Phil Wood BB Install - Need Help

[Don49]

Much to my surprise I seem to have messed up the install of a PW BB on a Bianchi BUSS. So I come to you with shop apron in hand, asking for help.

BB: 68 x 113mm Ti JIS, British SS rings

I removed old BB, cleaned shell threads, checked for obstructions, ran the new PW rings in and out of BB shell to check for binding.

Followed instructions from OP for anti-seize on rings, grease where rings fit over the BB:

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Lotsa grease or antisieze inside the BB shell, I use grease between the cup and BB, then 2 tools, TIGHT. I NEVER loctite them in on any frame..they don't come loose if you do the above.

I snugged up both rings, using two PW tools, staying well under the 20 ft-lbs torque spec. Right away the spindle got stiffer to turn so I knew something was wrong. Loosened it up again and spindle turns easier but still stiffer than before I attempted the install.

So not only did I fail at the install for unknown reasons, but I may have damaged the BB as well. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Tickdoc]

Sounds like bb shell needs to be chased before install.....but don't take my word for it.

When I did my Phil bb install on my colnago per op's instructions, it kept backing out on me. So I resorted to using phils blue lick thread stuff, and has been good since ( but I haven't had to remove it yet :-)

[11.4]

To confirm, your threads were smooth so the Phil mounting rings went in easily on both sides, right?

In that case, I'm guessing that you aren't engaging the lip of the mounting rings with the opposing lip on the bottom bracket itself. That's partly a matter of holding the cartridge just right so everything mates properly, partly a matter of being sure there's no bit of tubing or carbon or resin or whatever projecting into the space occupied by the cartridge (which would force it out of position). If you aren't engaged properly, the edge of the mounting ring can tighten against the cartridge bearing where it should only be bearing on the steel or alloy or ti shell of the cartridge. You might need to tap the end of the spindle ever so lightly with a plastic mallet and it'll loosen up. The inside of the lip of the mounting ring will seat the bearings inside the cartridge as the outer lips of the mounting ring actually support the cartridge shell itself. Hope that's clear.

Also, note that it's normal for the cartridge to tighten up a bit in mounting. Resistance while not under load doesn't mean too much. With the cartridge tightened up and load on the crank arms, the cartridge will run like it's supposed to and without any slop. I'm not saying you don't have a displaced bearing cartridge but don't get too worried yet. It's all fixable anyway.

There's also the possibility that you have a slight ding or mismatch between the cartridge lip and the mounting ring lips. Check to be sure they slide together. They should be tight but should mate evenly.

As a long shot, your frame might have left and right threads out of alignment with each other -- they basically point in slightly different directions. That means that when the Phil mounting rings tighten up, they don't meet squarely with the bottom bracket. That can cause binding as well. To check this, you need a proper double-sided bottom bracket tap and should have a qualified shop check it.

Hope that gives you some ideas to work with.

[Don49]

Originally Posted by 11.4

To confirm, your threads were smooth so the Phil mounting rings went in easily on both sides, right?

Yes, both rings threaded in easily at least 5mm beyond flush with BB shell.

Originally Posted by 11.4

In that case, I'm guessing that you aren't engaging the lip of the mounting rings with the opposing lip on the bottom bracket itself. That's partly a matter of holding the cartridge just right so everything mates properly, partly a matter of being sure there's no bit of tubing or carbon or resin or whatever projecting into the space occupied by the cartridge (which would force it out of position). If you aren't engaged properly, the edge of the mounting ring can tighten against the cartridge bearing where it should only be bearing on the steel or alloy or ti shell of the cartridge. You might need to tap the end of the spindle ever so lightly with a plastic mallet and it'll loosen up. The inside of the lip of the mounting ring will seat the bearings inside the cartridge as the outer lips of the mounting ring actually support the cartridge shell itself. Hope that's clear.

Yes, perfectly clear.
And I had checked inside the BB shell thoroughly and no obstructions to cartridge.
Sounds like the bearings aren't preloaded until the rings are torqued, so spindle friction of the untightened BB won't mean much.

Originally Posted by 11.4

There's also the possibility that you have a slight ding or mismatch between the cartridge lip and the mounting ring lips. Check to be sure they slide together. They should be tight but should mate evenly.

They will not fit together by hand pressure alone, I tried that. I assumed that torquing the rings to 20 ft-lbs is what forces the fit. Again, hand fitting the lip of the ring over the bearing shell is impossible. [Is this a problem?]
Sheldon says 67mm width between outer faces of mounting rings, so no threads should be visible, and I had about 1mm of ring extending out of boths sides. So ring isn't fully sliding onto the bearing shell.

Originally Posted by 11.4

Hope that gives you some ideas to work with

Yes, thanks, I feel better now, and will have another go at it to get the ring fully mated to the bearing shell.
I still plan to use just PW grease and anti-seize.

[bikinchris]

A good Loctite application is every bit as good as never seize to prevent the rings from getting stuck.
Install the BB and tighten, if necessary back off the torque until it turns easily. The Loctite will keep it from loosening.

[cachagua]

That last is what I do. I've had Phils, Campy cartridges, and lower-grade UNs and Octalinks tighten up when they were over-squeezed.

Seen this on high-enough-quality frames that I never suspected the alignment of the BB threads, although maybe I should have? Either way, though, the combination of a gentler pinch and gluing the rings in place solves the problem.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Don49

Much to my surprise I seem to have messed up the install of a PW BB on a Bianchi BUSS. So I come to you with shop apron in hand, asking for help.

BB: 68 x 113mm Ti JIS, British SS rings

I removed old BB, cleaned shell threads, checked for obstructions, ran the new PW rings in and out of BB shell to check for binding.

