What was the first top shifting groupset?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kontact

Kinda/sorta. Suntour Command shifters can be run on friction while retaining the same return to center operation as dual control does. Same with Ergo for the front derailleur, as well as some versions of Gripshift. So indexing isn't a necessity for this type of shifter.

I used Suntour Command shifters for a number of years, and they do/did not have a return to center function. The mechanism was the same as for Suntour's downtube index shifters, except replacing the traditional lever arm with a "wingnut" shaped lever arm. The Suntour Command shifters in index mode allowed me to shift when sprinting or standing. In friction mode, trying to shift when sprinting or standing was less than satisfactory.

The standard technique for friction shifting was to shift the derailleur a little beyond the desired sprocket ("overshift"), and then move the derailleur back a little to center it under the sprocket. This basically requires there to be two fingers on the lever, one finger to do the initial (over) shift, and the other finger on the other side of the lever to move it back to center the derailleur. Two finger shifting is easily down with down tube shifters but dual control shifters typically use a single finger to shift, so the "overshift and re-center" technique would be difficult to do if dual control shifters used friction shifting. Indexed shifting systems typically have an "overshift and re-center" mechanism built in, so that they can be operated with a single finger. This makes dual control levers much better suited to indexed shifting.

Front derailleurs by their nature require less fine positioning than rear derailleurs, and for dual chainrings the shifters essentially just have to lever positions. So indexing is much less required for dual chainring systems. But triple chainrings is a different story. Trying to do single finger friction shifting is not nearly as easy with friction shifters on triple chainrings, and Ergo shifting is less satisfactory for triple chainrings. Indexed shifting is much preferred for triple chainring dual control levers, as is found with PowerShift systems.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I used Suntour Command shifters for a number of years, and they do/did not have a return to center function. The mechanism was the same as for Suntour's downtube index shifters, except replacing the traditional lever arm with a "wingnut" shaped lever arm. The Suntour Command shifters in index mode allowed me to shift when sprinting or standing. In friction mode, trying to shift when sprinting or standing was less than satisfactory.

The standard technique for friction shifting was to shift the derailleur a little beyond the desired sprocket ("overshift"), and then move the derailleur back a little to center it under the sprocket. This basically requires there to be two fingers on the lever, one finger to do the initial (over) shift, and the other finger on the other side of the lever to move it back to center the derailleur. Two finger shifting is easily down with down tube shifters but dual control shifters typically use a single finger to shift, so the "overshift and re-center" technique would be difficult to do if dual control shifters used friction shifting. Indexed shifting systems typically have an "overshift and re-center" mechanism built in, so that they can be operated with a single finger. This makes dual control levers much better suited to indexed shifting.

Front derailleurs by their nature require less fine positioning than rear derailleurs, and for dual chainrings the shifters essentially just have to lever positions. So indexing is much less required for dual chainring systems. But triple chainrings is a different story. Trying to do single finger friction shifting is not nearly as easy with friction shifters on triple chainrings, and Ergo shifting is less satisfactory for triple chainrings. Indexed shifting is much preferred for triple chainring dual control levers, as is found with PowerShift systems.

Sorry, I misunderstood the Suntour system.

I wasn't saying indexing is a bad thing, just that it isn't a necessity for a recentering shift system, like Ergo. You could make it work, just like you can make a friction bar end work - but index makes it easier.

Lately I have been riding a Mavic friction derailleur with Simplex retrofriction DT levers and an 8 speed Shimano HG cassette. With the Mavic's adjustable pulley cage in the right spot, no overshifting is needed, either. Overshifting is more a product of less shift-friendly sprocket profiles and greatly displaced jockey pulley's than anything provided by the shift lever. Shimano levers don't overshift.

[Hindmost]

[QUOTE=Kontact;2368503)
Lately I have been riding a Mavic friction derailleur with Simplex retrofriction DT levers and an 8 speed Shimano HG cassette. With the Mavic's adjustable pulley cage in the right spot, no overshifting is needed, either...[/QUOTE]

What chain are you using for the Mavic setup?

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

What chain are you using for the Mavic setup?

It's an old Shimano 8. I'm sure it would work the same with any other modern 8 speed chain.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Kontact

Was Valentino wrong about pros and friction shifting? Do we know that the folks in 1991 and 1992 that have the ability to index weren't using using retrofriction or had their DA levers set to friction mode? One of the pro objections to indexing was the noise telegraphing the rider's next move.

That 1991 picture I posted of Lemond looks more like a Campy Retrofriction shifter than a Syncro mounted on his DT.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of pros didn't use indexing until they jumped to STI/Ergo/Zap/Gripshift systems that didn't have friction modes. I recall even amateurs in the early '90s with 105 equipped bikes using the friction mode on their DTs for racing.

