What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[Matthew]

They look great.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by gavingould

crazy on the deposit.

Ain't no way I'm plunkin' down $4500 for a bike that has never been produced.

But I wish him well.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

I really don't care if Ben is reading this thread or not. Nor does anyone else. It's a discussion forum and all ho participate are free to express their views as you are.

You don't understand the snark? Try first digesting that your post has given more info and pictures about the bikes than any other.

Doesn't that strike you as odd?

What he did the past 40 years might earn him the opty to gain the next customer's dollar. But, it might not. That's business reality.

And that reality has nothing to do with the accolades and achievements he has earned and richly deserves.

[572cv]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

Thanks BBD! Having some more background on the frames and set up is great intel. Real information is much better than speculation.

[onekgguy]

That gravel bike is a thing of beauty!

Kevin g

[jpw]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

The snark and speculation machines always go into red zone overdrive whenever Ben's name is mentioned here. I've never quite understood why.

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Ben is a human beings like every other human being. He has his strong points--and weak ones. For me the bottom line is that, as Dave Kirk has so eloquently put it, Ben ran a successful bike company for 40 years that helped employees raise families and buy homes.

FORTY. YEARS.

Has anyone else here done that? Anyone? . . . . . . . . (crickets)

Yeah, I thought so. Go ride your bikes. He will succeed or he will fail, but it's not up to us, and I assure you he is not breathlessly following every post in every thread here that mentions his name.

BBD

Did you take these photos?

[laupsi]

I for one am very happy to see Serotta’s named wrapped around another down tube.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

The steel frames are currently being built by Frank the Welder. The Ti frames are coming out of Vicious in New Paltz.

Here are some pictures. The bare ti frame is the prototype gravel bike. It has the Campy Ekar group on it and there are also a few pictures of that. The bike with the blue is steel. Both bikes look beautiful.

Thanks for the photos. But I don't see any steel frames on the new website. Both models are now titanium only.

By the way, I rode yesterday past where Vicious Cycles is located on S. Ohioville Rd, but I didn't see any sign.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Originally Posted by jpw

Did you take these photos?

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD

Yes, I can see the snark and the hostility in posts about Ben. But step back and ask yourself, who announces a new bike line, with partially completed or absent website information, and asks for a $4500 non-refundable deposit? There's more info in a kickstarter campaign than on his website.

People snark all over Speedvagen - the price, the marketing, the paint but no one wonders if Sacha will deliver.

Serotta fabrication was off the chart exquisite. But Ben's starts and stops in the recent years do not inspire confidence. Worse, competitors have caught up in all the fabrication areas that matter from a buyer perspective, except the triple butted ti.

I used to look at my ottrott and marvel an the relieved headtube and the relieved BB. and the bi-axially oriented swaged carbon tubes. just unreal.

despite those advancements, the market is still unkind. $6500 f/f can barely get $1500 if that? It is just indicative of time marching on and the plethora of current choices.

As for the "undercurrent of expectation of failure" isnt this iteration the 3rd or 4th "announcement" since the Serotta closure? where are the bikes from the previous incarnations?

I wouldnt say I hope he fails. I would simply say he isn't building the confidence or aspiration to make me consider sending some money his way. Others are less kind in their comments - hence the impression of snark and hostility.

That said, your sharing the spy shots is much appreciated.

[54ny77]

I'll take a wild guess Serotta couldn't care less about this forum or its members' opinions, likening it to a little old lady kvetch-fest about bike stuff by armchair experts.

If that's true....its a tragedy. He could probably sell out an entire years' run if he hustled for biz here like all the exemplary builders who were laid off from Serotta to start anew elsewhere, as well as other top notch independent shops who had to build their brand from scratch. Forty years of brand equity means something.

Oh well. Bring on the popcorn!

[jpw]

Time for specifics. Do those dropouts look functional or brutal? I can't decide.

[SPOKE]

The pics that BBD posted show that the frame sets are well thought out. The rear dropouts look a bit more “industrial” than I really would like to see but that’s just personal taste. I think they appear to be very functional and allow easy fit up with the stays which will help make welding a bit easier. I dig the shaping of the chain stays! Overall really nice bikes. When Ben gets to the point that he offers frame sets I’d like to get one!

[BumbleBeeDave]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

Yes, I can see the snark and the hostility in posts about Ben. But step back and ask yourself, who announces a new bike line, with partially completed or absent website information, and asks for a $4500 non-refundable deposit? There's more info in a kickstarter campaign than on his website.

People snark all over Speedvagen - the price, the marketing, the paint but no one wonders if Sacha will deliver.

Serotta fabrication was off the chart exquisite. But Ben's starts and stops in the recent years do not inspire confidence. Worse, competitors have caught up in all the fabrication areas that matter from a buyer perspective, except the triple butted ti.

I used to look at my ottrott and marvel an the relieved headtube and the relieved BB. and the bi-axially oriented swaged carbon tubes. just unreal.

despite those advancements, the market is still unkind. $6500 f/f can barely get $1500 if that? It is just indicative of time marching on and the plethora of current choices.

As for the "undercurrent of expectation of failure" isnt this iteration the 3rd or 4th "announcement" since the Serotta closure? where are the bikes from the previous incarnations?

I wouldnt say I hope he fails. I would simply say he isn't building the confidence or aspiration to make me consider sending some money his way. Others are less kind in their comments - hence the impression of snark and hostility.

That said, your sharing the spy shots is much appreciated.

You make some good points here. I'm just not aware of any incidents where Ben failed to deliver a bike if someone ordered one--and if he did fail, not offering a refund. People may have lost deposits in '12 when the company shut down, but by then he wasn't even there. He had, in effect, been fired from his own company. Note this is the first time since then he has tried to offer bikes with his own name on the down tube. He even lost the commercial rights to his own name for that time.

Having been on the forum since 2003, I saw this streak of hostility long before the company went under. The only specific story I remember of an unhappy customer that included details or info from the customer himself resulted in Ben building him a new bike at no charge–and that wasn't because it had been aired on the forum. I've been puzzled because there seems to have always been this undercurrent of hostility without any specific accusations of anything he did to earn the hostility. I remember "The Jerk" constantly referring derisively to Ben's "faster backwards" bikes simply because Ben built them for what that individual cyclist needed due to physical needs, not what Jerk-Man thought a bike should look like. Just loads of crap thrown Ben's way in public that would have had me shutting the place down in a sec if it was me having to endure that bull.

Note that for many years, Ben was actively paying to keep a forum going where he was often disparaged. The Paceline is only here today and since it started in Feb. 2012 because Ben allowed it. He could have just shut the whole thing down, but instead offered to give it to anybody who wanted to keep it going.

My bottom line is he did keep a company going for 40 years, made a lot of cyclists happy, and gave a lot of people careers. He was always nice to me when we met and I just wish him well.

BBD

[fiamme red]

I was wondering if the project was going forward. It was good to see that there are some new posts on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SerottaCycling/.

Has anyone here seen a Prologue in person?