Know the rules The Paceline Forum Builder's Spotlight


Go Back   The Paceline Forum > Builder Spotlights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1576  
Old 10-31-2020, 08:10 PM
SPOKE SPOKE is offline
Hey, watch this!!!!!
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,486
Always HOT! But oh so COOL!!!!!

[QUOTE=David Kirk;2820882]Raw silver-on-stainless action to end the work week and the month. Onesto.

dave[/QUOTE]
__________________
SPOKE
Life's too short to ride cheap bikes!
Reply With Quote
  #1577  
Old 11-02-2020, 04:45 PM
David Kirk's Avatar
David Kirk David Kirk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bozeman MT
Posts: 8,380
One of the seemingly forgotten but hugely important aspects of frame building is the tube mitering. Each tube needs to mate perfectly to the other tube to make a straight and strong joint. If there is a gap a few things tend to happen - first is that the frame will not be straight once the brazing is done and the second is that it can be damn hard to get the brazing done in the first place.

Second things first - if the two tubes don't come together perfectly and there are gaps then the silver filler won't get pulled through completely. The silver moves through the joint under the force of capillary action and if the gap is large that capillary effect is lost. So to be sure that there are no gaps of silver deep in the brazed lugged joint there can be no gaps in the miters.

The other issue is one of alignment. If there are gaps in the miter then things will shift when the silver cools and contracts and the tube will creep ever-so-slightly within the lug. It takes VERY little creep to end up with a frame that is far out of whack. But if the miters are tight and the tubes are firmly pressed against one another inside the lug then there is nowhere for the tube to move to. The two tubes support each other and after brazing, if the proper sequence is used, that the frame will be straight and require no cold setting to get it to be in line. Cold setting is hardly a crime but if I don't need to do it I'm perfectly happy - and I almost never need to do it.

So here's what it looks like inside the lug - the first photo shows the end of the mitered tube as it sits in the lug. The second shows the top and head tubes pressed together as they will be inside the lug. And the 3rd of course is the tubes in the lug and ready to be brazed.

If you didn't know before, now you do.

Back to the bench - break is over.


dave
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_1273.jpg (63.0 KB, 555 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_1278.jpg (85.4 KB, 560 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_1285.jpg (75.4 KB, 566 views)
Reply With Quote
  #1578  
Old 11-02-2020, 05:37 PM
AngryScientist's Avatar
AngryScientist AngryScientist is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: northeast NJ
Posts: 32,873
that's pretty good dave. the devil in the details that most people will never see.

would you say the technique, and more interestingly, the tools have evolved since let's say the 90's in the heyday or steel race frames, or are the basic techniques and tools still the same?

as with everything, experience can surely allow someone to "fake it" if the interface isnt tight, but i suspect the true masters such as yourself make sure to get it right, and not rush the process.

cool stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #1579  
Old 11-02-2020, 08:50 PM
David Kirk's Avatar
David Kirk David Kirk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bozeman MT
Posts: 8,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryScientist View Post
that's pretty good dave. the devil in the details that most people will never see.

would you say the technique, and more interestingly, the tools have evolved since let's say the 90's in the heyday or steel race frames, or are the basic techniques and tools still the same?

as with everything, experience can surely allow someone to "fake it" if the interface isnt tight, but i suspect the true masters such as yourself make sure to get it right, and not rush the process.

cool stuff.
Interestingly in my case the tooling has devolved while the hand skills have taken their place and evolved. I do all my mitering by hand now while in the 90's, while at Serotta, I rarely mitered anything by hand....I used a mill set up to do the mitering back then.

While the results were pretty good back then (always ended up touching up the miters by hand to get them just so) my miters are tighter today than they have ever been in the past.

Doing the work by hand takes a little bit longer but in the end it adds up to only about 15 minutes more per bike compared to doing the work on a mill....it's inconsequential in the big scheme to me. The real benefit to me isn't so much the miter itself but instead it's the fact that I don't have to find space to have a big mill sit 24/7 when I'd only use it for 1/2 hr per week. Doing stuff like miters by hand allows me to work from home in a very small space (entire work area is 10' x 20' or 1/2 of my two stall garage) and not commute to a shop where I'd pay rent/power/insurance....etc. That 15 extra minutes per bike saves me many thousands of dollars a year in other expenses. It's a great time investment....and I enjoy doing it.