Followed instructions from OP for anti-seize on rings, grease where rings fit over the BB:

I snugged up both rings, using two PW tools, staying well under the 20 ft-lbs torque spec. Right away the spindle got stiffer to turn so I knew something was wrong. Loosened it up again and spindle turns easier but still stiffer than before I attempted the install.

So not only did I fail at the install for unknown reasons, but I may have damaged the BB as well. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Sounds like the threads on each side aren't cut parallel to one another. Chasing them completely may help.

As mentioned, grease inside one cup, tap it on the BB, all the way down, then screw it in..then the other cup, lotsa grease inside that as well. The whole, 'if it gets tight, loosen and glue in there', means something is amiss. I have(had) a Phil on both my Merckx and Moots and I tighten the be-jeesus out of the cups and they don't get tight at all.

[moobikes]

No, you didn't damage the Phill BB. I've also had various BBs of cartridge designs tighten up with installation. Shimano UNs, SKFs, and Phils. The Shimano UNs with a plastic non-drive side cup solves this problem because the plastic cup will bend instead of pushing against the bearing/ causing binding.

The design requires both BB threads to be in alignment and also for the BB shell to be pretty straight and the reality is most BBs are not that straight.

They usually loosen up with use unless it is really tight to begin with.

Even if your shop has BB chasing or cutting tools, the situation might not improve much if the tool isn't able to chase both threads at the same time. But I would chase the threads and see what that does.

[Don49]

Thanks for all the good suggestions guys. I made another attempt but still failed, so I've come to the conclusion that the BB threads are not aligned as was mentioned.

With the rings fully tightened the width between outer faces of mounting rings is 72mm, and should be 68mm so the rings are not fully seating onto the bearings and are misaligned causing the spindle to bind.
And yes it is a 60mm width BB for a 68mm BB shell.

I stopped by the LBS and they are familiar with PW BB's and agree the BB shell threading needs to be checked. They have the tool that holds the BB taps aligned while chasing the threads, so maybe that will do it.

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by Don49

Thanks for all the good suggestions guys. I made another attempt but still failed, so I've come to the conclusion that the BB threads are not aligned as was mentioned.

With the rings fully tightened the width between outer faces of mounting rings is 72mm, and should be 68mm so the rings are not fully seating onto the bearings and are misaligned causing the spindle to bind.
And yes it is a 60mm width BB for a 68mm BB shell.

I stopped by the LBS and they are familiar with PW BB's and agree the BB shell threading needs to be checked. They have the tool that holds the BB taps aligned while chasing the threads, so maybe that will do it.

Keep us posted on how it goes. Sure hope you get to use it, because the spin like buttah!

[11.4]

Originally Posted by Don49

They will not fit together by hand pressure alone, I tried that. I assumed that torquing the rings to 20 ft-lbs is what forces the fit. Again, hand fitting the lip of the ring over the bearing shell is impossible. [Is this a problem?]
Sheldon says 67mm width between outer faces of mounting rings, so no threads should be visible, and I had about 1mm of ring extending out of boths sides. So ring isn't fully sliding onto the bearing shell.

They might have to be tapped together lightly. They should mate easily with the pressure of the mounting ring wrench. It's not just a loose hand-fit. The real issue is whether there's a dent or ding on one that really prevents them from mating.

However, you didn't address (in your response, anyway) the point that the two threadings in the bottom bracket may not be concentric. I'm guessing that's actually the most likely reason since you've ruled out a few obvious, minor issues. And Spud agrees on this. I'd take this to a pro shop who can run a double-sided tap through to be sure that everything is properly aligned. I'm begging it'll show that the original bottom bracket threading job was badly done. And with that redone, you'll have everything work well.

[regularguy412]

I'd be inclined to agree that the BB shell threading is the issue. I've used 2 of the mount ring-cartridge BB spindles like you have. Once you install and it's 'right', you're good for about 30,000 miles. And rebuildability is a plus.

I'm currently using a Phil external BB on my Fondo TI with DA 7900 crank. Over 6,000 miles on that setup and nary a problem.

Mike in AR

[Don49]

Originally Posted by 11.4

However, you didn't address (in your response, anyway) the point that the two threadings in the bottom bracket may not be concentric. I'm guessing that's actually the most likely reason since you've ruled out a few obvious, minor issues. And Spud agrees on this. I'd take this to a pro shop who can run a double-sided tap through to be sure that everything is properly aligned. I'm begging it'll show that the original bottom bracket threading job was badly done. And with that redone, you'll have everything work well.

I did address the threading in a later post. My LBS has the proper double sided tool with a rod connecting the sides to maintain alignment. They agree it's most likely a BB shell threading issue. I'll report back next week on the outcome, and thanks guys for the help.

[Don49]

Got into the LBS today and problem is fixed. As was suggested here the BB shell threading wasn't concentric side to side and thread chasing both sides together corrected that. Now the BB rings can be torqued to spec with no binding of spindle rotation.

So thanks for the help on this problem. Going in I never suspected the BB shell threading could be an issue, and it wasn't with Shimano BB's.

Anybody use the PW "Mud Guards"? http://www.philwood.com/products/bbp...dcupguards.php Interesting idea but not sure it's worth $25.

[donevwil]

Originally Posted by Don49

Anybody use the PW "Mud Guards"? http://www.philwood.com/products/bbp...dcupguards.php Interesting idea but not sure it's worth $25.

I put some on my "pretty" bike and they do look nice. It turned out, however, that they trapped quite a bit of water and grime inside, face of the bearings/seals were dirtier than those on my winter bike without the covers.