The fall of Kona Bikes :(

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

SRAM Apex is, ironically, their lowest level. It's a 12sp electronic or 11sp mechanical.

When that is their entry level, I think my comment holds true- SRAM has clearly said they don't care about offering less expensive options.

Apex is now hydraulic and 12spd mechanical. It came on the Intense 951 I picked up on sale from Costco for around $1,650 with tax and free shipping. It is a bit clunky compared to the AXS and electronic groups, but the hydraulic brakes are better than the 11spd Force level hydros and now use mineral oil instead of Dot 3. It's a decent groupset for the intended purpose, but certainly not a high end mechanical group.


Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

SRAM Apex is, ironically, their lowest level. It's a 12sp electronic or 11sp mechanical.
When that is their entry level, I think my comment holds true- SRAM has clearly said they don't care about offering less expensive options.

A quick search shows *new* 2x11 Rival groupsets for $460. A price that hasnt really changed in the ~10 years this group has been available.

How much cheaper do you want it, honestly?

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by .RJ

Sram still has Rival and Apex, Shimano has 105 mechanical, plus robot shifted versions of both.

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Also 11s 105 was roughly $800 USD when introduced in 2015, which is about $1050 now. Ultegra 11s was about $1250 when introd in 2014, about $1650 now. Ultegra grx 12s mechanical is $1167. So pricing for shimano stuff has roughly stayed the same of not gone down for mechanical since they are more invested in electric.

People gonna believe what they want to believe.

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

What is “less expensive” mean to you? Is it a $700 current price groupset? $1000? $500?

As mentioned sram has a 1x 12s groupset that’s available for ~950. That’s less than 105 (which is apparently your baseline ) was when adjusting for inflation. And there are 2x12s shimano offerings for ~1200, and 2x12 sram electronic for ~1300. And are you only considering “road” groupsets even though the biggest growth sector is gravel/allroad?

There are clearly still bikes with analogous groupsets at certain price points when compare to past offerings, but they’re no longer solely in the “road” or “road racing” category, they’ve migrated to the gravel to allroad sector. I know it’s a tired analogy, but it’s kind of like saying there are no more affordable sports coupes available for purchase while ignoring the fact that consumer preferences have changed.

And just to further prove the point, how many professional road races are there in the US this year? And how many professional gravel races?

Originally Posted by Hilltopperny

Apex is now hydraulic and 12spd mechanical. It came on the Intense 951 I picked up on sale from Costco for around $1,650 with tax and free shipping. It is a bit clunky compared to the AXS and electronic groups, but the hydraulic brakes are better than the 11spd Force level hydros and now use mineral oil instead of Dot 3. It's a decent groupset for the intended purpose, but certainly not a high end mechanical group.

Originally Posted by .RJ

A quick search shows *new* 2x11 Rival groupsets for $460. A price that hasnt really changed in the ~10 years this group has been available.

How much cheaper do you want it, honestly?

Wow, I clearly opened a wound with my jokingly phrased comments about how each brand views the market right now and whether they have blind spots or not.

Lets all remember that the post where I claim SRAM has clearly said they don't care about offering less expensive options was in response to another poster claiming brands have blind spots when it comes to affordability and access to equipment.

I said SRAM doesnt have this blindspot and is choosing to move in the direction they have been moving.
As for me comment that they dont care about offering less expensive options, well that should be pretty clear based on what they have done over the last 6 years-
- SRAM no longer offers 9sp or 10sp. Even Apex 1 and Force 22 are both 11sp.
- SRAM's lowest level drop bar drivetrain, Apex, has an electronic shifting option and is 12sp.


SRAM does not care about offering less expensive options than what they now offer.
^ this comment can be true, even if some of SRAM's current options are not expensive relative to the rest of the market. It looks like some posters here cant understand that.

If SRAM wanted to offer less expensive option, it would. Its really quite simple. Instead, SRAM decided to stop offering 9sp, stopped offering 10sp, has almost entirely elimintaed rim brake offerings, and decided to offer even its lowest end model with 12sp, hydraulic brakes, and electronic shifting.


