Frame alignemnt question

[yashcha]

Just received a custom frame and noticed that the wheel is off center between the seatstays but centered between the chainstays. Is this an acceptable amount of error and should not affect ride quality? I think it is about 1.5-2mm to the left. The wheel is new and is properly dished. Using an alignment tool the dropouts appear to be aligned. Thanks all!

[MRB]

You might try holding it in position when you close the quick release. Assuming you are using a quick release.

[David Tollefson]

You likely won't feel anything amiss in the ride.

Another question is whether the brake bridge and seatstays are centered to the plane of the frame in that location. Not difficult to check, but if they're not completely centered, and the wheel is running in plane, then ignore it. The brake will work just fine, and once it's got a little dirt on it no one will be any the wiser.

But... if it's really bothering you, you can take a file to the NDS dropout and VERY carefully and SLOWLY bring that side up the couple .0001's of an inch that it'll take to get it centered.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by MRB

You might try holding it in position when you close the quick release. Assuming you are using a quick release.

When I center the wheel using this method, the wheel is off center at the chainstays.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by David Tollefson

You likely won't feel anything amiss in the ride.

Another question is whether the brake bridge and seatstays are centered to the plane of the frame in that location. Not difficult to check, but if they're not completely centered, and the wheel is running in plane, then ignore it. The brake will work just fine, and once it's got a little dirt on it no one will be any the wiser.

But... if it's really bothering you, you can take a file to the NDS dropout and VERY carefully and SLOWLY bring that side up the couple .0001's of an inch that it'll take to get it centered.

Wo. So even if the wheel is not centered between the seatstays, overall it may be centered?

[David Kirk]

Have you spoken with the builder?

The first thing I would do would be to put the bike on the floor and remove the QR skewer letting gravity hold the wheel in place. Now get down on your hands and knees and look at the drop outs and axle from the end on both sides. You want to see that the axle is fully seated in the dropout slot. One can have a paint build up in the slot that will keep it from fully seating and with the skewer out of the way you'll be able to see what's going on.

If the axle is all the way up in the slots on both sides and is 1.5 - 2.0 mm closer to one seat stay than the other then something is amiss. Would this cause any issues? It could pull gently to one side when riding no handed but it's hard to say how much you might notice that. At the same time time it's not right and I'd want it addressed.

I can say that many builders shoot for a "TIR" (total indicator reading) of 1/2 mm.....meaning that the distance from the rim to the stay on one side should be no more than +/- 1/2 mm on the other side. I personally will not let anything go out that is more than 1/4 mm TIR. This is a long way of saying that 1.5 - 2 mm is a big number.

I hope that helps.

dave

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Have you spoken with the builder?

The first thing I would do would be to put the bike on the floor and remove the QR skewer letting gravity hold the wheel in place. Now get down on your hands and knees and look at the drop outs and axle from the end on both sides. You want to see that the axle is fully seated in the dropout slot. One can have a paint build up in the slot that will keep it from fully seating and with the skewer out of the way you'll be able to see what's going on.

If the axle is all the way up in the slots on both sides and is 1.5 - 2.0 mm closer to one seat stay than the other then something is amiss. Would this cause any issues? It could pull gently to one side when riding no handed but it's hard to say how much you might notice that. At the same time time it's not right and I'd want it addressed.

I can say that many builders shoot for a "TIR" (total indicator reading) of 1/2 mm.....meaning that the distance from the rim to the stay on one side should be no more than +/- 1/2 mm on the other side. I personally will not let anything go out that is more than 1/4 mm TIR. This is a long way of saying that 1.5 - 2 mm is a big number.

I hope that helps.

dave

Thank you Dave, still waiting on a response from the builder but as they are in Europe I think having them examine it will be impossible. The axles are all the way in the dropouts on both sides and I tested this numerous times.
This is actually the second frame they made since the first one was off center by even more, both in the chainstay and the Seatstay. Sigh.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by David Tollefson

You likely won't feel anything amiss in the ride.
Another question is whether the brake bridge and seatstays are centered to the plane of the frame in that location.

Re: The centering of the brake bridge-That was going to be my suggestion as well-before you go filing anything, I suggest using a vernier to confirm the brake bridge (specifically the hole) is centered between the seatstays. Easy enough for a home mechanic to do.

The "no-hands" test is my litmus test for whether a frame is "straight enough", so if it passes measurement above, try riding it. There's a certain amount of error you just won't notice. Of course, if the brake hole is off center, resulting in the brake being cocked to one side proper centering, that's not good either.

