Veterans Day - Never Forget

[skiezo]

Did 7 years as a medic in a Ranger battalion split between 2 different time periods.
I was in the former Yugoslavia for over a year attached to a Bosnian SF unit.
That one I still have dreams about from time to time and they are not pleasant.
I can still smell the scent of mass graves,a scent and sight that will be with me for years to come even after 30+years.
A few years later in the early 90s was in north Africa in a city in Somalia and had little kids shooting at us. I just had 2 pieces of medal removed from my back from that visit.
Did a lot of training with the FFL and some elite forces from Egypt and Israel . Now them are some badd a$$ dudes.

[drewski]

Originally Posted by cachagua

Uhhhh, ...because it's about what exactly?

The fatal misconception is that history and current events can be separated. If we're censored from talking about political issues, well and good, I don't mind that, but let's not delude ourselves that when we talk about something like remembering history, that it's "not about" politics. Nothing could be more central to politics.

We just aren't supposed to talk about it. Which is not at all the same.

I'll offer this suggestion to the community: Read Wilhelm II's rhetoric leading up to his invasion of Belgium, and George Bush II's rhetoric leading up to his invasion of Iraq. Comparing their rationalizations will allow you to decide whether pretending the present and the past are two different things is realistic.

Joxster, thank you for being willing to call a spade a spade. And Bruce, it would have been quite enough to respond, "You can't say that here".

To those who have an issue with Cachaguas statement : American exceptionalism is a real thing which has been and is being used in to rationalize all kinds of hijinx. If you have not read anything by Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Bertrand Russell you need to. Chomsky is one of the few people who actually uses the scientific method to dissect our history.

[drewski]

Originally Posted by cachagua

Uhhhh, ...because it's about what exactly?

The fatal misconception is that history and current events can be separated. If we're censored from talking about political issues, well and good, I don't mind that, but let's not delude ourselves that when we talk about something like remembering history, that it's "not about" politics. Nothing could be more central to politics.

We just aren't supposed to talk about it. Which is not at all the same.

I'll offer this suggestion to the community: Read Wilhelm II's rhetoric leading up to his invasion of Belgium, and George Bush II's rhetoric leading up to his invasion of Iraq. Comparing their rationalizations will allow you to decide whether pretending the present and the past are two different things is realistic.

Joxster, thank you for being willing to call a spade a spade. And Bruce, it would have been quite enough to respond, "You can't say that here".

Bertrand Russell:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt

[kevinvc]

Originally Posted by bigbill

Service members swear loyalty to the democratically elected leader and follow the orders given.

No they don't. They swear an oath the US Constitution, not a specific person. The POTUS is the Commander in Chief, but our service members do not swear allegiance to him as an individual.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by kevinvc

No they don't. They swear an oath the US Constitution, not a specific person. The POTUS is the Commander in Chief, but our service members do not swear allegiance to him as an individual.

"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[kevinvc]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Thank you for documenting my point. Allegiance is to the Constitution. Obeying orders by the POTUS and officers is limited by the UCMJ and is secondary to the first.

[ptourkin]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Today and this thread are about taking a moment to remember and honor those who gave served this country.

All the other conversation is for another day.

BK

Since it's another day now:

I served for 10 years in uniform and a few more out of. I've always found thank yous for my service hollow. Many of us served more out of economic necessity than anything else and although we tried to do the best job possible, we were just doing a job no more special than the job many do, albeit with the possibility of great physical harm.

Much of the current obeisance to the troops comes from people who did not serve and overstate the realities of who we are and were. I served with some great people and some monster pieces of **** - a lot of them. Neither were more or less prevalent than when I worked at the world's largest law firm.

Anyone who in this almost 2019 still promotes this "thank you for protecting our freedom" thing is ignorant, willfully or otherwise of the history of American foreign military action since at least WWII, if we are being charitable. Philandering around Southeast Asia and the Middle East have done nothing to enhance our freedom and have seriously harmed many of the people you're thanking and for what?

In the sense of recognizing people who have left their families behind to do so some hard work, Veteran's Day is a nice gesture. The current politicization of it, mainly by (chickenhawk) civilians in order to whitewash history and reality is cynical and shallow.

[ftf]

Originally Posted by ptourkin

Since it's another day now:

I served for 10 years in uniform and a few more out of. I've always found thank yous for my service hollow. Many of us served more out of economic necessity than anything else and although we tried to do the best job possible, we were just doing a job no more special than the job many do, albeit with the possibility of great physical harm.

Much of the current obeisance to the troops comes from people who did not serve and overstate the realities of who we are and were. I served with some great people and some monster pieces of **** - a lot of them. Neither were more or less prevalent than when I worked at the world's largest law firm.

Anyone who in this almost 2019 still promotes this "thank you for protecting our freedom" thing is ignorant, willfully or otherwise of the history of American foreign military action since at least WWII, if we are being charitable. Philandering around Southeast Asia and the Middle East have done nothing to enhance our freedom and have seriously harmed many of the people you're thanking and for what?

In the sense of recognizing people who have left their families behind to do so some hard work, Veteran's Day is a nice gesture. The current politicization of it, mainly by (chickenhawk) civilians in order to whitewash history and reality is cynical and shallow.

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by kevinvc

Thank you for documenting my point. Allegiance is to the Constitution. Obeying orders by the POTUS and officers is limited by the UCMJ and is secondary to the first.

Allegiance is to the Constitutional Government which includes civilian leadership of the military. As a member of the military, my purpose was not to protect the rights of Americans, it was to protect the country and it's form of government which ensures our rights. I served under Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama. Some I liked more than others, but my loyalty never wavered.

[Bruce K]

Start another thread if you’d like to try but this one is done

BK