Further, if a full Rival mechanical groupset costs only $460(I havent seen that, but I will accept it as true for this comment), then that actually supports my initial comment that SRAM does not care about offering less expensive options that what they now offer.
Somehow that being supportive of my initial comment wasnt noticed.





- My post was not complaining about SRAM.
- My post was not complaining about groupsets being too expensive.
- My post WAS pointing out that bike brands and group brands know what they are doing when it comes to designing and pricing products, and the claimed blind spot does not exist. It isnt a blind spot if it is seen and just not addressed.
- My post WAS pointing out that 2nd tier brands are filling in where main brands no longer offer product.


Wow, that simple pushback on the claim that there is a blindspot and the lower end of the market will be ignored which will make cycling exclusive(even more) was quite triggering. Triggering and really misunderstood.

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

Wow, I clearly opened a wound with my jokingly phrased comments about how each brand views the market right now and whether they have blind spots or not.

Lets all remember that the post where I claim SRAM has clearly said they don't care about offering less expensive options was in response to another poster claiming brands have blind spots when it comes to affordability and access to equipment.

I said SRAM doesnt have this blindspot and is choosing to move in the direction they have been moving.
As for me comment that they dont care about offering less expensive options, well that should be pretty clear based on what they have done over the last 6 years-
- SRAM no longer offers 9sp or 10sp. Even Apex 1 and Force 22 are both 11sp.
- SRAM's lowest level drop bar drivetrain, Apex, has an electronic shifting option and is 12sp.


SRAM does not care about offering less expensive options than what they now offer.
^ this comment can be true, even if some of SRAM's current options are not expensive relative to the rest of the market. It looks like some posters here cant understand that.

If SRAM wanted to offer less expensive option, it would. Its really quite simple. Instead, SRAM decided to stop offering 9sp, stopped offering 10sp, has almost entirely elimintaed rim brake offerings, and decided to offer even its lowest end model with 12sp, hydraulic brakes, and electronic shifting.


Further, if a full Rival mechanical groupset costs only $460(I havent seen that, but I will accept it as true for this comment), then that actually supports my initial comment that SRAM does not care about offering less expensive options that what they now offer.
Somehow that being supportive of my initial comment wasnt noticed.





- My post was not complaining about SRAM.
- My post was not complaining about groupsets being too expensive.
- My post WAS pointing out that bike brands and group brands know what they are doing when it comes to designing and pricing products, and the claimed blind spot does not exist. It isnt a blind spot if it is seen and just not addressed.
- My post WAS pointing out that 2nd tier brands are filling in where main brands no longer offer product.


Wow, that simple pushback on the claim that there is a blindspot and the lower end of the market will be ignored which will make cycling exclusive(even more) was quite triggering. Triggering and really misunderstood.

I simply pointed out that the group exists in 12spd. Nothing more than that. Not quite sure why you included me in your rant!:

[EB]

Wow, this thread has veered in all kinds of... directions. Didn't think we'd get to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and hedonic quality adjustment!

To bring it back to the original topic, Andrew Major has a good listicle up on the-crappy-website-still-known-as-Bike-Mag-for-some-reason:

https://www.bikemag.com/gear/to-all-the-konas-ive-loved

Hard to say if the Honzo or the Stinky is more iconic, but probably the Honzo for how it changed the approach to 29er geometry.

[charliedid]

I say let it die.

I have favorable opinions/memories of the brand but I fear for its irrelevant future if sold for nothing more than brand Identity.

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by EB

Wow, this thread has veered in all kinds of... directions. Didn't think we'd get to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and hedonic quality adjustment!

To bring it back to the original topic, Andrew Major has a good listicle up on the-crappy-website-still-known-as-Bike-Mag-for-some-reason:

https://www.bikemag.com/gear/to-all-the-konas-ive-loved

Hard to say if the Honzo or the Stinky is more iconic, but probably the Honzo for how it changed the approach to 29er geometry.