So it was time very well spent teaching myself to miter by hand quickly and precisely. In the end I run a business and it needs to earn a profit and surprisingly having no big machine tools has saved me money. It's one of the reasons I'm still here after nearly 18 years.

dave
Reply With Quote
  #1580  
Old 11-03-2020, 11:12 AM
William's Avatar
William William is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Herding nomads won't
Posts: 30,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
Interestingly in my case the tooling has devolved while the hand skills have taken their place and evolved. I do all my mitering by hand now while in the 90's, while at Serotta, I rarely mitered anything by hand....I used a mill set up to do the mitering back then.

While the results were pretty good back then (always ended up touching up the miters by hand to get them just so) my miters are tighter today than they have ever been in the past.

Doing the work by hand takes a little bit longer but in the end it adds up to only about 15 minutes more per bike compared to doing the work on a mill....it's inconsequential in the big scheme to me. The real benefit to me isn't so much the miter itself but instead it's the fact that I don't have to find space to have a big mill sit 24/7 when I'd only use it for 1/2 hr per week. Doing stuff like miters by hand allows me to work from home in a very small space (entire work area is 10' x 20' or 1/2 of my two stall garage) and not commute to a shop where I'd pay rent/power/insurance....etc. That 15 extra minutes per bike saves me many thousands of dollars a year in other expenses. It's a great time investment....and I enjoy doing it.

So it was time very well spent teaching myself to miter by hand quickly and precisely. In the end I run a business and it needs to earn a profit and surprisingly having no big machine tools has saved me money. It's one of the reasons I'm still here after nearly 18 years.

dave
Since we don't currently have a "like" button I shall improvise!!




W.
Attached Images
File Type: png Like.png (51.9 KB, 500 views)
__________________
Custom Frame Builders List
Support our vendors!
Reply With Quote
  #1581  
Old 11-03-2020, 11:52 AM
Keith A's Avatar
Keith A Keith A is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Space Coast of FL
Posts: 18,098
Dave -- Thanks for sharing...that was very interesting. Your work looks fantastic and I'm always impressed.
__________________
My '96 CSi & compact CSi
The Paceline . . . Enjoy the ride.
Reply With Quote
  #1582  
Old 11-03-2020, 01:57 PM
AngryScientist's Avatar
AngryScientist AngryScientist is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: northeast NJ
Posts: 32,873
thanks for the reply dave, interesting stuff.

for the first time in my career as an adult, i dont have access to a full machine shop where i could play at will, and for sure, i do miss having that access, both to keep my machining skills sharp and for the opportunities to tinker, but there is no doubt doing some tasks by hand is a more intimate process and not needing the tooling is great.
Reply With Quote
  #1583  
Old 11-04-2020, 11:33 PM
Vientomas's Avatar
Vientomas Vientomas is offline
Member?
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Posts: 2,154
The beautiful work of a craftsman. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
__________________
Member? Oh, I member.
Reply With Quote
  #1584  
Old 11-05-2020, 06:55 AM
weisan's Avatar
weisan weisan is online now
ZhugeLiang
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Back in Austin, Texas
Posts: 17,261
I lament the fact that metal framebuilding is becoming more and more a lost art as we transition more and more into carbon layout and molding.

Dave pal, I sincerely hope you would consider taking a couple of weeks out of a year to run a workshop for bidding framebuilders around the world...let the flame continue to burn so to speak.
__________________
🏻*
Reply With Quote
  #1585  
Old 11-07-2020, 07:44 AM
oldpotatoe's Avatar
oldpotatoe oldpotatoe is offline
Proud Grandpa
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 46,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisan View Post
I lament the fact that metal framebuilding is becoming more and more a lost art as we transition more and more into carbon layout and molding.

Dave pal, I sincerely hope you would consider taking a couple of weeks out of a year to run a workshop for bidding framebuilders around the world...let the flame continue to burn so to speak.
Metal? LOST art? 'WE' are transitioning?

Here's 23 makers of 'metal' bikes

https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide...-frames-194720

Some more

https://www.gearpatrol.com/outdoors/...l-bike-makers/

I'd say there are far more small builders dealing with 'metal' than in 'carbon, by far...

