OT: Good Read about homelessness

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by bart998

Sorry, some right but much wrong here^^^ The homeless problem has been exacerbated by the prop. 47 catch and release rules. While jail is not ideal for mental treatment, it is also often the only option available and dumping them on the streets doesn't help them or anybody else. The mental health "system" needs a total overhaul so people can get the help they need before they harm or rob others and get locked up. As a recently retired police supervisor (31 years) in California, who also supervised in a jail mental facility, I have to disagree with the premise that letting minor offenders off is beneficial. Police are spending millions on mental health training for officers and creating specialized units to respond to their needs. Police have become the defacto mental health system in the absence of a medical one, referring people for treatment everyday without jail. They don't want the job but it has fallen to them since courts stripped apart the old system in the 1970's. If someone ends up in jail it's not because they are mentally ill, it's because they have committed a crime. If you are assaulted or robbed by a mentally ill person, the crime is real not mental. Since prop. 47 passed crime has shot through the roof, with criminals tailoring their crimes to fit the new rules so they can avoid jail time. So, not everyone it caused to be released is a mental patient, many are career criminals and will continue to be.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate promoting stereotypes with the "shoot first" comment, someone with that mentality wouldn't last long in today's LEO climate. It's not a good time for police who are frustrated by crime with no consequences, or your average, law-abiding citizen/victim right now in the once golden state.

Thank you!

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by bart998

Sorry, some right but much wrong here^^^ The homeless problem has been exacerbated by the prop. 47 catch and release rules. While jail is not ideal for mental treatment, it is also often the only option available and dumping them on the streets doesn't help them or anybody else. The mental health "system" needs a total overhaul so people can get the help they need before they harm or rob others and get locked up. As a recently retired police supervisor (31 years) in California, who also supervised in a jail mental facility, I have to disagree with the premise that letting minor offenders off is beneficial. Police are spending millions on mental health training for officers and creating specialized units to respond to their needs. Police have become the defacto mental health system in the absence of a medical one, referring people for treatment everyday without jail. They don't want the job but it has fallen to them since courts stripped apart the old system in the 1970's. If someone ends up in jail it's not because they are mentally ill, it's because they have committed a crime. If you are assaulted or robbed by a mentally ill person, the crime is real not mental. Since prop. 47 passed crime has shot through the roof, with criminals tailoring their crimes to fit the new rules so they can avoid jail time. So, not everyone it caused to be released is a mental patient, many are career criminals and will continue to be.

Lastly, I really don't appreciate promoting stereotypes with the "shoot first" comment, someone with that mentality wouldn't last long in today's LEO climate. It's not a good time for police who are frustrated by crime with no consequences, or your average, law-abiding citizen/victim right now in the once golden state.

Good response, but lacks the critical element.
Whether we like it or not legislatures around the country have abrogated their responsibility to provide for mentally ill citizens. The criminal justice system is what we’re left with. As more and more people are reconized to have actual diagnosed mental health problems, the math of locking them up stops working.

What we’re doing here in my community is not catch and release, but catch and engage. At its most pragmatic, this approach simply saves money and crowded jail resources. On that measure alone, its a smart move.

Engagement is the key. If anyone thinks that locking ‘em up or ignoring the mentally ill is a solution they are wrong. We’ve proven that over several decades. The good news is that some are beginning to recognize the issue for what it is and that its cheaper and better for everyone involved to engage rather than incarcerate in those instances where it is likely to be successful. Sometimes its as simple as keeping a person compliant with their meds. This can be vastly less expensive than incarceration in money and in quality of life for the entire community.

The moral component seems obvious to some, not so much to others. I submit that punishing the mentally ill is like beating your dog for peeing in the house two weeks prior. It does not do any good, only harm. The dog has no idea why its getting beat and no way to connect the beating with the past behavior. It just got beat down and hurt. No good comes from that method.

[HenryA]

I appreciate the grown up conversation happening in this thread.

[jamesdak]

Which is the greater wrong, locking the mentally ill up so they can't harm the innocents of society or letting the mentally ill continue to prey on the innocents of society? Do the rights of the many outweigh the rights of the few? Fuel for thought.

