OT: "The Miseducation of the American Boy."

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Didn’t read the article but I reread hilltop’s reply three times. Very well said. Massive social and cultural changes have happened in just my lifetime. When I compare my grandfather’s life to my father’s life to mine? What an amazing change in such a brief time.

Yes. And many of the changes are undoubtedly for the better. People (men mostly) who have long abused their power need to be taken to task and punished accordingly.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Steve in SLO

I heard an interview with the author several months ago on NPR and the message seemed to be that boys were conflicted from their 'traditional' upbringing replete with pressure to be a strong, silent, athletic braggard bro and their dawning insight that this pressure and behavior was wrong and did not represent who they should or wanted to be. Several of the boys interviewed just seemed to need someone to talk to to put things in perspective. The piece was well-done and sounded better than the article reads. It was interesting to hear that some boys in this modern age are facing some of the same pressures many of us felt 20-40+ year ago.

Agreed. But this is not a pathology.

[bigbill]

I was on track to retire as a Navy Captain about now. In 2011, I didn't like how my son was behaving and the now-ex had essentially stopped parenting. I retired the next year which was the earliest I could punch out. From 2012 until he graduated HS in 2018, my focus was totally on him. We talked every afternoon about homework, school, life, etc. After about a year, he opened up and our talks got better. At 16, we sat down and put together a plan for college and all the things he needed to do and the pitfalls he needed to avoid. There were setbacks but more progress, mostly from what he learned from the setbacks. I taught him to respect women and how to be a gentleman without being overly patronizing. Lots of trial and error but I am so immensely proud of the person he has become. He'll turn 21 this October and I plan on flying out to MD so he can buy me a beer in downtown Annapolis.

[FlashUNC]

It reads like a Find and Replace of Frederic Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent.

Toxic masculinity is real and serious problem, but blaming it on the culture of the moment reeks of excusing behavior that comes from a deeper and more timeless place. This all existed long before Twitter.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by bigbill

I was on track to retire as a Navy Captain about now. In 2011, I didn't like how my son was behaving and the now-ex had essentially stopped parenting. I retired the next year which was the earliest I could punch out. From 2012 until he graduated HS in 2018, my focus was totally on him. We talked every afternoon about homework, school, life, etc. After about a year, he opened up and our talks got better. At 16, we sat down and put together a plan for college and all the things he needed to do and the pitfalls he needed to avoid. There were setbacks but more progress, mostly from what he learned from the setbacks. I taught him to respect women and how to be a gentleman without being overly patronizing. Lots of trial and error but I am so immensely proud of the person he has become. He'll turn 21 this October and I plan on flying out to MD so he can buy me a beer in downtown Annapolis.

It is as simple as this and as hard as this.

[Steve in SLO]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Agreed. But this is not a pathology.

Agreed, but it does not need to be a pathology to be confusing/frustrating/scary. Someone to help unwind it can be a benefit.

[William]

Originally Posted by joosttx

It is as simple as this and as hard as this.

Truth.

Someone to help unwind it can be a benef

Engaged fathers/parents and mentor programs go a long way. I remeber the Big Brother programs back in the day.






W.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

I had to laugh at the analogy, but is nascent "toxic masculinity" so preordained?

Are we really failing our boys to the extent the author contends?

Ask Liz. Apparently, it's everywhere....

[mdeth1313]

Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

The destruction of today's kids is "smart" phones. Kids (and young adults) don't know how to communicate. If you are a lucky one and use the phone as a tool, not crutch, it is pretty easy to excel at life.

You would think, but my daughter (junior in HS) shared an interesting discussion they had in English class after reading an article that was affirming what's quoted above.

I believe she pointed out that many students are so fearful of speaking because they've been picked on, ridiculed (bullied), etc they're afraid to have a person to person conversation. Her teacher told me the entire class then spent the rest of the period discussing and almost all of them were in agreement and shared their own stories. This is an AP English class.


For another take/perspective on things, here's another read, this time from the NY Times:

Here's another angle on things:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/e...gh-school.html

[Spaghetti Legs]

Originally Posted by bigbill

I was on track to retire as a Navy Captain about now. In 2011, I didn't like how my son was behaving and the now-ex had essentially stopped parenting. I retired the next year which was the earliest I could punch out. From 2012 until he graduated HS in 2018, my focus was totally on him. We talked every afternoon about homework, school, life, etc. After about a year, he opened up and our talks got better. At 16, we sat down and put together a plan for college and all the things he needed to do and the pitfalls he needed to avoid. There were setbacks but more progress, mostly from what he learned from the setbacks. I taught him to respect women and how to be a gentleman without being overly patronizing. Lots of trial and error but I am so immensely proud of the person he has become. He'll turn 21 this October and I plan on flying out to MD so he can buy me a beer in downtown Annapolis.

Ha I was going to reply to your earlier tubeless ---> disc brake post, that at least he's a Navy man.

I read the article, but didn't have the time to give it detailed attention and thought, but I recognized many of the same issues I (probably most of us) confronted in our late teens through 20's. Our young men and women reflect a lot what we give them as parents and to a lesser extent but often as importantly close associates (teachers, friends, etc). I think we have to use care painting an entire population with a single brush. Bill - my older son is same age (21 in December) and I'm pleased, maybe even a little surprised at what a responsible, self confident, and even gentle young man he's become. He's certainly a better man than I was at his age (even though I was a Navy midshipman).

[d_douglas]

I have an 8yr old boy and a 10yr old girl.

What they learn on the playground is shocking. My son came home one day and asked if it was 'bad to be gay' - clearly this is an insult being hurtled around on the playground all the time (like when I was a kid).

My wife and I are very left leaning and have coached our kids to be accepting of all people regardless of gender/sexual orientation/race/ability and yet my boy is pressured to make these jokes - it makes me angry that we haven't advanced beyond this.

What was illuminating was when we discussed this with him, and asked if he knew that a number of our friends who are the same sex and live together are actually 'gay'. I know it helped, but his reaction of surprise was both interesting and kinda sad. Mostly interesting, because he's a smart kid and will learn oe day!

[Bruce K]

Middle school girls are far more mean/cruel than boys

BK

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by Spaghetti Legs

Ha I was going to reply to your earlier tubeless ---> disc brake post, that at least he's a Navy man.

I read the article, but didn't have the time to give it detailed attention and thought, but I recognized many of the same issues I (probably most of us) confronted in our late teens through 20's. Our young men and women reflect a lot what we give them as parents and to a lesser extent but often as importantly close associates (teachers, friends, etc). I think we have to use care painting an entire population with a single brush. Bill - my older son is same age (21 in December) and I'm pleased, maybe even a little surprised at what a responsible, self confident, and even gentle young man he's become. He's certainly a better man than I was at his age (even though I was a Navy midshipman).

We've been texting a lot lately. The midshipman that died while running a few weeks back had the same sponsor family as my son. Today he took 5th in his first road race in USNA colors. I joined the Navy at 20 but wasn't a dad until 34. You raise the kid you wanted to be, like Joosttx said, simple and hard all at once. I didn't have a dad around, I'm the product of several male role models from little league coaches to a WWII Marine.

[William]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Middle school girls are far more mean/cruel than boys

BK

In general, I would concur.





William

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Yes. And many of the changes are undoubtedly for the better. People (men mostly) who have long abused their power need to be taken to task and punished accordingly.

Please clarify who needs to be punished and why.

I did read the whole article and don’t think the author missed a single morsel of stereotypical man hate.