OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[Davist]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

The present $7500 federal tax credit is limited to a maximum MSRP of $55,000 for most cars*, which effectively brings their price down to (or below) the average new car price in the U.S. You're not eligible for the tax credit if your income makes you (roughly) a five-percenter. So, it's really more of an "average buyer subsidy" than it is a "rich people subsidy."

* $80,000 for pickups, vans, bigger SUVs

Yeah... let's see my '22 Camry was $28k so not in your league of an "average or below" $47.5k net for car or $72.5k for SUVs?! I stand by my rich people subsidies (max AGI of $300k household, $150k individual and $225k hoh) comment and don't think it's a good use of our federal funds. (Even without COVID income subsides ($1.6T) we look like this

[fa63]

Utilities getting out of the generation business as you state is very region specific. For example, Southern Company puts a lot of money into building new plants (to either make up capacity from retired coal plants, or to meet additional demand) because they get a guaranteed 10.5% return on their equity (and it is guaranteed because they more or less control the Public Service Commission members who have final say on approving their Integrated Resource Plan).

As for your calculation, when people in the energy analysis circles run a calculation comparing costs, they typically use "Levelized Cost of Electricity" which considers capacity factors as well. Otherwise, it wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Originally Posted by Davist

The comment on utility companies wanting to make money is EXACTLY why they got out of the generation business and we don't have a consolidated generation plan. They are in the T&D (transmission and distribution) business only. Generation operators aren't investing in general, as despite the predictions, the overall consumption is basically FLAT since '05 or so EIA US electricity consumption and any nukes would be >10 years out, and per above, some of us are very concerned about waste (I'm not).

I think the basic fallacy of the renewable argument with "parity" is as follows: solar costs the same per kW of generation (or is cheaper) than traditional generation, HOWEVER, solar is only operating (let's say 100% efficiency) X hours / day (let's say 12 to round up) then to produce 2MW x 24hrs you would need 4MW installed and 2MW of 12 hour energy storage right? Help me understand if I'm wrong on this,

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Davist

Yeah... let's see my '22 Camry was $28k so not in your league of an "average or below" $47.5k net for car or $72.5k for SUVs?! I stand by my rich people subsidies (max AGI of $300k household, $150k individual and $225k hoh) comment and don't think it's a good use of our federal funds.

$47k is the average price of a new car purchased in the U.S. Regardless, the tax credit is available if you buy a $28k Nissan Leaf instead of a $28k Camry.

The tax credits are for people below those AGI levels, which means they're available to ordinary people.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

$47k is the average price of a new car purchased in the U.S. Regardless, the tax credit is available if you buy a $28k Nissan Leaf instead of a $28k Camry.

The tax credits are for people below those AGI levels, which means they're available to ordinary people.

Not to mention after the price lowered by tax credit and [here] DEQ rebate, you use no gas, or have to go get gas and oil changes.

VS our 2018 41 MPG Honda Fit that used 90.00 month @ 2.85/gal for my wifes commute. Bolt uses $32-42.00 Elec depending on winter/other use. Gas went up here at it highest so that the 90 woulda been 140.00/mo. Cost per kWh went up here .03/kWh over 3-4 years FWIW.

$400/yr elec VS $1300 @ current gas prices [here]. 900/12=75.00/mo you can have for the higher car payment you will have at the prices of these car today.

No really, same 28k car financed 10k less with tax and DEQ etc, ] if not a cash buy] lowers loan and mo/payment a lot. Then 75.00 less gas cost for your 1000+ mile commute per/mo.

The number looks like they can really work.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

$47k is the average price of a new car purchased in the U.S. Regardless, the tax credit is available if you buy a $28k Nissan Leaf instead of a $28k Camry.

The tax credits are for people below those AGI levels, which means they're available to ordinary people.

40% of households pay no federal income tax, so they're out, ordinary people there. Takes about $85k family income to even pay above the $7500 tax credit, well above that to fully write it off, so let's say in that $150k-$299k window. In terms of percentile that's 80th -95th.

As to the car stats, $47k is the average vehicle cost (KBB data, which I presume is your source, includes cars SUVs, trucks, EVs) not the average passenger car cost (avg EV cost per KBB is $66k so above threshold)

anyway, I get it "ordinary people" and we're spending money we don't have..

