Custom Frames and New Builders

[Doug Fattic]

I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for over 40 years so this discussion is interesting to me. I try to keep track of my students to see if their dreams have turned into reality. While some just take the class to make something custom instead of buying it, most say they will be keeping their day job but maybe if things go right it can become a business. It seldom does and I’ll explain why.

A decent percentage of students just don’t have the natural talent to be good just like not everyone is musical or athletic. Another good size chunk can’t afford the tooling and equipment necessary to make frames efficiently. Including in that group is finding a place to build which stumps quite a few. And some just don’t like solitary work that requires time management. It is a challenge to make a good frame fast enough to be profitable. I expect all my students to make a professional quality frame in class. Most can do this because they take 3 or more times longer to make their frame then a professional. Reducing that time isn’t something everyone can do. Of course some can’t without my help. It isn’t easy to fill an order book that requires marketing and bedside manner skills too.

Now if someone passes all those tests a common barrier still is the problem of limited income working for oneself and not being able to afford health insurance. Most of my students that have started selling frames still do other kind of jobs that bring in money. And probably a wife that works.

[m4rk540]

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for over 40 years so this discussion is interesting to me. I try to keep track of my students to see if their dreams have turned into reality. While some just take the class to make something custom instead of buying it, most say they will be keeping their day job but maybe if things go right it can become a business. It seldom does and I’ll explain why.



A decent percentage of students just don’t have the natural talent to be good just like not everyone is musical or athletic. Another good size chunk can’t afford the tooling and equipment necessary to make frames efficiently. Including in that group is finding a place to build which stumps quite a few. And some just don’t like solitary work that requires time management. It is a challenge to make a good frame fast enough to be profitable. I expect all my students to make a professional quality frame in class. Most can do this because they take 3 or more times longer to make their frame then a professional. Reducing that time isn’t something everyone can do. Of course some can’t without my help. It isn’t easy to fill an order book that requires marketing and bedside manner skills too.



Now if someone passes all those tests a common barrier still is the problem of limited income working for oneself and not being able to afford health insurance. Most of my students that have started selling frames still do other kind of jobs that bring in money. And probably a wife that works.

Thank you for making the time ti write this

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.

Almost all of my students have either an art or engineering background. Art students like to carve blank lugs and engineering students are likely to make a randonneuring frame. I can only think of one that had a business background. He discovered that it took him too long to make a frame to the standard he thought acceptable and still make a profit. There are several that started on 2nd base with decent family financial backing to start some kind of business of their choice. Those are the ones that have been most successful. I get quite a few foreign students who have different financial expectations.

I’m also likely to get the most serious student. I don’t go out of my way to promote myself so the ones most likely to attend my class do the most research on where to learn how to build frames. I’m one of those that went to Europe in the 70’s to learn and have degrees in teaching education. My classes run longer with fewer students. And we do this project to make bicycles for pastors in Ukraine where they go for 2 or 3 months making transportation frames in a shop on a college campus (so they can live in a dorm and eat in the cafeteria) to refine their brazing skills.

Almost none of my students lately plan on making frames full time. It isn’t uncommon for some near retirement to figure this is a way they can keep busy after their regular job is done. One guy was given my class as a retirement gift from his children. He really didn’t want to take the class but his wife said he had no choice because their kids had studied carefully their gift options and he was not going to disappoint them. We actually had a lot of fun in class. I told him not to worry I would do the parts that were difficult or that he didn’t want to do. He discovered that a frame made to his requirements rode a lot better than all his other bicycles. His classmate was Nolan that was a pilot that got cancer so he couldn’t fly anymore. During his recovery he found bicycles as part of the solution. Unfortunately his cancer returned after class and he lost that battle. I was saddened thinking about him yesterday as I was working on a twin plate fork. Nolan had helped me figure out tooling to keep the plates square when they were brazed together.

I might add it isn’t so easy to build a good frame. Maybe a third have already taken a framebuilding class somewhere else and knew that didn’t know enough to make more. I'm always doing little corrections even after they have read what to do, seen a demonstration and have practiced before the doing the real thing.

[GParkes]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

Actually stumbled on this today. A bit of a coincidence after just referring to Curtlo. Take a peek, evidence that high quality and high cost aren't always directly correlated.

https://www.facebook.com/curtlocycle...type=3&theater

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by GParkes

Actually stumbled on this today. A bit of a coincidence after just referring to Curtlo. Take a peek, evidence that high quality and high cost aren't always directly correlated.

https://www.facebook.com/curtlocycle...type=3&theater

And Curtli Cycles had been doing it for years too. I thought I was ahead of the curve by riding disc brakes on the road in 2006, a guy had Curtlo build him one that same year. And yes, for a decent price too!