I just bought a 2013 Honzo locally - so I now own an icon! In all seriousness, these bikes get rave reviews. My bike snob buddy who only rides bikes less than a year old said it was a cool bike and that if I want it, I should buy it - and I did!

Photos coming shortly...

[EB]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

I just bought a 2013 Honzo locally - so I now own an icon! In all seriousness, these bikes get rave reviews. My bike snob buddy who only rides bikes less than a year old said it was a cool bike and that if I want it, I should buy it - and I did!

Photos coming shortly...

Good call, the Honzo is pretty much timeless, including that model. Later models had more tire clearance and were longer/slacker, but not a big deal - your 2013 enduro shredder is now a cross-country bike with a higher stack! Only annoyance is non-boost spacing.

[spoonrobot]

This is a complex topic. I firmly believe based on the research I've done, the cost of almost everything including and related to bicycles has decreased in relative price the past 30+ years.

These are from 1997, but it doesn't matter you can pick a period anywhere from the mid-90s to 2020 and it's the same story.

[spoonrobot]

Imagine paying $90 to watch a VHS on your 27" picture tube television, of a bicycle race that happened last year.

"This doesn't have auto tracking, I'll get up and mess with it tell me when it looks the best..."

"Oh FFS my Dad didn't rewind it hold on"

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

If SRAM wanted to offer less expensive option, it would. Its really quite simple. Instead, SRAM decided to stop offering 9sp, stopped offering 10sp, has almost entirely elimintaed rim brake offerings, and decided to offer even its lowest end model with 12sp, hydraulic brakes, and electronic shifting.

Sram never had 9 speed road parts, 9 speed mountain parts were 30 years ago. They're still making available their 11 speed, cable shifted road and mountain parts now.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

Further, if a full Rival mechanical groupset costs only $460(I havent seen that, but I will accept it as true for this comment), then that actually supports my initial comment that SRAM does not care about offering less expensive options that what they now offer.
Somehow that being supportive of my initial comment wasnt noticed.

I dont even know what you're arguing about, unless you're looking for Sram to offer parts in a market like shimano 8/9 speed for cheap hybrid bikes when they've never done that.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by .RJ

Sram never had 9 speed road parts, 9 speed mountain parts were 30 years ago. They're still making available their 11 speed, cable shifted road and mountain parts now.



I dont even know what you're arguing about, unless you're looking for Sram to offer parts in a market like shimano 8/9 speed for cheap hybrid bikes when they've never done that.

Is this correct that SRAM never had 9 speed parts? You can still get Stan 9 Speed chains and road cassettes that come in like 11-26, 11-28 and 12-26/28!

I know there are 9 speed mtb parts too.

Good Luck!

[benb]

SRAM hadn’t even moved to ten speed 20 years ago, the claim 9 speed mountain was 30 years ago seems off.

I could have sworn I got X.0 in 2006 and IIRC it was current at that time and was 9-speed.

I didn’t think they had any 10 speed at all until 2007 when Rival and Force launched for road.

Bottom line is SRAM has really led everything to march forward much much faster the last ten years. It feels like 11 speed was here and gone so fast it was easy to miss!

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by bfd

Is this correct that SRAM never had 9 speed parts? You can still get Stan 9 Speed chains and road cassettes that come in like 11-26, 11-28 and 12-26/28!

I know there are 9 speed mtb parts too.

Good Luck!

The original sram rival/force/red was 10-speed.

They had 8 and 9 speed mtb parts. The 9 speed mtb stuff was - and still is - I have it on a beater bike - really nice stuff.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by benb

Bottom line is SRAM has really led everything to march forward much much faster the last ten years. It feels like 11 speed was here and gone so fast it was easy to miss!

They were first to go to 12 speed and a different freehub driver for mountain bike and then the same for road parts, yep.

Would shimano have moved as quickly without sram pushing them, probably not. The new groupsets are pretty amazing stuff though.