If the brake bridge is centered and you've already confirmed the wheel is dished correctly, and you've already followed Dave Kirk's instructions to verify the wheel is sitting properly in the dropouts, then you could conclude the rear end is not constructed to allow the wheel to align in both planes.

Since the frame was ordered from a foreign country, I can understand why you'd be reluctant to shipping it back. If you have a good local builder, it would be worth taking it to them to confirm if the wheel sits out of plane to the frame. Most have a simple, accurate tool that when combined with a surface plate will show the error instantly.

If you go this route, bring a camera and photograph the error. Armed with irrefutable evidence, the original builder is more likely to make you whole, one way or another.

I mention all this because I had a custom frame built which pulled to one side. I brought it to a highly respected local builder and he ran through a complete alignment check, at my expense. With that information I was able to get a prompt refund from the original builder (it was the second time I sent the frame back. The first time I gave the builder the opportunity to correct his "mistakes".)

Let the forum know the results of your testing and if the builder does right by you in the end.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by yashcha

Thank you Dave, still waiting on a response from the builder but as they are in Europe I think having them examine it will be impossible. The axles are all the way in the dropouts on both sides and I tested this numerous times.
This is actually the second frame they made since the first one was off center by even more, both in the chainstay and the Seatstay. Sigh.

Well that us a bummer. It seems like they must have a systematic issue.


It seems your options are -

* send it back and have them make it right if they can.

* send it back and ask for a full refund.

* keep it and get it to a pro builder to have it made right and send the bill to the builder in Europe.


Not that you asked me.....but.....I'd ask them to send a call tag for return shipping and ask for a full refund. Then take that money and buy something from a reputable builder in the USA. Life's too short for stuff like this.

dave

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Well that us a bummer. It seems like they must have a systematic issue.


It seems your options are -

* send it back and have them make it right if they can.

* send it back and ask for a full refund.

* keep it and get it to a pro builder to have it made right and send the bill to the builder in Europe.


Not that you asked me.....but.....I'd ask them to send a call tag for return shipping and ask for a full refund. Then take that money and buy something from a reputable builder in the USA. Life's too short for stuff like this.

dave

i was living abroad at the time and this frame builder had a great reputation. I initially asked for my money back when the first frame came and it was a complete mess. They offered to build a new one which I accepted since they promised to make it perfect. Looking back I should have fought harder to get my money back. It has been almost 11 months since I ordered the frame after almost 7 months of delays. Feel very much running out of patience. Another customer approached me
and told me that he had to go to court to get them to deliver a working frame. I agree. All my other custom frames are made in the US but I wanted to try some
thing different this time.

[ultraman6970]

It will suck what im going to say but if you know you will have problems getting your money back I would just leave it like that.

The other detail just because I have not seen anybody saying it (maybe somebody said it)... well if could be a problem with the drop outs not being aligned, not a frame problem. Get the drop outs straight is not that hard, you can do it at home with a couple of axles and bolts, or any lbs can fix that.

Seen this before and actually had a track frame made with the problem, like 1 mm off just like yours, put it in a table and perfect, dropouts perfect aswell. Never had a single problem with it either, since I needed it and since builders in my country built with no jig I never bother to even find out why.

Seen italian brand name frames with stuff like that aswell.

Build it, and see how it goes, after you install the brakes I doubt you or anybody will even notice.

[pbarry]

Hmm, you're in a pickle. Worth it to find a local builder to put the frame on a surface plate and see what's up. A bit of minor dropout filing may clear things up, but that's not for amateurs.

Also, to my eye, the left side of the fabricated brake bridge looks shorter than the right: That's not the whole issue, but it seems to be there.

[ultraman6970]

If you are in the US, VA specifically give a call to aaron dykstra at 611 bike co... he has a table and is a very good builder. This kid is good.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

... Then take that money and buy something from a reputable builder in the USA.

I agree that for U.S. residents, it's probably wiser to stick with domestic builders for the specific reason that if you have issues such as the OP is dealing with, it's not a shipping headache.

I had another U.S. built frame aside from the one I mentioned above, that was delivered with issues. I sent it from the east coast to the west coast and it was hardly a blip on the radar as far as shipping and communicating.

To the OP: I recognize the builder from your photo. I got the impression from their web site that they were a very professional operation, and admired their work. From your story, it seems a polished web site is not enough to deliver a quality product. Sorry to hear of your problems; report back with the final result.

[zank]

Yash, bring it to my place.