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Davist

40% of households pay no federal income tax, so they're out, ordinary people there. Takes about $85k family income to even pay above the $7500 tax credit, well above that to fully write it off, so let's say in that $150k-$299k window.

As to the car stats, $47k is the average vehicle cost (KBB data, which I presume is your source, includes cars SUVs, EVs) not the average passenger car cost (avg EV cost per KBB is $66k so above threshold)

anyway, I get it "ordinary people" and we're spending money we don't have..

By your own figures, anyone making under $85k will pay no federal taxes if they buy an EV. The amount of their tax credit will vary, but they will all end up at the same place -- zero net tax. It's disingenuous to call it a "rich people subsidy" when ordinary people are clearly benefitting from it.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

By your own figures, anyone making under $85k will pay no federal taxes if they buy an EV. The amount of their tax credit will vary, but they will all end up at the same place -- zero net tax. It's disingenuous to call it a "rich people subsidy" when ordinary people are clearly benefitting from it.

this made me laugh out loud. Guess we'll agree to disagree. No way I'd encourage a family with a total income below federal income tax being levied to spend 50+% of their yearly income on a car ever!

To recap the top 5% miss out on the tax credit, the next 15% get to particpate fully and everyone below (that's 80% of families!) gets no (40% or 1/2 of the remaining) to a smaller amount of tax credit (variable among the remaining 1/2 or 40%).

[AngryScientist]

Rivian R1T will race Pike's Peak hill race this year, that should be interesting to watch....

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...kes-peak-2023/

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Davist

this made me laugh out loud. Guess we'll agree to disagree. No way I'd encourage a family with a total income below federal income tax being levied to spend 50+% of their yearly income on a car ever!

People spend 50% of their annual income on cars all the time. It's done with this thing called financing.

Originally Posted by Davist

To recap the top 5% miss out on the tax credit, the next 15% get to particpate fully and everyone below (that's 80% of families!) gets no (40% or 1/2 of the remaining) to a smaller amount of tax credit (variable among the remaining 1/2 or 40%).

I'm betting someone that gets a $2500 or $3750 tax credit when purchasing a $28k Nissan Leaf is still pretty happy.

[Davist]

love ya tomato coupe

Full advantage of tax credit goes to 80th percentile and up. How is this not rich people?

I'm all for EVs just don't want to subsidize folks in my family's and above tax brackets!

The Rivian is cool if you don't have to look at the front end... quite a few around here, like the looks of the F150 lightning better though.

[Davist]

Next we can talk about the absurdity of this: Why Wyoming won't build the EV charging network

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

People spend 50% of their annual income on cars all the time. It's done with this thing called financing..

Really? I had no idea, seriously, that seems so profoundly irresponsible. yikes.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Davist

love ya tomato coupe

Full advantage of tax credit goes to 80th percentile and up. How is this not rich people?

Your numbers are bad. You claim that $85k income is necessary to realize the full tax credit -- $85k is at the 57th percentile, not the 80th percentile.

Originally Posted by Davist

I'm all for EVs just don't want to subsidize folks in my family's and above tax brackets!

I figured that. You don't like the idea that someone that makes more money than you is receiving a benefit that you don't take advantage of. That's petty.

Originally Posted by Davist

Really? I had no idea, seriously, that seems so profoundly irresponsible. yikes.

You think you should be able to tell people what they're allowed to spend on cars?

[Tickdoc]

Day one update: picked up my Tesla Y rental today at SFO.

Drove to nearest in n out first ( sorry, but it is my traditional first stop when visiting the left coast), then straight to Santa Rosa.

Found the nearest supercharger and backed in with about 10 others. Car was 97% when I picked it up and here is a pic of it when I plugged it in. 99mi drained it to 60ish% and it took about 30 min to get it back to about 85%. Cost of charge was less than $12.

First thoughts are it is a little loud at speed, has a few nvh issues, and navigating the touchscreen is a pain when driving, but I’m sure I could adapt to it. Seats are comfortable. Interior is pleasant. View out the front is Great, view out the back is dismal. Instantaneous Speed is fun but strangely boring.

We’ll see how we get along for the rest of the week.

[Dave]

https://empoweringcolorado.org/2021/...l-electricity/

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Day one update: picked up my Tesla Y rental today at SFO.

Just curious: Did they give you some sort of tesla-101 course before you left?