Spin Off Of The Titanium Race Bike Thread

[biker72]

Just wondering why there is such a huge difference in price between the top tier titanium bikes,(Moots, Seven, Spectrum..etc), and the lower end (Lynskey, Hab, and others).

I've ridden Serotta and Seven titanium bikes pretty extensively. I'd put the ride quality of my recently purchased Lynskey right up there with both the Serotta and Seven. Are the top tier bikes really that much better??

[Gummee]

Define 'better.'

IDK the answer either, but anecdotally there seem to be more Lynskys going back with cracks than the 'higher end' brands.


M

[eddief]

A lot has to with mystique and the decals. I'd guess there is a tiny difference between my Carver and the higher priced offerings. And I am not even sure that statement is true. No one does a big wow ever about my Carver but if I had a fine Moots or Moots decals on my Carver I'd get more attention and feel better about myself and my station in life.

[Bentley]

I have owned older Litespeeds (originally Lynskey) and have had very good service from them, they ride well, they are reasonably light and the welds look good.

I will add that Litespeed was selected by JPL to do Titanium welding on a couple of Mars Missions so they do have reasonable credibility welding Ti.

I think that there is clearly a number of builders, Bespoke type, that really do not try to build a large number of bikes and they focus on customizing the bike to the rider. My sense is that attention to detail results in a very well made bike and at the end, a very satisfied owner.

Similarly, Companies like Moots build a very good bike but they are making more "standard size" frames so they clearly have a "brand recognition" thing going on. Add to that that they do a very good job so again a lot of happy buyers.

I think companies like Lynskey likely also build a good frame, but they undermine their product by selling on Ebay which likely affects the "brand"

I think Habanero bikes are a good value, but basically its a sourced frame from a Chinese Factory and the attention to details are likely not there. You could add other "domestic" name brands to this category.

I think at the end of the day, if the bicycle meets your needs then its a good bike. Also, the proof is in the service after the sale, if you have a problem.

My feelings on this subject. I read good things and sometimes bad about both of these brands.

Ray

[Alaska Mike]

I have both relatively high-end (Moots), mid-tier (Lynskey) and low end (generic Russian) titanium frames. I generally can't see the stickers when I'm riding them (unless I'm doing something wrong).

I can't really speak about the Lynskey, because I haven't finished the build. It's an Urbano, so it's going to be kind of a battleship when built and that's probably why my enthusiasm has waned since acquiring it. I may love it in the end, but I'm just not there yet.

The Russian ti frame was purchased cheaply and outperformed my initially low expectations. It was the bike that sold me on the material, after having a few aluminum and carbon bikes trashed by TSA over the years. It cleans up easily, performs amazingly well given its endurance geometry, and hasn't given me a hint of trouble.

I have two Moots- a Compact and a Vamoots DR. The Vamoots DR I haven't warmed to just yet, because I haven't put a lot of miles on it. Instead 99% of my riding this past season was on the Compact. It's ten years old and pretty much everything I like in a bike. It's just a stock frame, but it's one of the few frames that magically hits all of the right numbers for me in terms of fit. I'm still kicking myself for not jumping at the Compact and Compact SL that popped up here at the end of the summer, because this bike just makes me happy.

I have nine bikes right now. If I had to sell all but one, I wouldn't hesitate to select the Moots Compact as the one I would keep. And it isn't about stickers, most of which I've peeled off (getting ratty).

As for your original question, there's also this.

[zzy]

One of the major differences is the tubing itself. US made vs. Chinese made, seamed vs seamless, butted vs straight gauge.

A well made Ti bike will ride great whether it was made in Taiwan or Steamboat Springs. My Motorbacon Ti has been an absolute pleasure and held up to 5+ year of commuting.

[GonaSovereign]

Off the top of my head:

• Tubing is sourced from a more expensive source, or made in a more expensive market
• Butted tubing
• Shaped or heavily worked tubes
• Custom-drawn tubes
• Dropouts, bottom brackets, head tubes are unique to the brand instead of purchased off the shelf, and/or options are offered
• Finishing work options
• employee wages higher in some markets, and in-demand skills warrant higher wages
• Employers who pay an overall better wage, and/or offer healthcare
• Finishing quality, finishing options.
• Marketing, including racing programs
• brand value

Of that list, only the last one doesn't have a directly measurable cost associated with it, although it's generally an output of all the points above it.