Here, from 2006:
I went with disc brakes because I love the stopping power of the Avids. I have them on my MTB and with my weight (260's currently) I want to be able to stop, rain or shine. With normal road brakes I've had some stopping power issues, especially in the rain.


Total cost: $2077.00 (consider it's custom steel with Ultegra components that's a very, very good deal)
Total wait: 4 months (partly due to tube shipping delay.

He was very receptive to my ideas and worked with me on what I wanted. He will basically build the bike bike you want, if he thinks things are a little out of whack he will discuss them with you and work with you to come up with the best solution."

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...tlo-63453.html

[GParkes]

Originally Posted by Burnette

And Curtli Cycles had been doing it for years too. I thought I was ahead of the curve by riding disc brakes on the road in 2006, a guy had Curtlo build him one that same year. And yes, for a decent price too!

Here, from 2006:
I went with disc brakes because I love the stopping power of the Avids. I have them on my MTB and with my weight (260's currently) I want to be able to stop, rain or shine. With normal road brakes I've had some stopping power issues, especially in the rain.


Total cost: $2077.00 (consider it's custom steel with Ultegra components that's a very, very good deal)
Total wait: 4 months (partly due to tube shipping delay.

He was very receptive to my ideas and worked with me on what I wanted. He will basically build the bike bike you want, if he thinks things are a little out of whack he will discuss them with you and work with you to come up with the best solution."

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...tlo-63453.html

Good choice on your constructeur Wayne....

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by GParkes

Good choice on your constructeur Wayne....

That wasn't mine, my bike was/is a Redline Conquest Disc cyclocross bike that was on sale for about nine hundred dollars.. The guy in that thread got a nice custom or two grand!

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Doug, have you had students who hit the ground running with the benefit of the right friends and right look? In other words, do you get students who enroll with a business plan and marketing strategy already worked out.

I developed a business plan and marketing strategy before I took a framebuilding class (not Doug's)--that's how I knew not to go into business selling frames.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I developed a business plan and marketing strategy before I took a framebuilding class (not Doug's)--that's how I knew not to go into business selling frames.

You're smarter than me, I wasted about $4000 before I realized I didn't control enough of the process to feel confident about liability. I wasn't going to put my wife through the possibility of losing her assets for the chance of having a sub-minimum wage job with absolutely no security. If I had to compete with Curtlo, with those ridiculous prices, I wouldn't be making enough to be worth it anyway. Better financially to just work as a walmart greeter and build for fun. There were plenty of people 10 years ago signing up to sell a lugged frame/fork for $1200. Let's say you sell 10 frames a year, $250 of that goes to insurance. Fixed costs for parts easily approach $500, powder coat isn't free. It's pretty easy to get to a point where your hourly wage is less than a dollar.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by unterhausen

You're smarter than me, I wasted about $4000 before I realized I didn't control enough of the process to feel confident about liability. I wasn't going to put my wife through the possibility of losing her assets for the chance of having a sub-minimum wage job with absolutely no security. If I had to compete with Curtlo, with those ridiculous prices, I wouldn't be making enough to be worth it anyway. Better financially to just work as a walmart greeter and build for fun. There were plenty of people 10 years ago signing up to sell a lugged frame/fork for $1200. Let's say you sell 10 frames a year, $250 of that goes to insurance. Fixed costs for parts easily approach $500, powder coat isn't free. It's pretty easy to get to a point where your hourly wage is less than a dollar.

10 frames/year?

you're talking about hobby building i assume, not full time?

less than a frame a month would be a tragically low number for someone trying to earn a living selling bicycles, no?

[PaMtbRider]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

10 frames/year?

you're talking about hobby building i assume, not full time?

less than a frame a month would be a tragically low number for someone trying to earn a living selling bicycles, no?

Which is a point I've heard experienced builders make several times. Many new builders want to concentrate on how efficiently they are going to be making frames and managing time. Until they have orders for said frames, it doesn't matter how efficient they are.

[weisan]

Dave Kirk podcast

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by PaMtbRider

Which is a point I've heard experienced builders make several times. Many new builders want to concentrate on how efficiently they are going to be making frames and managing time. Until they have orders for said frames, it doesn't matter how efficient they are.

haha, excellent point!

[Doug Fattic]

Most professional builders I know do not build full time. They do other work to make money and their family financial plan includes a wife that has a job with benefits. In addition their living and shop space benefit from some unusual arraignment. For example among my students are those that have a bike shop, one is an editor of an industrial magazine, another is a graphic designer. Among my colleagues that started 30 or more years ago, one lives with his parents and makes some kind of exercise equipment for a fitness chain, another waited until after they retired to go full time.

Two of my favorite questions to ask other frame builders are how long does it take you to build a frame and how many frames do you make a year? I'm mostly sworn to secrecy so I could get an honest answer but the truth is their numbers are pretty modest for many builders including some well known ones.