Custom Frames and New Builders

[54ny77]

Is that a big kahuna burger? Now that's a tasty burger!

Originally Posted by happycampyer

If I'm not mistaken, this forum was originally a subforum on a bigger cycling forum (or phorum) run by Kahuna, with subforums for various builders. The two subforums that generated the most traffic were Calfee and Serottta. After a few years, Serotta took over its subforum and spun it off. There is some interesting history/backstory here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256

[Mzilliox]

One perspective. We are humans. Sometimes humans connect with other humans. some humans have plenty of cash so as not to worry about a 2k bike purchase.

I looked for a while for a builder for my wifes bike. I asked new guys and old guys. One person seemed to really "get" the project. That person is a new builder. I took a chance. It turned out better than expected. Life is full of moments, mistakes and triumphs. If you never take risks, your rewards are less.

Embrace the human experience. We are not machines

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

There is some interesting history/backstory here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256

Ya great stuff in the older archives.

[zambenini]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

One perspective. We are humans. Sometimes humans connect with other humans. some humans have plenty of cash so as not to worry about a 2k bike purchase.



I looked for a while for a builder for my wifes bike. I asked new guys and old guys. One person seemed to really "get" the project. That person is a new builder. I took a chance. It turned out better than expected. Life is full of moments, mistakes and triumphs. If you never take risks, your rewards are less.



Embrace the human experience. We are not machines

A great point. I would add it doesn't only come down to what one can afford but also what one values and makes a priority. In other words people can afford a lot of different things (creditors will generally give you an inflated figure) but don't necessarily prioritize them. Cars are a good example for me. I don't value cars even if I can get approved for a loan on a 2019 Whatever. For me, $3k car, $5k bike. Add those two up and a lot of people spend more than 8k on their cars. (My current car, a sick Ford Econoline was closer to 5, in the interest of full disclosure, but yeah, it's 15 years old and totally B.A.). Computers too. I have gotten away with spending 250 on a Chromebook and 600 on a tablet with keyboard as a laptop replacement - over the past 7.5 years... when you figure in phones I am just over a grand in that same time period. I don't value tech. Some people do. I sure wish I had bought stock with what I spent on gadgets in the ten years before that!!! Compromises.

This is a joke and not a dis to the OP, I swear, but sometimes I wonder if threads like this are planted to get our wheels spinning and remind us that bikes belong somewhere in the value calculus we all do when deciding what to do with our money, time, and life. Bikes are very nice. Very nice indeed.

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[d_douglas]

This is a long thread and I haven't read the entire thing, but its an interesting subject. I have recently shelved the dream of an $8k bike in favour of more renovations on my first house. That was painful but I know its the right thing to do and while my wife didn't say I couldn't buy the bike, I know her thoughts on it !!

Anyways, I was researching builders and it dawned on me the range of cost for framesets is not necessarily directly related to the quality of workmanship. There are people like Dave Kirk, Richard Sachs and Nick Crumpton who are the 'grandmasters' of framebuilding (in my opinion) and they charge what they charge not only because of their experience but also to support their financial goals - its a fact of life. I assume that they have a baseline of what they want to earn and it correlates to cost of living amongst many other things.

One of the builders on my shortlist was Chris Dekerf in Vancouver - he is also extremely experienced and skilled and he charges a lot for his frames, but the fact is that he lives in Vancouver - an incredibly expensive city. It is his home and I assume that he owns a house there, so he needs to pay his mortgage and this is how he does it. When I was speaking with him about how many hours go into building a frameset, he said that he tries not to track this, as he is now less interested in pumping out volume and more interested in building things that please him and his clients as well as challenge his skillset, which I loved.

As for 'emerging' framebuilders, I have no issue with people charging what they charge. I think that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that if a builder sells enough frames that people are impressed with, then their cost and reputation is deserved; inversely, if they sell enough frames that people are disappointed with, this will also impact their reputation and livelihood.

In the end, they all need to make a living and I hope that these esteemed folks charge what they need to charge to both keep the lights on, but also to set themselves up for a lifestyle that they want to lead, whatever that might be. I make a modest salary and live in an expensive city - if I want to live in a nicer house or drive a nicer car, I need to change jobs or ask my boss for a raise, but I don't work in an entrepreneurial capacity like they do, so they need to adjust pricing to accommodate their financial goals.

I might be totally offbase on this one (and await criticism and correction!!), but as a person who spends his days emailing and sitting in meetings, I admire and envy the skills that framebuilders have to actually MAKE things that people love to use.

Now, I need to win $10k in a lottery and resurrect the bike dream that has not vapourized

[d_douglas]

PS I am a person with few luxuries in my life. I wear basic clothes, eat normal food, drive a regular car, etc. My sole extravagance is bikes.

That said, most of my money goes into my family life, travel, etc, which is perfectly fine for me.

[buddybikes]

Or make a lot of money (fixing teeth, investing peoples money, opening up knees, taking on legal cases, selling a startup) and buy whatever you want...

[zambenini]

But it is possible to spend money on bad things. People do it all the time. Bikes are good.

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[pdonk]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

... I have recently shelved the dream of an $8k bike in favour of more renovations on my first house. That was painful but I know its the right thing to do and while my wife didn't say I couldn't buy the bike, I know her thoughts on it !! …..

Funny thing is that we agreed with one another to shelve a house renovation and that made the decision to buy my new bike much easier.

As for a dekerf, love mine even after 23 years, good money spent, same with my brodie after 30, and my moots after 7. Hopefully my SV is the same.

[colker]

Originally Posted by jtakeda

Im not sure income is relevant. If anyone on that list comes out and says XX Builders frames are trash many thousands of people will see that and disseminate that information.

On the flip if a small builder catches one of these peoples eye then all of the sudden theyre in the spotlight.

Isn´t Instagram a bit superficial to make you buy a custom frame? A 1x2in picture and a list of likes?

[m4rk540]

Originally Posted by zambenini

This is a joke and not a dis to the OP, I swear, but sometimes I wonder if threads like this are planted to get our wheels spinning and remind us that bikes belong somewhere in the value calculus we all do when deciding what to do with our money, time, and life. Bikes are very nice. Very nice indeed.

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Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

Or make a lot of money (fixing teeth, investing peoples money, opening up knees, taking on legal cases, selling a startup) and buy whatever you want...

Again, no judgment. The $6 burger is no longer the $6 burger. I just saw Lamborghini Aventador on my lunch ride and didn't think, "why did he spend his hard earned money on that?" I guess I'm just wondering if there are any other goods and services where people are more "exuberant." A hot new restaurant doesn't need any track record...

Are there watchmakers who have only been in the game for 6 months?

[Charles M]

I think this thread originates on the bad assumption that people spent top dollar on unknown builders?

Damn near everyone that gets into building starts at the bottom and builds a reputation that allows the $ to follow.

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by Charles M

I think this thread originates on the bad assumption that people spent top dollar on unknown builders?

Damn near everyone that gets into building starts at the bottom and builds a reputation that allows the $ to follow.

I think the time to getting to the top dollar rates has compressed vs the olde days of toiling for decades, as Kirk, Sachs, Dekerf, and many others have done.

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by colker

Isn´t Instagram a bit superficial to make you buy a custom frame? A 1x2in picture and a list of likes?

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

[colker]

Originally Posted by jtakeda

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

Yeah.. i was following the film rennaissance till i got sick of looking at Leica fashion on instagram. The irony being everyone wants a Leica to have "the real thing" but doing it because it´s big on line.