Rock N Roll - Gold vs Extreme?

[11.4]

The Silca instructions assume a completely cleaned and dry chain, and it also leaves enough lubricant on the chain that you have to wipe off quite a bit.

I find these instructions inconsistent with some of the Friction Facts observations about lubricating chains. Specifically, if you completely clean a chain with solvent/ultrasound and then dry thoroughly so there's absolutely nothing on the chain, the chain undergoes significant wear before newly applied lubricant makes its way throughout the chain. To minimize this, one basically soaks the chain (and that's part of what makes soaking and waxing efficient) but it's an inefficient way to do it and doesn't solve the problem sufficiently. The best way, and the way Shimano also recommends, is simply to add lubricant to the grease on the chain and start riding. The existing lubricant penetrates everything because it's applied as part of assembling the chain.

On another point, one lubricant can work completely differently from another. One can create surface tension, viscosity, stiction, and other characteristics for any particular lube. As a result, how you use one lubricant is likely to be completely different from how you use another. Plus, one lubricant can be rich in volatile solvents that will gas off, so it involves using more lubricant initially because the solvent carries the lubricants and then gasses off.

[weiwentg]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

How does it spread the lubricant? Is the lube ending up on the pulleys, and thus getting 'applied' to the entire chain?
If NFS only needs 10 drops, then should any other thin lube also only need 10 drops to spread evenly?

Originally Posted by Mark McM

How do you distribute 8 - 12 drops equally amongst 100+ chain links?

I can hear what you're saying, but when I NFSed my chain according to the instructions, after soaking in Simple Green, it works. The chain does appear to be uniformly lubed. Perhaps the viscosity of the lube has something to do with it:

Originally Posted by OtayBW

... When a small bead appears, I backpedal rapidly for ~3-4 cranks. The stuff is so viscous that if you keep in contact with the chain, it will pull a thread along the entire chain - 2-3 times over ...

Actually, and I know this will horrify some people, but I used to use Boeshield T9 as my lube, and on a friend's advice, I actually lubed my chain NFS style, i.e. apply a few drops to the chain while backpeadling to distribute the lube. I can report that NFS lasts a lot longer than Boeshield did when applied this way.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

How does it spread the lubricant? Is the lube ending up on the pulleys, and thus getting 'applied' to the entire chain?
If NFS only needs 10 drops, then should any other thin lube also only need 10 drops to spread evenly?

Perhaps it works under homeopathic principles? The lube actually on the chain is so spread out as to be nearly non-existant, but the chain still benefits from the vital essence of the lube?

[11.4]

I posted this across the hall just now, but hopefully this will help the doubters.

This chain has 812 miles so far. All it gets is a 10-second wipe with a microfiber cloth after every ride, and 10-12 drops of NFS about once a week (typically 160 miles) or twice weekly if a 60-80 mile ride is added in. Occasional rain but I don't take this bike into downpours. Basic dusty paved roads. This lube works well. You can see it in the chain. And the drivetrain is virtually silent.

[oldguy00]

Fair enough, will have to give it another try.

That said, every place online I've looked, both in US and UK, is sold out.

[weiwentg]

Originally Posted by 11.4

... This lube works well. You can see it in the chain...

I agree. I can't necessarily see it in the chain, but when I rub a finger on the rollers after wiping the chain down, it always comes away with some lube no matter where I touch it. That indicates to me that, Mark McM's skepticism notwithstanding, the lube does clearly spread. Again, I don't know liquid dynamics, so I can't speculate how this happens.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by weiwentg

I agree. I can't necessarily see it in the chain, but when I rub a finger on the rollers after wiping the chain down, it always comes away with some lube no matter where I touch it. That indicates to me that, Mark McM's skepticism notwithstanding, the lube does clearly spread. Again, I don't know liquid dynamics, so I can't speculate how this happens.

This lubrication regimen basically relies on the concept of the "self-cleaning chain". In other word, that contaminants leave the chain as the lubricant is exhausted. Another school of thought is that lubrication added to the outside of the chain just remains on the outside, and that any contamination already inside the chain rollers and pins stays inside the chain. This is the school of thought that recommends removing the chain and thoroughly flushing it (or using an ultra-sonic cleaner), and then re-lubing it.

Solid (dry) chain lubes might be self cleaning - for example, contaminants might get embedded in a wax coating, and then leave the chain when the wax flakes off. But I find it hard to believe that viscous (liquid) chain lubes can do this.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

How does it spread the lubricant? Is the lube ending up on the pulleys, and thus getting 'applied' to the entire chain?
If NFS only needs 10 drops, then should any other thin lube also only need 10 drops to spread evenly?

