OT: Boeing 737 MAX

[zmudshark]

This can't be good:

Boeing Has ‘Severe Situation’ After Parts Left in Tankers, Says Top USAF Buyer

[verticaldoug]

Beyond the current tariff tif, China leading the charge should not be surprising.



Boeing Troubles Could Be a Blessing for China’s Comac C919
2019-03-14 08:00:29.38 GMT


By Bloomberg News
(Bloomberg Businessweek) -- Airlines worried about buying
from Boeing Co. have another supplier besides Airbus SE to
choose from: the Chinese government. The state-owned Commercial
Aircraft Corp. of China, or Comac, is building the C919, a
narrowbody passenger plane with a capacity of about 170 that the
company says has more than 800 orders worldwide. It will compete
with the Boeing 737 Max 8—as well as the Airbus 320neo—as part
of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s ambitious gamble to build an
aerospace industry from scratch and break Western companies’
grip on the skies.
China grounded the Max 8 within hours of the Ethiopian
Airlines crash, leading a global wave of suspensions. “These
kinds of events provide an opportunity for Comac to get their
foot in the door,” says Chad Ohlandt, a senior engineer at Rand
Corp. in Washington. “If they’re smart, they’re going knocking
on doors of whatever 10 airlines are considering buying
narrowbody aircraft.”
The company, which started test flights of the C919 in
2017, has received 815 orders from 28 customers, including GE
Capital Aviation Services. Comac didn’t respond to requests for
comment.
Number of planes to be delivered to Chinese airlines over
the next two decades: 9,000
Beijing’s aspirations extend beyond the C919. Comac is
working with Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp. to develop the
widebody CR929 that could eventually fly long-haul routes such
as Beijing to New York. State-owned enterprises are developing a
complete range of aircraft, including widebodies, turboprops,
business jets, helicopters, seaplanes, and even zeppelins.
“Strategically speaking, aviation manufacturing is a national
imperative,” says Yu Zhanfu, a partner at Roland Berger Strategy
Consultants in Beijing who focuses on aerospace and defense.
“Once you have aviation manufacturing reaching economies of
scale, it will lift the entire industrial chain.” Comac said in
November that China’s aviation market will take delivery of
9,000 planes, worth $1.3 trillion, over the next two decades.
Two-thirds of those will be single-aisle planes like the Boeing
737 and the C919.
Shanghai-based Comac is building a training center for
maintenance engineers, flight attendants, and other airline
employees who will fly the C919 and CR929. “They are doing four,
five, or six things in parallel,” Marc Szepan, a lecturer in
international business at Oxford’s Said Business School, says of
China’s master plan. “They’re firing on all cylinders.”
That puts Boeing in the potentially awkward position of
competing against one of its partners. Comac and Boeing are co-
owners of an assembly center south of Shanghai that opened in
December by delivering a 737 Max 8 to Air China. Another Comac
plane, the ARJ21 regional jet, competes with aircraft made by
Embraer SA, which is also forming a joint venture with Boeing.
The buyers so far are smaller carriers, including Chengdu
Airlines and Genghis Khan Airlines. “Comac is a great competitor
and we respect them a lot,” Boeing said in an email. “They are
also a great collaborator.” China accounted for about 14 percent
of Boeing’s revenue last year, according to data compiled by
Bloomberg.
But it’s not all clear skies for Xi. Chinese planes don’t
have the safety track record that Western ones do. More
important, no Chinese company has the capacity to design and
produce engines for commercial jets, says Yong Teng, a partner
with L.E.K. Consulting in Shanghai. The C919’s engines are by
CFM International, a joint venture of General Electric Co. and
France’s Safran SA.
That technology is at the heart of charges the U.S.
Department of Justice brought against two Chinese nationals in
October. It said they were intelligence officers who allegedly
tried to hack the computer systems of companies to obtain
information related to commercial aircraft engines. The U.S. has
also unsealed charges against an alleged Chinese agent and
accused him of conspiring to steal trade secrets from U.S.
aviation and aerospace companies. The Chinese government
dismissed the charges. Says Nicholas Eftimiades, a lecturer in
the School of Public Affairs at Pennsylvania State University in
Harrisburg: “Aerospace technology is the No. 1 target for China
espionage.”—With Bruce Einhorn and Dong Lyu

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by benb

To be honest despite being skeptical of the "jump to conclustions" aspect of all this I think POTUS did a good thing here... he's actually stepped up and taken responsibility for this.

And the Chinese are giddy that once more, he does their bidding..

