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  #16  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:16 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is offline
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Originally Posted by woodworker View Post
I will try this out, but I find the adjustment to be counterintuitive.

This is the recommendation from Dave's blog post: "If you tend to fall forward when your hands are lifted it’s a good bet your saddle could go back. If you tend to fall back then your saddle is way too far back. The latter is pretty rare."

I'm trying to visualize this. If you tend to fall forward, then the saddle should go back. To me, it seems like this would make you fall forward more, as you would be more stretched out on the bike. But I may be all wrong.

Perhaps in moving the seat back, you have shifted your weight back slightly, placing less of your weight on the bars?

While my hands rarely hurt, and I tend to be pretty good in terms of staying low and using my glues, I don't think that I would stay up off of the bars doing the test. ...will check it our.

Thanks.
It is a bit counter-intuitive. But I'll bet that if you are sitting in a chair right now you can test it.

First slide your chair away from the desk a bit and put your feet a foot or so in front of your chair and then lean forward so that you are bent a bit at the waist. Put your hands on the desk. I'll bet there is very little weight on your hands.

Next slide your feet back under the chair so that they are fully under the chair and your butt. Now lean forward and put your hands on the desk. I'll bet you will feel a good bit more weight on your hands.

The reason for this is simple if not obvious - with your feet in front of the chair your hamstrings and butt muscles are supporting your torso so that you don't fall forward. Move the feet back and these massive muscle groups are much less in play and your upper body will be called on more to hold itself up.

This does two things - first is that it influences how much weight is on your hands and that may be of benefit to you. Secondly the weight not on your hands is transferred to your feet and this in turn applies force to the pedals and that is of course a good thing.

I hope that makes sense.

dave
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  #17  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:27 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is offline
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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
I don't think this method is any better than COPS. Seems to me you can have your saddle too far back with this method. Back in the day, the LeMond method recommended a saddle that was far back. I set up my bike that way and I got hamstring pain.
This method is just another way to determine a good fore/aft position of the saddle and is bio-mechanically much more on point compared to KOPS which has zero bio-mechanical reason for being.

You are of course correct - one could end up with the saddle further back than is ideal. One could move it back some and be happy and then move it back a lot more and still have it work judging by the weight on the hands and torso stability. So it's not a rough but inaccurate rule-of-thumb like KOPS and it is dynamic.

I'm one of those riders for whom KOPS does not work. I need to be behind this to have my knees, hips and lower back happy. Some people are perfectly happy with KOPS and that is fine by me. I'll bet that if those riders started over and tried this method that they would end up in much the same place. But for those who have no success with KOPS this can work very well.

Make some small incremental changes and once you feel good try going back further....do you feel better still? If not try going forward and keep doing that until you have narrowed in on a small range of saddle positions.

I'm going to wrap this up because it's time for me to put my butt in the saddle.

Have a good ride.

dave
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:59 PM
woodworker woodworker is offline
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Dave,

Thanks for the response above. I tried the chair experiment and now get the idea. I will try out your method on the bike.

The reference to Lemond above is interesting. I was listening to a Velonews Fasttalk podcast a little while back with Andy Pruitt, I think. He told a story about Lemond, who recommended to Ron Keifel (of the 7-11 squad back in the day) that he move his saddle all the way back. At the time, Lemond had adopted this position at the recommendation of his coaches and found that he felt more comfortable and had much greater power. Keifel followed this advice, then spent several months having to rehab his hamstrings.

Pruitt commented that Lemond had very long femurs. Keifel not so much, apparently. [Insert Pruitt chuckle here.]

Greg
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2019, 06:24 PM
rcornejo rcornejo is offline
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Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
[...]I think the overall balance of actually riding is all part of the equation [...]
That's the key...

thanks for the answer Dave!!!
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2019, 07:00 PM
MikeD MikeD is offline
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I got a Retul fit and my fore/aft saddle position was pretty close to the KOPS position I had it set to. Retul doesn't use KOPS.
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  #21  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:15 PM
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David Kirk David Kirk is offline
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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
I got a Retul fit and my fore/aft saddle position was pretty close to the KOPS position I had it set to. Retul doesn't use KOPS.
Cool - it sounds like you are in a good place. I'll bet that if you tried tthis method you'd end up in the same place.

dave
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  #22  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:56 PM
truth truth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
Cool - it sounds like you are in a good place. I'll bet that if you tried tthis method you'd end up in the same place.

dave
Hi Dave, thanks for the information on your web site and continuing the discussion here.

I'm under the impression that for fit, setback must be the first parameter to determine followed by reach. Is there an order in which you determine variables of fit?
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  #23  
Old 08-28-2019, 03:03 PM
woodworker woodworker is offline
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Tried out the "Kirk Setback Method" today. I seemed to be able to hover pretty well. I feel pretty well balanced on the bike and have few hand numbness issues. I'll keep the saddle where it is for now.

Thanks Dave.
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  #24  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:15 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Originally Posted by truth View Post
I'm curious if anyone knows:

What factors affect determined setback (I've heard a lot about femur length?)?
DNA and injury history.

A big part of comfort on the bike is learning how to trust your pedals. That may sound ridiculous, but you've spent your whole life trying not to fall, a moving pedal under your foot feels a lot like falling. Have you ever gotten to the bottom of a set of stairs and miscounted the steps so you try to put your weight on nothing? You very quickly find the next solid object to support yourself - your arms dart out to the sides to find the hand rails. The same thing happens on a bike. The pedals turn but the handlebars seem good and solid. When I'm fitting someone I often use the largest gear on the bike, not because they should ride around in that gear all the time, but because slowing the pedals kills off the panic response.

Until you can get your full weight onto the pedals, most of this balance stuff can't work.
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  #25  
Old 08-28-2019, 08:54 PM
truth truth is offline
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Originally Posted by Ti Designs View Post
DNA and injury history.

A big part of comfort on the bike is learning how to trust your pedals. That may sound ridiculous, but you've spent your whole life trying not to fall, a moving pedal under your foot feels a lot like falling. Have you ever gotten to the bottom of a set of stairs and miscounted the steps so you try to put your weight on nothing? You very quickly find the next solid object to support yourself - your arms dart out to the sides to find the hand rails. The same thing happens on a bike. The pedals turn but the handlebars seem good and solid. When I'm fitting someone I often use the largest gear on the bike, not because they should ride around in that gear all the time, but because slowing the pedals kills off the panic response.

Until you can get your full weight onto the pedals, most of this balance stuff can't work.
Thanks, that's very interesting.

Does that mean that riding in lower gears with higher cadence isn't going to help one get comfortable putting their full weight onto the pedal (and they''ll suffer from "poor fit" forever)?
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  #26  
Old 08-31-2019, 10:55 AM
MikeD MikeD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirk View Post
Cool - it sounds like you are in a good place. I'll bet that if you tried tthis method you'd end up in the same place.



dave

Dave, thanks for posting your thoughts on bike fitting and other things. Much appreciated.
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  #27  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:17 PM
dimitris77 dimitris77 is offline
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This was very useful! Thanks for posting
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  #28  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:01 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
I got a Retul fit and my fore/aft saddle position was pretty close to the KOPS position I had it set to. Retul doesn't use KOPS.
Retul uses knee to foot forward which is a horizontal measurement from the marker on the knee to the front marker on the foot. Their acceptable range (where the number on the screen is green) is +/- 1cm. Sounds a lot like KOPS to me.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:12 AM
plsnobugs plsnobugs is offline
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I like little tips like that to think about while riding.
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