No, he thought 'enthusiasts and pros would stay with friction shifters. Those pictures, the Campag bikes were friction shifters.

It was. shimano guys used index DT shifters but the Campag camp really went all in to ERGO when it came out. Before that, retrofriction.(altho Indurain used 'Syncro3' DT shifters in 1992. As far as Syncro 1/2 DT shifters and CDA/A-B Chorus and Athena..those WERE mated
and even thos 'index' rear ders, didn't really work all that well. The 'pick and speed and freewheel/cogset, insert gig was very revolutionary and fortold of the ability to repair ERGO..but again, until the better, more Suntour-esque rear ders of 1991/2, didn't work all that well.

Notice Hampsten with STI...1992

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

As far as Syncro 1/2 DT shifters and CDA/A-B Chorus and Athena..those WERE mated
and even thos 'index' rear ders, didn't really work all that well.

My Athena Syncro II has been working fine for 29 years. The upper pulley tracks close to all the sprockets and the index points align perfectly with Shimano/Sachs spacing. With the 13-25 HG freewheel I'm currently using it not only shifts accurately but under very high load.

Indexing is not complicated when the sprockets are well designed for shifting - no real overshifting is required.

[Kontact]

For people into such details, this article from 1988 talks about some fundamental design issues with indexing and compares the cable pull of standard Shimano, 7400, Suntour and Syncro 1, and discusses overshifting:

http://www.khurramhashmi.org/khurram...g_guide-4.html

(Something of interest from this article - Suntour used 7400 pull ratios, for those trying to Frankstein different systems together.)


People talk about how Shimano got their derailleurs just right, leaving Suntour in the dust. But I think that Shimano's accuracy really came from their sprocket tooth and chain sideplate shapes, as well as having the longest (at the time) cable pull ratio to minimize upshift friction and autoshifting. Suntour and Chorus, Athena, Croce derailleurs were all capable of keeping the chain close to the sprockets but the systems suffered from other issues. At least with Syncro you could choose to use better shifting freewheels, and when I purchased my Athena group in 1989 everyone agreed that Shimano Dura Ace or Sante 7 speed freewheels were the best bet.

[aellaguno]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

As has been noted, there was no single transition from down tube friction shifters to indexed integrated brake/shifter levers. And, of course, neither indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifter levers immediately replaced previous systems - in both cases, they were introduced on top tier component groups, and then filtered down to lower level groups in the following years.

There had been several attempts at indexed derailleur shifting for decades, but the first widely distributed system was the Shimano Positron system from the mid-'70s. This was only used on low-end groups, and it did not work very well, so was abandoned in the early '80s. The first successful indexed system was introduced with the '85 Shimano Dura-Ace SIS system. Campagnolo attempted to follow in '87 with their indexed Syncro down tube shifter system, but this system performed poorly, and was abandoned by '91 or '92. The first success Campagnolo indexed shifting system was released essentially concurrently with their Ergo-power integrated brake/shifter levers.

So, if you want to stick with Campagnolo, and in particular the Record groupset, then you could choose C-Record downtube (7spd) friction shifters as the last popular down tube shifters, and '92 Ergo-power 8spd as the first popular handlebar mounted shifters.

Those two groupsets are really nice looking... I currently have the C-Record, now I just need to find the 92 Ergo power 8spd group.

Thanks everyone for the posts, really good info here.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

...Here again Campagnolo was a bit of a follower. Their Exa-Drive sprockets, which were similar to Shimano's HyperGlide sprockets, were released in 1994, two years after Ergopower was release. (Similarly, Shimano was still using Uni-Glide sprockets with their road groups when they introduced their STI brake/shift levers, and didn't bring HyperGlide to their road groups until the following year.)**...

I'm wondering now if you have the years correct as to the year that STI appeared in production form, versus the year that the Hyperglide road cassettes became standard.

I looked at the 1990 Raleigh Lightweights catalog and saw that several of their better road models were using 7s Hyperglide cassettes already, when STI had not yet appeared on any of their bikes.

The 1991 Team Technium 753 model was I believe their first to include STI, and was equipped with 8s Hyperglide from the start. That bike was well known for being the low-price leader among the new STI-equipped bikes that year and sold for just $1999.

Perhaps Campy was alone in still using their previous ("alphabet") cog system with any ~"integrated" levers, at least if we leave Suntour out of the discussion?

My first Ergolever bike was equipped with 8s alphabet cogs, around 1994, but it was a used-bike purchase and so I had assumed it was probably pieced together since it had an older Italian frame with 126mm spacing. I am surprised to hear that Ergolevers were used from the start with those primitive cogs since they did not reliably sustain pedaling loads while shifting to a larger cog.

Someone else mentioned a Campy 7s cassette/hub, but I don't recall ever seeing one. I was racing motorcycles from '89 thru '91 and somehow missed that completely.

