Chains too thin?

[TAW]

Today on Versus Phil Liggett made the comment after the chain break (don't remember who it was?) that he felt that chains were getting too thin and breaking too easily. Do you guys and ladies think there's a point where the increasing number of gears will have to end because of chain thickness?

Discuss.

[csm]

I think when we get to 16 cassettes we will be at that point.

[Dave]

Most chain failures on not a case of the chain actually breaking. A sideplate most often comes off then end of a pin and that pin is quite often a replacement/joining pin. Shimano's replacement pin idea isn't the best out there. Most master links seem to do a better job, IMO.

Campy however, with the thinnest chain of all in the new 11 speed group will continue to use a joining pin. These pins can't be used to join used sideplates, where a pin has been pushed out, only the pair of new sideplates at one end of a new chain. You get one chance to install the chain correctly.

[RPS]

Originally Posted by Dave

Most chain failures on not a case of the chain actually breaking. A sideplate most often comes off then end of a pin and that pin is quite often a replacement/joining pin......snipped.......

Dave, by breaking most riders probably mean falling apart. I suspect they could care less if it’s actual metal failure or not.

Your point is well taken. However, don’t you think that by making the chains narrower they increase the chance of a thinner side plate coming off a pin?

Thinner side plates = more failures?

Phil knows best. I totally agree with him, today's chains accomodate today's massive cassettes. I'm guilty of it. I'd ride Campy 8 speed if I took my own advice...

[Chief]

I have often thought that a 9-speed chain was about optimum. Thinner chains and cogs mean more wear with decreased chain and cog life. Moreover, the thinner the chain the less contact area between the pins and sideplates and the easier it is for the sideplate to separate from the pin. Cross chaining puts additional load on this connection. One solution is to flare the end of the pin slightly so that the sideplate can't come off. This means that a master link will be essential.

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by Chief

I have often thought that a 9-speed chain was about optimum. Thinner chains and cogs mean more wear with decreased chain and cog life. Moreover, the thinner the chain the less contact area between the pins and sideplates and the easier it is for the sideplate to separate from the pin. Cross chaining puts additional load on this connection. One solution is to flare the end of the pin slightly so that the sideplate can't come off. This means that a master link will be essential.

End of discussion. Chief has spoken and Chief is one very very smart dude...I mean gentleman....who all of us should ride like when we reach his age. Inspiration.


Sandy

[regularguy412]

I'm a confessed Luddite / retro-grouch and I'm still on 8-speed. I have no gripe with anyone who wants to use 9, 10 or 11 speed chains and cogs. However, I have had no serious chain issues in many miles of riding, save the occasional chain-suck/drop from a chain that needed to be replaced. (insert sound of knocking on wood)

I've ridden a friend's 10 speed DA and it sure shifts nice, but not enough better than my DA STI-8 to warrant a complete crank, fd, rd, chain, shifter swap. A new chain and cogs makes any system work like it's supposed to.

Sure does seem like we will approach a point of diminished returns as the cog numbers increase. Sure, there are times when I would like to have an 18 cog,, or both a 12 AND a 27 on the same cassette, but I'm not really racey enough to miss it much. Besides, there's something to be said for mashing the gear a bit.

MIke in AR

[R2D2]

What chain broke Shimano or Campagnolo?.

[Ti Designs]

First let me point out that the weak link in the system isn't the pin, it's the pin/sideplate interface. As far as I can see there are two pieces of metal there and I'm guessing compression forces on the side of a hardened pin do less damage than sheer forces on a hole in a thin plate - just a guess. Next, you have to look at the forces and the direction of these forces. If all bikes were single speeds with perfect chainline, chain breakage wouldn't be much of an issue. No, we got a stack of cogs back there and a bunch of chainrings up front and everybody wants the shortest distance between them - there is chain angle, there is bending force on the side links...

Since out last go-around with the topic of tandems and 10-speed I've started keeping data. In the last 6 weeks I know of 3 chain failures on tandems, all 10-speed. That means that the failure rate for 10-speed equipped tandems we've sold is closing in on 100% Does that tell you anything?

Face it folks, the market is driven by product comparison on paper. Make a check list, the product that has the most check marks wins. Who wanted to sell 9-speed crap when the 10-speed stuff came out? Consumers are way too stupid to look at long term costs or expected durability. Given my yearly mileage I figured out that maintainance of a Dura-Ace 10-speed bike would cost me 8 times what I'm spending (running a combination of Dura-Ace and Ultegra 9-speed)

Wait a second, my salary is paid by people breaking or wearing out bike parts - ignore what I just wrote!!!

[michael white]

well, now that the retro craze is well established in consumer culture (Minis, Bonnevilles, etc.), I do think we're about ready for a 7 or 8 spd polished silver "heritage edition" group from either Campy or Shimano.

I bet we'd snap em up and complain bitterly when they ran out.

[avalonracing]

Originally Posted by michael white

well, now that the retro craze is well established in consumer culture (Minis, Bonnevilles, etc.), I do think we're about ready for a 7 or 8 spd polished silver "heritage edition" group from either Campy or Shimano..

This is an ingenious marketing idea. You should get a free group from both companies when they steal this idea.

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

First let me point out that the weak link in the system isn't the pin, it's the pin/sideplate interface. As far as I can see there are two pieces of metal there and I'm guessing compression forces on the side of a hardened pin do less damage than sheer forces on a hole in a thin plate - just a guess. Next, you have to look at the forces and the direction of these forces. If all bikes were single speeds with perfect chainline, chain breakage wouldn't be much of an issue. No, we got a stack of cogs back there and a bunch of chainrings up front and everybody wants the shortest distance between them - there is chain angle, there is bending force on the side links...

Since out last go-around with the topic of tandems and 10-speed I've started keeping data. In the last 6 weeks I know of 3 chain failures on tandems, all 10-speed. That means that the failure rate for 10-speed equipped tandems we've sold is closing in on 100% Does that tell you anything?

Face it folks, the market is driven by product comparison on paper. Make a check list, the product that has the most check marks wins. Who wanted to sell 9-speed crap when the 10-speed stuff came out? Consumers are way too stupid to look at long term costs or expected durability. Given my yearly mileage I figured out that maintainance of a Dura-Ace 10-speed bike would cost me 8 times what I'm spending (running a combination of Dura-Ace and Ultegra 9-speed)

Wait a second, my salary is paid by people breaking or wearing out bike parts - ignore what I just wrote!!!

-Ya, I cant wear out my 8 speed Record ....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

Since out last go-around with the topic of tandems and 10-speed I've started keeping data. In the last 6 weeks I know of 3 chain failures on tandems, all 10-speed. That means that the failure rate for 10-speed equipped tandems we've sold is closing in on 100% Does that tell you anything?

Unless you elaborate on the exact nature of the failure, it really means nothing. Hopefully, the mechanic assembling the bike didn't join two chains and decided it wasn't necessary to use the special joining pin (assuming Shimano chains).

Did the riders have poor shifting ability and/or ride in the big/big combo a lot? Many things can contribute to chain failure. I rode with someone recently who went most of the way up a 10 mile mountain climb in the big/big combo, doing "big ring intervals". I mentioned to him that he would get the same, but much more chain friendly gear ratio in the little ring.

I'll repeat my advice to try a Campy Veloce chain. It seems to have the most pin push resistance and there are no lightening holes in the side plates.

[capybaras]

maybe your neck is too fat