The Comac C919 is a narrow-body twinjet airliner developed by Chinese aerospace manufacturer Comac. The development programme was launched in 2008 and the aircraft's Maiden flight was on 5 May 2017. Its first commercial deliveries are expected in 2021 to China Eastern Airlines. The aircraft is designed to carry 156 to 168 passengers in a normal operating configuration up to 5,555 km (3000 nmi). It is intended to compete primarily with the Boeing 737 MAX and Airbus A320neo. As of 31 August 2018, Comac has 1008 commitments including 305 firm orders, mostly from Chinese leasing companies or airlines with the exception of GE.

Oops, right above, same thing..China showing leadership, once again, on the world stage while the US turns inward..what a surprise.

[Tony T]

When the 2nd 737Max8 crashed, the similarity to the 1st crash was enough to ground the plane pending more data.

Why Investigators Fear the Two Boeing 737s Crashed for Similar Reasons


.

[DCilliams]

Excerpt: Another former leader of the NTSB, Peter Goelz, told NPR’s Morning Edition on Wednesday, responding to questions about the FAA’s handling of the MAX-8 crisis, “There are not enough inspectors on the payroll for ‘gotcha’oversight.”

He added that when European regulators grounded the MAX-8 he had such respect for them that it led him for the first time to be concerned about the safety of the MAX-8.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethiop...efore?ref=home

[isalgue]

Originally Posted by Elefantino

Considering today's tweets, someone must be shorting Boeing stock.

For sure

[redir]

Originally Posted by benb

To be honest despite being skeptical of the "jump to conclustions" aspect of all this I think POTUS did a good thing here... he's actually stepped up and taken responsibility for this.

Now.. can we get some hysteria to get numerous models of car "grounded" or something? Cars have gotten way safer the last 10 years but they are still something like 200X more dangerous than flying airlines.

Business Insider published a story today that Boeing had intended to install the software update but the government shut down delayed it for 5 weeks.

Also this administration has yet to install a head to the FAA. The Pres wanted to have his personal pilot lead the FAA LOL.

A little too late.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by redir

Business Insider published a story today that Boeing had intended to install the software update but the government shut down delayed it for 5 weeks.

Also this administration has yet to install a head to the FAA. The Pres wanted to have his personal pilot lead the FAA LOL.

A little too late.

"Later on Wednesday, acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell denied that the shutdown played a role."
"We just got confirmation that the shutdown did not cause any delay in work on the software -- the software addition to the MAX," Elwell said." https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/polit...are/index.html

[redir]

Originally Posted by Tony T

"Later on Wednesday, acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell denied that the shutdown played a role."
"We just got confirmation that the shutdown did not cause any delay in work on the software -- the software addition to the MAX," Elwell said." https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/polit...are/index.html

Yes they said that in the BI article. It's called damage control

https://www.businessinsider.com/boei...Va3tmgyaKYrl6E

[Tony T]

Damage control for Boing or the FAA?? (…if there is any difference).

"The roots of this crisis can be found in a major change the agency instituted in its regulatory responsibility in 2005. Rather than naming and supervising its own “designated airworthiness representatives,” the agency decided to allow Boeing and other manufacturers who qualified under the revised procedures to select their own employees to certify the safety of their aircraft. In justifying this change, the agency said at the time that it would save the aviation industry about $25 billion from 2006 to 2015. Therefore, the manufacturer is providing safety oversight of itself. This is a worrying move toward industry self-certification." https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/o...-grounded.html

[redir]

Originally Posted by Tony T

Damage control for Boing or the FAA?? (…if there is any difference).

"The roots of this crisis can be found in a major change the agency instituted in its regulatory responsibility in 2005. Rather than naming and supervising its own “designated airworthiness representatives,” the agency decided to allow Boeing and other manufacturers who qualified under the revised procedures to select their own employees to certify the safety of their aircraft. In justifying this change, the agency said at the time that it would save the aviation industry about $25 billion from 2006 to 2015. Therefore, the manufacturer is providing safety oversight of itself. This is a worrying move toward industry self-certification." https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/o...-grounded.html

Ugg! What could possibly go wrong?

---

Doesn't Brazil make a lot of airplanes too?

[ghcs]

Originally Posted by NHAero

FWIW, my wife was flying on a 737 MAX later this week and we changed the reservation to another plane.

I was scheduled to fly on a Max8 in a couple of weeks and my wife made me change it before they were grounded by Transport Canada.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

Beyond the current tariff tif, China leading the charge should not be surprising.



