end up 1mm below the top of the heads when at tension.

Thanks for running the calculation. Since the the threads dont start until 1mm or more below the head, this seems like it would be fine, with all threads engaged. Does that sound about right? Or does this mean we are now 1mm short instead of the 0.5mm short that is acceptable?

ergott · #8 12-31-2017, 11:56 AM

If I'm right and they end up 1mm short that's not bad, especially with brass nipples. Any more than that is pushing it.

At this point you'll have to build it to know for sure.

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marciero · #9 12-31-2017, 12:17 PM

Okay will be a judgement call. I suppose can try wide flange and re-rebuild if they come up short.

marciero · #10 01-01-2018, 07:54 AM

The spokes from the dented rim should be 289. So will have that as option if the 287 are unacceptably short.

weisan · #11 01-01-2018, 11:02 AM

Marcielo pal, you better start cranking, the Golden State awaits you and your partner!

AngryScientist · #12 01-01-2018, 11:09 AM

14mm nipples vs 12 buy a little room for shorter spokes.

ergott · #13 01-01-2018, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

14mm nipples vs 12 buy a little room for shorter spokes.

That doesn't fix short spokes, just gives you wrench flats lower down (Sapim). I seriously do not recommend using the DT version that does have lower threading. They don't make the wheel any better since you will still not have threads in the head engaged. All the strength of the nipple is above the rim bed in the head.

I do not recommend the nipples below as a practice.

This image below is from wheelfanatyk and represents what I'm talking about.

AngryScientist · #14 01-01-2018, 11:19 AM

that's interesting eric, thanks.

the only nipples i use anymore to build with are sapin securelock brass. i had not been aware about the strength profile you mention with regard to nipples though. good to know!

marciero · #15 01-01-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ergott

That doesn't fix short spokes, just gives you wrench flats lower down (Sapim). I seriously do not recommend using the DT version that does have lower threading. They don't make the wheel any better since you will still not have threads in the head engaged. All the strength of the nipple is above the rim bed in the head.

I do not recommend the nipples below as a practice.

I did read a little about importance of engaging the head in some other threads-there is a LOT on "spoke length". Before I had thought it was all about engaging all the threads.

So I have the options
1. Wide body SON with 287mm spokes, which will be about 1mm too short based on Eric's estimate
2. Wide body SON with leftover 289mm spokes, which will be about 1mm too long based on Eric's estimate of the 287 being 1mm short
3. Non-wide body as originally intended with the 287 spokes I ordered. Using a spokecalc spreadsheet I had laying around on my computer the length came out to 286.6, same as prowheelbuilder spoke calc. So the 287 these should be good.

While the wheel strength of the narrower flange is a consideration, I have hundreds of miles on the this hub on the Dyad rim on the tandem without issue. I had not noticed any brake rub during the occasional sprint, even with relatively close pads of the mini-V brakes. It;s not like we are flailing the bike side-to-side. In fact, the rear hub on this bike has even narrower flange spacing, albeit with 40 spokes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weisan

Marcielo pal, you better start cranking, the Golden State awaits you and your partner!

Will decide today for sure!