[Kontact]

Hyperglide came out in 1990. Dura Ace STI came was available for sale in 1991. Dura Ace STI was used on race bikes with IG cassettes in 1989.

Overall, HG preceded road STI.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kontact

Hyperglide came out in 1990. Dura Ace STI came was available for sale in 1991. Dura Ace STI was used on race bikes with IG cassettes in 1989.

Overall, HG preceded road STI.

Well, yes and no. Both HG and STI started with the MTB groups (late '80s), and it took a couple of years for both to reach the road groups. The first road STI (Dura-Ace) was an 8spd group, and when it was first used ('89) there was not yet a road 8spd HG cassette.

[mt2u77]

Originally Posted by thirdgenbird

I think these are the best looking intergrated levers ever made. Maybe the best looking shifters and best looking brake levers independently.

Keyword-- "looking." In terms of function (as brake levers), not so much. I've got a bike from that era, and the combo of the lever shape plus the deep drop bars of the day makes braking from the hoods damn near impossible unless you have gorilla hands. Add in single pivot brakes and old school pads, and they're more like speed modulators than brakes, at least by today's standards.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Well, yes and no. Both HG and STI started with the MTB groups (late '80s), and it took a couple of years for both to reach the road groups. The first road STI (Dura-Ace) was an 8spd group, and when it was first used ('89) there was not yet a road 8spd HG cassette.

Not sure what you are correcting. I mentioned '89, '90 and '91.

I said "overall" because the only thing that was done in '89 was the prototype testing of a few cobbled together units made out of MTB parts. The actual 7400 shifter premiered in the peloton in 1990, concurrent with the CS-7401 HG cassette.

So when you said that the road shifters preceded HG for road, that's only true of some crude prototypes. It did not sound like you were talking about MTB STI, either. But if you were, HG came out in the '89 catalog for Deore XT, but STI wasn't until the 1990 catalog.

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/.../Shimano89.pdf

Production wise, a consumer has never been able to buy an STI shifter that didn't have an HG cassette available for it, MTB or road.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kontact

So when you said that the road shifters preceded HG for road, that's only true of some crude prototypes. It did not sound like you were talking about MTB STI, either. But if you were, HG came out in the '89 catalog for Deore XT, but STI wasn't until the 1990 catalog.

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/.../Shimano89.pdf

Production wise, a consumer has never been able to buy an STI shifter that didn't have an HG cassette available for it, MTB or road.

Okay, you got me there. I was sure I remembered that MTB group STI shifters (called "Rapidfire") preceded road STI, but I guess they were actually at nearly the same time. (But I did correctly remember that HG arrive in MTB groups before road groups - although it wasn't much before.)

Surely, the decade between 1984 and 1994 saw huge changes in (derailleur) shifting technology, going from friction shifting down tube shifters, single spring flat parallelogram derailleurs, and symmetric cog profiles, to indexed dual control shifters, dual spring slant parallelogram derailleurs, and ramped/gated cog profiles. The drivetrain companies that could not keep up with these changes (Simplex, Huret, Suntour) disappeared, and even Campagnolo barely survived.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Okay, you got me there. I was sure I remembered that MTB group STI shifters (called "Rapidfire") preceded road STI, but I guess they were actually at nearly the same time. (But I did correctly remember that HG arrive in MTB groups before road groups - although it wasn't much before.)

Surely, the decade between 1984 and 1994 saw huge changes in (derailleur) shifting technology, going from friction shifting down tube shifters, single spring flat parallelogram derailleurs, and symmetric cog profiles, to indexed dual control shifters, dual spring slant parallelogram derailleurs, and ramped/gated cog profiles. The drivetrain companies that could not keep up with these changes (Simplex, Huret, Suntour) disappeared, and even Campagnolo barely survived.

MTB was '89 for HG, '90 for STI. Road was '90 for HG, '91 for STI.

I would say Suntour did keep up. In MTB components they had their version of STI (X-Press), a really nice top shifter and another type. They developed Microdrive, Greaseguard, had SE brakes and their own 8 speed cassette system. They were killed in part by Shimano's 10% group discount to manufacturers, not because mountain bikers didn't appreciate their higher end offerings. They probably went out of business because of the $400 MTB market, not because XC-Pro wasn't as good as Deore XT.

Several of the European companies continued to back the big component plays of Sachs and Mavic, who also offered innovative shift systems for road and MTB. Mavic gave up on drivetrains, Sachs/Huret/Sedis became SRAM.


Before 1990, there were at least 10 companies you could buy an entire component group from. By 1994 there were 4(?), a decade later maybe 6. The biggest change was the move to complete in house production, something Suntour never did but their partners like SR, Sugino and Dia Compe are still with us.

The ebb and flow of the industry is weird. Modolo and Cinelli were icons and you'd have a hard time finding their bars these days.