Boeing Troubles Could Be a Blessing for China’s Comac C919
2019-03-14 08:00:29.38 GMT


By Bloomberg News
(Bloomberg Businessweek) -- Airlines worried about buying
from Boeing Co. have another supplier besides Airbus SE to
choose from: the Chinese government. The state-owned Commercial
Aircraft Corp. of China, or Comac, is building the C919, a
narrowbody passenger plane with a capacity of about 170 that the
company says has more than 800 orders worldwide. It will compete
with the Boeing 737 Max 8—as well as the Airbus 320neo—as part
of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s ambitious gamble to build an
aerospace industry from scratch and break Western companies’
grip on the skies.
China grounded the Max 8 within hours of the Ethiopian
Airlines crash, leading a global wave of suspensions. “These
kinds of events provide an opportunity for Comac to get their
foot in the door,” says Chad Ohlandt, a senior engineer at Rand
Corp. in Washington. “If they’re smart, they’re going knocking
on doors of whatever 10 airlines are considering buying
narrowbody aircraft.”
The company, which started test flights of the C919 in
2017, has received 815 orders from 28 customers, including GE
Capital Aviation Services. Comac didn’t respond to requests for
comment.
Number of planes to be delivered to Chinese airlines over
the next two decades: 9,000
Beijing’s aspirations extend beyond the C919. Comac is
working with Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp. to develop the
widebody CR929 that could eventually fly long-haul routes such
as Beijing to New York. State-owned enterprises are developing a
complete range of aircraft, including widebodies, turboprops,
business jets, helicopters, seaplanes, and even zeppelins.
“Strategically speaking, aviation manufacturing is a national
imperative,” says Yu Zhanfu, a partner at Roland Berger Strategy
Consultants in Beijing who focuses on aerospace and defense.
“Once you have aviation manufacturing reaching economies of
scale, it will lift the entire industrial chain.” Comac said in
November that China’s aviation market will take delivery of
9,000 planes, worth $1.3 trillion, over the next two decades.
Two-thirds of those will be single-aisle planes like the Boeing
737 and the C919.
Shanghai-based Comac is building a training center for
maintenance engineers, flight attendants, and other airline
employees who will fly the C919 and CR929. “They are doing four,
five, or six things in parallel,” Marc Szepan, a lecturer in
international business at Oxford’s Said Business School, says of
China’s master plan. “They’re firing on all cylinders.”
That puts Boeing in the potentially awkward position of
competing against one of its partners. Comac and Boeing are co-
owners of an assembly center south of Shanghai that opened in
December by delivering a 737 Max 8 to Air China. Another Comac
plane, the ARJ21 regional jet, competes with aircraft made by
Embraer SA, which is also forming a joint venture with Boeing.
The buyers so far are smaller carriers, including Chengdu
Airlines and Genghis Khan Airlines. “Comac is a great competitor
and we respect them a lot,” Boeing said in an email. “They are
also a great collaborator.” China accounted for about 14 percent
of Boeing’s revenue last year, according to data compiled by
Bloomberg.
But it’s not all clear skies for Xi. Chinese planes don’t
have the safety track record that Western ones do. More
important, no Chinese company has the capacity to design and
produce engines for commercial jets, says Yong Teng, a partner
with L.E.K. Consulting in Shanghai. The C919’s engines are by
CFM International, a joint venture of General Electric Co. and
France’s Safran SA.
That technology is at the heart of charges the U.S.
Department of Justice brought against two Chinese nationals in
October. It said they were intelligence officers who allegedly
tried to hack the computer systems of companies to obtain
information related to commercial aircraft engines. The U.S. has
also unsealed charges against an alleged Chinese agent and
accused him of conspiring to steal trade secrets from U.S.
aviation and aerospace companies. The Chinese government
dismissed the charges. Says Nicholas Eftimiades, a lecturer in
the School of Public Affairs at Pennsylvania State University in
Harrisburg: “Aerospace technology is the No. 1 target for China
espionage.”—With Bruce Einhorn and Dong Lyu

Cheap Chinese aircraft filling the skies. Now that's a cause for concern. I'd rather fly on a Max 8 than one of them right now.

[Jaybee]

So apparently during the Lion Air crash, the plane wasn't equipped with a warning alarm for the AOA sensor issue because that was a cost-added upgrade package from Boeing.

Guardrails cost extra. Capitalism will keep us safe.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...n-the-737-max/

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Cheap Chinese aircraft filling the skies. Now that's a cause for concern. I'd rather fly on a Max 8 than one of them right now.

You do know both the Dreamliner and 737 have parts and components from China, and 1/3 of all boeings have major components made by the chinese along with Airbus. And by the way, Boeing is finishing a plant in cooperation with COMAC to finish 737s in China. I think that was announced in 2015.