Chains too thin?

[TAW]

Originally Posted by Dave

I've read plenty of posts from users who think they are smarter than the engineers who design the chains and join the ends with the same old pin that was pushed out one side of the chain. That's asking for trouble, but those who do it always say they've never had a failure. I say their time will come.

Well, I happen to be one of those who uses the same pin on my 9 speed stuff, and have for quite a while. It's seriously not because I think I'm smarter than the engineer, but I (and others who do this) got this from Zinn's book which was written or revised after 9 speed came out. He has since said NOT to use the old pin on 10 speed stuff.

[Fixed]

i use a i/8 inch chain they are pretty tough imho
cheers

[DfCas]

I wrenched for some friends at a local 24 hour mtb race (24 hours of Big Bear) this weekend, and thought I'd pass this story along. He called on Friday and said they needed me, but all I needed to bring was my body. All tools,parts,food etc would be provided.

I took a few tools anyway, since I prefer to use my own. Anyway, after lap 1 he comes in with a broken chain.Since we had no new chain, it needed fixed. I had to take 2 links out of each side of the break, since it was bent on both sides. He gave me 2 pieces to splice.Get this,-- the chain was a Sram xx, he gave me Shimano links and some other different Sram links, and we had no Shimano pins anyway. So it had 3 splices in a row of mismatched links.

He was racing Duo Pro, so time was a problem- I only had an hour so I didn't have time to go borrow a chain. besides, the ladies 2 person team had issues-tubeless flats, hydraulic brake levers pulling back to the bar,etc.

So as he goes out for his second lap, I went to another camp and borrowed a new chain, so when he came back with a broken chain again we could replace it.

He came back with a tubeless flat, but the chain was still on. I told him I was gonna change the chain and he says no. please don't. I guess he was superstitious- nothing else made sense.

The heinz 57 chain lasted the race-8 more laps,or 100 miles of muddy,knarly mtbing, on a 1 x 9 and he was on the 9th position a lot.

After the race he told me he would put on a new chain after he gets home...

BTW, he set the fastest lap of the race, so the chain was heavily stressed.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by R2D2

What chain broke Shimano or Campagnolo?.

Shimano - it was a Milram rider.

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

First let me point out that the weak link in the system isn't the pin, it's the pin/sideplate interface. As far as I can see there are two pieces of metal there and I'm guessing compression forces on the side of a hardened pin do less damage than sheer forces on a hole in a thin plate - just a guess. Next, you have to look at the forces and the direction of these forces. If all bikes were single speeds with perfect chainline, chain breakage wouldn't be much of an issue. No, we got a stack of cogs back there and a bunch of chainrings up front and everybody wants the shortest distance between them - there is chain angle, there is bending force on the side links...

Since out last go-around with the topic of tandems and 10-speed I've started keeping data. In the last 6 weeks I know of 3 chain failures on tandems, all 10-speed. That means that the failure rate for 10-speed equipped tandems we've sold is closing in on 100% Does that tell you anything?

Face it folks, the market is driven by product comparison on paper. Make a check list, the product that has the most check marks wins. Who wanted to sell 9-speed crap when the 10-speed stuff came out? Consumers are way too stupid to look at long term costs or expected durability. Given my yearly mileage I figured out that maintainance of a Dura-Ace 10-speed bike would cost me 8 times what I'm spending (running a combination of Dura-Ace and Ultegra 9-speed)

Wait a second, my salary is paid by people breaking or wearing out bike parts - ignore what I just wrote!!!

-Ya, I cant wear out my 8 speed Record ....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Since out last go-around with the topic of tandems and 10-speed I've started keeping data. In the last 6 weeks I know of 3 chain failures on tandems, all 10-speed. That means that the failure rate for 10-speed equipped tandems we've sold is closing in on 100% Does that tell you anything?

Unless you elaborate on the exact nature of the failure, it really means nothing. Hopefully, the mechanic assembling the bike didn't join two chains and decided it wasn't necessary to use the special joining pin (assuming Shimano chains).

Did the riders have poor shifting ability and/or ride in the big/big combo a lot? Many things can contribute to chain failure. I rode with someone recently who went most of the way up a 10 mile mountain climb in the big/big combo, doing "big ring intervals". I mentioned to him that he would get the same, but much more chain friendly gear ratio in the little ring.

I'll repeat my advice to try a Campy Veloce chain. It seems to have the most pin push resistance and there are no lightening holes in the side plates.

[capybaras]

maybe your neck is too fat

[Marcusaurelius]

I second the vote for 9 speed. I already switched two campy ten speeds bikes to 9 speed. I just don't have much confidence in the 10 speed stuff and I've never seen a real need for a cog with 10 speeds.