[nesteel]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

Which is the greater wrong, locking the mentally ill up so they can't harm the innocents of society or letting the mentally ill continue to prey on the innocents of society? Do the rights of the many outweigh the rights of the few? Fuel for thought.

You're attempting to apply common sense to government. Fools errand any more.

[parris]

One of the things that I've seen over my career in corrections is that often times local judges will remand a low level offense to our facility when the offender had MH issues NOT so much to protect society but rather to get that person at least a minimum level of care and protection.

My facility has 24/7/365 medical staffing as well as mental health services in house. Many first responders have become the front lines in the mental health crisis. It doesn't matter if it's LEO, Corrections, EMT, etc. ALL the professionals "in the business" have seen a massive upswing in mental health issues.

Here in NYS there's been a further problem that may be similar in other states and that is the closing of mental health facilities where many of these people get the care that they actually need in order to survive.

There's tons more to the issue of course.

[cash05458]

bottom line...no matter which side you are on politically...is that not many folks really care about the society they live in...some do and work there and I will give them that...but it is "I have got mine, you got yours and so **** you" if you fall thru the cracks for better or worse...to think anyone in this country really gives a **** about the mentally ill or folks down on their luck is silly...at least at any level of actual reality that is serious and in a real manner? no way and no how...it's dog eats dog...merry xmas...just stop pretending...go with it but be honest.

[Ken Robb]

A cynical person might suspect that a state legislature could see a way to save $$ for their favorite programs by eliminating state mental health programs ostensibly for the benefit of people unjustly confined. Many of those former patients become homeless but that will become a problem for local governments to solve and pay for.

[b33]

I see a myriad of responses in this thread.

None of the responses acknowledged that, in this particular thread, the homeless person in question was: Yale educated, black, and had a husband.

An Ivy League educated African American who also happened to have a sexual orientation towards the same sex . . . . . . . I can not even empathize.

Not sure many here can either.

As a white male who has a sexual orientation to the ladies I know, as a fact, I can't have sympathy . . . I'm trying to have a modicum of empathy.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by b33

I see a myriad of responses in this thread.

None of the responses acknowledged that, in this particular thread, the homeless person in question was: Yale educated, black, and had a husband.

An Ivy League educated African American who also happened to have a sexual orientation towards the same sex . . . . . . . I can not even empathize.

Not sure many here can either.

As a white male who has a sexual orientation to the ladies I know, as a fact, I can't have sympathy . . . I'm trying to have a modicum of empathy.

I think you're mistaken. Thankfully.

Edit: I'm hoping I misread your post. It sounded like the individual was less deserving of sympathy because he is gay and black.

[rnhood]

No empathy here either. However, there were some good comments in this thread wrt the homeless problem in general.

[b33]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

[/B]
I think you're mistaken. Thankfully.

Edit: I'm hoping I misread your post. It sounded like the individual was less deserving of sympathy because he is gay and black.

You drew that . . . . what I am saying is there is a difference between empathy and sympathy - words matter.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by b33

You drew that . . . . what I am saying is there is a difference between empathy and sympathy - words matter.

Yes, Sir. I come from a journalism background, so I agree that words matter. To my reading, you have "sympathy" and "empathy" confused. But either way, I'm still perplexed why you saw it necessary to highlight the individual's race and sexual orientation.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Yes, Sir. I come from a journalism background, so I agree that words matter. To my reading, you have "sympathy" and "empathy" confused. But either way, I'm still perplexed why you saw it necessary to highlight the individual's race and sexual orientation.

I think the poster you are criticizing was making the point that the subject of the article life story was so different than his it is hard for him to relate.

I will remind everyone in this holiday season we are all humans and have the same universal feelings regardless of who we are, our value systems and experiences.

[el cheapo]

I feel for the mentally and physically challenged that end up homeless. Resources should focus on these deserving folks. For the rest, it's bad life choices. Just because you make bad decisions doesn't mean I should feel responsible for you. Don't use drugs...don't guzzle Vodka...don't have 25 kids...don't break the law...don't live in high cost of living areas with a minimum wage job. I don't ever expect somebody to baby sit me and I'm a democrat!