Just cuz trekspecializecdgiantcannondale are all plastic all the time doesn't mean 'metal' is leavin the marketplace.
__________________
Chisholm's Custom Wheels
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo
Reply With Quote
  #1586  
Old 11-07-2020, 12:00 PM
bigbill bigbill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hackberry, AZ
Posts: 3,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisan View Post
I lament the fact that metal framebuilding is becoming more and more a lost art as we transition more and more into carbon layout and molding.

Dave pal, I sincerely hope you would consider taking a couple of weeks out of a year to run a workshop for bidding framebuilders around the world...let the flame continue to burn so to speak.
The last two new bikes I bought are hand built and steel. My favorite builder is convalescing for now.
Reply With Quote
  #1587  
Old 11-10-2020, 03:55 AM
Teletori Teletori is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Onesto and Salt air?

Read on your Instagram that you dont recommend unpainted stainless if one live close to the ocean with salt in the air... since it takes too much work to keep it looking good.

I have been looking at getting in line for an Onesto with my thoughts being that stainless steeel should be perfect since I live close to the ocean, and ride on salted roads in the winter.

What are the issues with the salt? And does the 953 have other characteristics with regards to this than XCR?

Only issues I have had with my Firefly XCR finish is marks from dripping sports drink, (probably the citric acid). Probably need to clean it with something like that to make it even.
Is this related to your concerns?
Reply With Quote
  #1588  
Old 11-10-2020, 10:50 AM
David Kirk's Avatar
David Kirk David Kirk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bozeman MT
Posts: 8,380
Good question.

You are correct - I don’t recommend stainless bikes to those that live close to the ocean and salt air. The issue is that the salt makes it too time consuming for most owners to keep the finish looking good. Under normal (non salt air) conditions keeping a stainless bike looking good is pretty darn simple. I’ve been using my personal lugged stainless bike for a good 4 years now and have done nothing more than blasting it with the hose and it looks like new. On the other hand if you live right on the ocean it would need proper cleaning all the time to keep it looking good.

Lugged stainless bikes are made of two materials - stainless and silver brazing filler - and both react to salt air. It will sound sarcastic to say that they call the material “stain-less” and not “stain-proof” for a reason. It can stain. Unlike the stainless flatware we eat with every day the stainless used in bike tubes has some iron in it to help make it super strong. This iron can cause surface staining when exposed to salt. Note that it does not rust like an old Buick where the structure is compromised but instead is simply staining on the surface….and this can be removed with common cleaners. How often this needs to be done depends on how close the bike lives to the ocean.

The second material is the silver alloy used to hold the tubes together. To make this alloy flow properly and be super strong it has trace amounts of tin in it….this tin, like the tin cans from decades ago, corrodes and looks like crap. Since there is typically only 2% tin in the silver the stuff doesn’t rust in a way that compromises the structure of the bike but it does look bad. The lugs lines get speckled brownish red and this too can be cleaned off without a lot of work… but if you live on the ocean it will require cleaning much more often to keep looking good.

And yes things like sports drinks with their high salt level can stain the tubes. And yes XCR and 953 and KVA all see the same issues with salt air.

Many like to think that stainless is like Ti (requiring vey little work to keep looking good) and it can be if you live away from the coast. But it you live near the ocean I recommend a painted steel or stainless bike or if you want a completely carefree finish near the ocean go for a Ti bike.

I hope that makes sense - I haven't finished my morning coffee so all bets are off!

dave
Reply With Quote
  #1589  
Old 11-10-2020, 11:35 AM
Teletori Teletori is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Thank you for the in depth answer!
Absolutely something I need to be aware of going forward.

I've had several Ti bikes, and cleaning has been similar to the XCR Firefly. And since it's welded, I have not seeen the brazing discoloration issue.

So I guess the answer would be a painted Onesto then... ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #1590  
Old 11-10-2020, 11:38 AM
Ryun Ryun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletori View Post
Thank you for the in depth answer!
Absolutely something I need to be aware of going forward.

I've had several Ti bikes, and cleaning has been similar to the XCR Firefly. And since it's welded, I have not seeen the brazing discoloration issue.

So I guess the answer would be a painted Onesto then... ;-)
Living in florida, I went through the same thought process as you for my Kirk.
Eventually we landed on a JKS special with some stainless in the high wear areas but otherwise standard tubing. Just another data point
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.