[Grant McLean]

Originally Posted by Marcusaurelius

I second the vote for 9 speed. I already switched two campy ten speeds bikes to 9 speed. I just don't have much confidence in the 10 speed stuff and I've never seen a real need for a cog with 10 speeds.

not to single you out, but these type of comments puzzle me...
Are you aware the only difference between campy 9 & 10 is the air between each shift?
...or that the thickness of each of the cogs and rings is identical?
...or that the inside measurements of the 10 speed chain is identical to 9 speed?

The only difference is that the outer plates are thinner, allowing for the rear
cogs to be placed closer to each other, and fit in the same space as 9.

Like the great info Dave has already posted, you don't exactly see chains ripped in half.
You see pins that have been mis-installed by people who
don't know what they're doing.
Most of these 8 vs 9 vs 10 vs 11 discussions are based on misinformation...

g

[avalonracing]

Originally Posted by michael white

well, now that the retro craze is well established in consumer culture (Minis, Bonnevilles, etc.), I do think we're about ready for a 7 or 8 spd polished silver "heritage edition" group from either Campy or Shimano..

This is an ingenious marketing idea. You should get a free group from both companies when they steal this idea.

[giordana93]

let me throw some gas on this fire and say that it's not the chain thickness per se, but the twisting and grabbing aided by the cog ramps and twisted teeth that plays a major role in this. I NEVER remember hearing about people breaking chains until hyperglide came out for mtb's back in the day. and the young turks with whom I was riding on the road sucked at shifting because they were always full gas, even on a climb: shift, (loud and horrible noises from drive train), never letting up just a fraction like we did on downtube 5, 6, 7 8 speeds. there used to be an art to shifting at the right moment, especially on hard climbs. just my retro grounch 2 cents (U.S., which are now worth what?) cheers

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by Grant McLean

not to single you out, but these type of comments puzzle me...
Are you aware the only difference between campy 9 & 10 is the air between each shift?
...or that the thickness of each of the cogs and rings is identical?
...or that the inside measurements of the 10 speed chain is identical to 9 speed?

The only difference is that the outer plates are thinner, allowing for the rear
cogs to be placed closer to each other, and fit in the same space as 9.

Like the great info Dave has already posted, you don't exactly see chains ripped in half.
You see pins that have been mis-installed by people who
don't know what they're doing.
Most of these 8 vs 9 vs 10 vs 11 discussions are based on misinformation...

g

Slightly ot-exactly when is one supposed to lube a new Campy chain? I wont wipe off their treatment, but 4 years my chains got lubed right away but my friend the wrench says just ride it 4 awhile-youll know when to lube it

[Dave]

Originally Posted by giordana93

let me throw some gas on this fire and say that it's not the chain thickness per se, but the twisting and grabbing aided by the cog ramps and twisted teeth that plays a major role in this. I NEVER remember hearing about people breaking chains until hyperglide came out for mtb's back in the day. and the young turks with whom I was riding on the road sucked at shifting because they were always full gas, even on a climb: shift, (loud and horrible noises from drive train), never letting up just a fraction like we did on downtube 5, 6, 7 8 speeds. there used to be an art to shifting at the right moment, especially on hard climbs. just my retro grounch 2 cents (U.S., which are now worth what?) cheers

Back in the days of 5-8 speed, chain were made differently, with protruding pins that were only lightly peened on the ends. The pins could be pushed out of one side of the chain, leaving the pin engaged with the opposite outer plate and later reinstalled with no problem. Campy and Sachs 9 speed chains also had protruding pins. Shimano was the first to change to flush pin 9 speed chains that require heavier peening to retain the pin. Campy followed when they introduced 10 speed. Today, all 10 speed chains and most 9 speed models have flush pins.

I don't think hyperglide, exadrive and the like have anything to do with chain failure. All those tooth profiles do is improve shifting, not extert additional forces on the chain.

What can be blamed in most cases is poor shifting technique, which you mentioned, and the failure to properly join the chain.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by soulspinner

Slightly ot-exactly when is one supposed to lube a new Campy chain? I wont wipe off their treatment, but 4 years my chains got lubed right away but my friend the wrench says just ride it 4 awhile-youll know when to lube it

I apply homebrew lube, even to a new chain and wipe off the exterior of the chain to remove as much of the factory crap as possible. No lube lasts for more than a few hundred miles. If you only lube a chain every 2-300 miles or when it gets noisy, a lot of those miles will be run with dirt contaminated lube that reduces chain life. Lube often and you will see longer chain life.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Marcusaurelius

I second the vote for 9 speed. I already switched two campy ten speeds bikes to 9 speed. I just don't have much confidence in the 10 speed stuff and I've never seen a real need for a cog with 10 speeds.

In constrast, I've got complete faith in 10 speed drivetrains. I switched to 10 speed in the spring of 2000 and I've never owned a 9 speed bike since. I've never had any sort of chain or cog problem.

Campy hasn't made any 9 speed groups for a couple of years now and none of the top three groups has been 9 speed for many years. For '09 they will make three 11 speed groups, two 10 speed groups and no lower level groups like Mirage and Xenon.