[djg21]

This is an ongoing debate.

Higher end Ti bikes generally are made from different tubes sets. Lynskey uses 6:4 titanium for its main tubes in its upper non-helix model (440). 6:4 is lighter and stiffer than 3:2, but is available only in sheets, and it must be formed into tubes and the tubes therefore have seams. One benefit is that the tubes can be multi-shaped, i.e., not round, and biaxial to add lateral rigidity to the BB. The Litespeed Vortex similarly was built using 6:4. I rode a Vortex that I loved, and now own a Lynskey r440 that is a great bike. It sees mostly trainer time now that is 12 years old and I just got a new Allied, but if I were to jump into a crit, I’d ride the Lynskey.

Higher end 3:2 bikes often are built with butted Ti tubes.

Other than this, you pay for the decal on the downtube. Lynskeys, especially at the higher end, are as good as any Moots or other high-end bike.

[biker72]

Originally Posted by djg21

Other than this, you pay for the decal on the downtube. Lynskeys, especially at the higher end, are as good as any Moots or other high-end bike.

So far this has been my experience. I have ridden a couple of Moots at the bike shop for a short time and my Lynskey rides just as well. Maybe I just need to change decals..

[redir]

I think brand recognition has a lot to do with it too. Right here on the Paceline for example we fawn over Moots much more then Lynsky. It's just the way things work. Demand goes up with name brand recognition and the price follows.

[fa63]

I think this is a pretty good summary. When I toured the Moots factory last year, it made me realize what they are asking for a frameset is not unreasonable at all when you consider a lot of these factors.

Originally Posted by GonaSovereign

Off the top of my head:

• Tubing is sourced from a more expensive source, or made in a more expensive market
• Butted tubing
• Shaped or heavily worked tubes
• Custom-drawn tubes
• Dropouts, bottom brackets, head tubes are unique to the brand instead of purchased off the shelf, and/or options are offered
• Finishing work options
• Employee wages higher in some markets, and in-demand skills warrant higher wages
• Employers who pay an overall better wage, and/or offer healthcare
• Finishing quality, finishing options.
• Marketing, including racing programs
• Brand value

[Butch]

I'll add a couple things that apply to Moots specifically and I am certain some other builders as well.
Consistency of quality is a big part of what the value add is. That comes from many of the points made, materials, QC, prioritizing quality over quantity or price. The US materials are as much as 4 X more per foot for thin walled tubing. The US tubing is a lot more consistent than Chinese or Russian thin walled tubes. In my time at Moots about 18,000 frames came through. We were able to easily follow through with repairs or replacements on warranties because the number is so low. Having the right people trained to do the job correctly, using the best tooling and materials are key. Of the frames that came through in that time I remember fewer than 10 (more like 5 or less) road frames that came back for warranty.

Also the cost of running a business with good pay and full benefits, in order to retain that consistency, and has the full support of a dealer network to back up the product from beginning to end is costly but invaluable. I also will add that even though Moots is known for their stock sized bikes about 12% of the frames sold my last year were custom.

[MattTuck]

Given the same tires (especially big tires), wheels, cock pit set up, I'd be amazed if anyone, on a blinded basis, could tell the difference between two titanium frames.

[kingpin75s]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

Given the same tires (especially big tires), wheels, cock pit set up, I'd be amazed if anyone, on a blinded basis, could tell the difference between two titanium frames.

I would disagree on this.

The ride feel of my old Lynskey Cooper CX was very different than my Eriksen RCR. I use these as an example only because tube choices are very different but tire clearance and purpose is the same. Both frames feel very different over washboards as an example with the same 35c tires. The Lynskey flexed more with the small diameter CS's and would absorb washboard hits more, while the RCR feels like it remains stiffer and literally glides over the tops of the bumps.

It is what the bike is built for that matters more than the material IMHO.

[redir]

Yeah well I would not recommend trying that blinded test.