Custom Titanium Options

[Lionel]

Remember that day Houston? Your C60 was also a cool looking bike



As for the TT internal routing TK and Seven are not for it as it weakens the tube.

[Jeff N.]

Yes, that's their line...it weakens the tube. Mosaic, IMO, does the cleanest work when it comes to internal routing...no visible sign of welding of the inside tube whatsoever. But, doggone it, that TT is so dang weak now, I'm afraid it'll snap any second!

[mcteague]

Back when Merlin made the Spectrum Ti frames, an internal rear brake cable was one of the things Tom did to his version. That, along with grinding down the weld marks. I had one back in the 90s. Guess when production was moved to Seven they put the kibosh on that.

Tim

[happycampyer]

I think that you have to understand where the different builders are coming from. Whether you agree with their positions (or the builders agree with others' positions) is another matter.

Seven is perhaps the biggest purist in the space. Afaik Seven still only uses pop rivets for water bottle bosses. Their position is that any hole in a tube, and any attendant welding, is a potential source of weakness, so they want to keep the holes etc. a minimum. Serotta had similar limits on what they were willing to do, and I know from speaking with former employees that those limits were based on tests they performed or had performed on frames. Serotta wouldn't drill a triple-butted frame for electronic wiring because test frames didn't pass their stringent tests. Would the frames ever fail in the real world? From what I understand, probably not, but that was their standard and they were sticking to it. I would imagine that Seven also does testing of various features before they introduce them. Another thing that Seven will not do is anodize their frames. I would imagine that a lot of customers who would be interested in a Seven end up going elsewhere just on that feature alone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting their business.

My guess is that the smaller builders don't do as much, if any, testing. Their experience with the material tells them that the risk of failure is extremely low, and they don't need to see a frame fail after 999,999 cycles when only 100,000 cycles would do.

And then the question of offering lots of options comes down to scale. Companies like Seven and Moots are set up for production, so offering a gazillion custom options just isn't practical. Their solutions to flat-mount disc brakes is a testament to the need for efficiency, although their approaches are completely different (Seven incorporates the brake mounts into its dropout, Moots 3-D prints a dropout with mounts). Neither solution is as visually elegant compared to Mosaic, Firefly, Eriksen, etc., but each solution allows the respective company to produce straight frames to their respective high standards in volume. Mosaics, Fireflys and Eriksens are just as straight, but it takes a lot more time to execute, and the risk of f'ing up is greater.

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

I think that you have to understand where the different builders are coming from. Whether you agree with their positions (or the builders agree with others' positions) is another matter.

Seven is perhaps the biggest purist in the space. Afaik Seven still only uses pop rivets for water bottle bosses. Their position is that any hole in a tube, and any attendant welding, is a potential source of weakness, so they want to keep the holes etc. a minimum. Serotta had similar limits on what they were willing to do, and I know from speaking with former employees that those limits were based on tests they performed or had performed on frames. Serotta wouldn't drill a triple-butted frame for electronic wiring because test frames didn't pass their stringent tests. Would the frames ever fail in the real world? From what I understand, probably not, but that was their standard and they were sticking to it. I would imagine that Seven also does testing of various features before they introduce them. Another thing that Seven will not do is anodize their frames. I would imagine that a lot of customers who would be interested in a Seven end up going elsewhere just on that feature alone, but it doesn't seem to be hurting their business.

My guess is that the smaller builders don't do as much, if any, testing. Their experience with the material tells them that the risk of failure is extremely low, and they don't need to see a frame fail after 999,999 cycles when only 100,000 cycles would do.

And then the question of offering lots of options comes down to scale. Companies like Seven and Moots are set up for production, so offering a gazillion custom options just isn't practical. Their solutions to flat-mount disc brakes is a testament to the need for efficiency, although their approaches are completely different (Seven incorporates the brake mounts into its dropout, Moots 3-D prints a dropout with mounts). Neither solution is as visually elegant compared to Mosaic, Firefly, Eriksen, etc., but each solution allows the respective company to produce straight frames to their respective high standards in volume. Mosaics, Fireflys and Eriksens are just as straight, but it takes a lot more time to execute, and the risk of f'ing up is greater.

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.

Good read. Thanks.

[colker]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Lovely bike.

Can't imagine how that could be improved.

I could think of one albeit small improvement: raise the water bottle holder on the seat tube on Lionel´s Spectrum.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by Lionel

Remember that day Houston? Your C60 was also a cool looking bike



As for the TT internal routing TK and Seven are not for it as it weakens the tube.

So windy on Diablo my C60 almost blew out of my hand and into the air.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

A feature that Mosaic offers that is very clean and very few builders offer is a welded front derailleur hanger. Totally frivolous, but once you see one, you want one on all of your ti frames.

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by Kontact

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

When were the frames built? If they were made before compact cranks were popular, it’s understandable; if they were made more recently, it’s hard to excuse. Welded hangers are fairly standard on steel frames, so it shouldn’t be too hard to get it right.

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by Kontact

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

Good point! If they're long enough for adjustment, no biggie...but if not, you're SOL.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

When were the frames built? If they were made before compact cranks were popular, it’s understandable; if they were made more recently, it’s hard to excuse. Welded hangers are fairly standard on steel frames, so it shouldn’t be too hard to get it right.

They are both from the 90s, but smaller chainrings are a lot older than 'compacts'. My point is that braze ons are neato, but a pain when component fashions change. They are a real affectation when the seat tube is round and metal.

Which everyone will appreciate when 60t cainrings become the next must-have fashion trend.

[Lionel]

Originally Posted by colker

I could think of one albeit small improvement: raise the water bottle holder on the seat tube on Lionel´s Spectrum.

Actually, Tom insisted on this a lot for a lower center of gravity. It's another thing I would not change actually. I'm sure raising it would work as well.

[avalonracing]

I love that Spectrum. And if memory serves me the seat tube water bottle was also quite low on my TK designed Merlin Works CR. I loved that bike and thought the low-mount bottle made sense.

[Mikej]

Originally Posted by Kontact

I've had two Ti frames with welded hangers, and I'm glad I never tried to go to a compact crank on either.

Would it reach? 3 teeth on a 50t really isn't that much lower that a 53t, but its possible the slot wasn't welded in the position to accommodate both. I like the Spectrum, I just don't care for the smooth welds. I know, I know....

[Jeff N.]

Originally Posted by Lionel

Actually, Tom insisted on this a lot for a lower center of gravity. It's another thing I would not change actually. I'm sure raising it would work as well.

I remember the drawing of my Spectrum that Tom Emailed me to sign off. I noticed the bottle mounts on the seat tube were really low compared to what I liked. I told him to raise them high enough as to not allow the cage to, in any way, overlap the FD clamp. He did. I like the, as Tom calls them, "pulseless welds". It's different and requires skill. They're not "sanded", like some people think.