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Perhaps it works under homeopathic principles? The lube actually on the chain is so spread out as to be nearly non-existant, but the chain still benefits from the vital essence of the lube?

Originally Posted by weiwentg

I agree. I can't necessarily see it in the chain, but when I rub a finger on the rollers after wiping the chain down, it always comes away with some lube no matter where I touch it. That indicates to me that, Mark McM's skepticism notwithstanding, the lube does clearly spread. Again, I don't know liquid dynamics, so I can't speculate how this happens.

Here's my take on how it may spread. I posted this once before a while back, but here it is again:

I'd say that the NFS is both a shear thinning and a thixotropic liquid meaning that it has relatively high viscosity (doesn't flow easily with probable high tackiness) initially, under static conditions. Under shear, such as when you're cranking on the chain, it becomes less viscous (i.e., shear thinning) and therefore it flows and spreads more easily. I suspect it's also thixotropic meaning that when the shear/pedaling is removed, the material returns to (recovers) its higher viscosity and tackiness under static conditions.

Can't say for sure because I haven't measured it, but I have dealt with materials like this and it seems similar. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[11.4]

Originally Posted by OtayBW

Here's my take on how it may spread. I posted this once before a while back, but here it is again:

I'd say that the NFS is both a shear thinning and a thixotropic liquid meaning that it has relatively high viscosity (doesn't flow easily with probable high tackiness) initially, under static conditions. Under shear, such as when you're cranking on the chain, it becomes less viscous (i.e., shear thinning) and therefore it flows and spreads more easily. I suspect it's also thixotropic meaning that when the shear/pedaling is removed, the material returns to (recovers) its higher viscosity and tackiness under static conditions.

Can't say for sure because I haven't measured it, but I have dealt with materials like this and it seems similar. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

That's a big part of it. This is typical of most quality lubricants. We worry about the resistance in a bottom bracket axle when the grease flows easily under shear. Same issue. Another phenomenon is that one can manage surface tensions such that the lubricant behaves one way on the surface and completely different underneath. Thus it spreads very easily and creates a film, just as we'd like a lubricant to do here, but without compromising the viscosity and lubricity of the lubricant itself. A side effect of this behavior is that the lubricant tends to be very efficient at floating out any contaminants (grit, water, or otherwise). This way you can do that quick microfiber wipe at the end of a ride and it'll pick up the grit very effectively. It's important to do the wipe because it gets accumulated grit out of the chain; if you don't grit still accumulates.

People like to use solvents to clean chains, but they're better at removing grease than removing grit. As most Tour mechanics will tell you, soapy water actually engages in some of the same behavior we're talking about here and lifts out the grit better. When I do come around to cleaning my chain, I use soapy water and a soft brush and a spray bottle with more soapy water to clean off the chain well. Then let it dry. Then the magic 12 drops. The first ride it may be a little noisy and I'll do another 12 drops in a couple days. After that, it's perfect.

[charlieclick]

That’s one hell of an explanation. And it makes sense, thanks 11.4

Originally Posted by 11.4

That's a big part of it. This is typical of most quality lubricants. We worry about the resistance in a bottom bracket axle when the grease flows easily under shear. Same issue. Another phenomenon is that one can manage surface tensions such that the lubricant behaves one way on the surface and completely different underneath. Thus it spreads very easily and creates a film, just as we'd like a lubricant to do here, but without compromising the viscosity and lubricity of the lubricant itself. A side effect of this behavior is that the lubricant tends to be very efficient at floating out any contaminants (grit, water, or otherwise). This way you can do that quick microfiber wipe at the end of a ride and it'll pick up the grit very effectively. It's important to do the wipe because it gets accumulated grit out of the chain; if you don't grit still accumulates.

People like to use solvents to clean chains, but they're better at removing grease than removing grit. As most Tour mechanics will tell you, soapy water actually engages in some of the same behavior we're talking about here and lifts out the grit better. When I do come around to cleaning my chain, I use soapy water and a soft brush and a spray bottle with more soapy water to clean off the chain well. Then let it dry. Then the magic 12 drops. The first ride it may be a little noisy and I'll do another 12 drops in a couple days. After that, it's perfect.

[joshatsilca]

The thing to remember about Friction Facts data is that it is a test of the lubricant, so every chain is lubricated by immersion to generate the number, which makes sense when you ask the question, is this a faster lube than this one.. However, it is not representative of customer experience where maybe the product doesn't fully penetrate without immersion, or heat or whatever.

We did study SILCA NFS pretty extensively with Jason and found that the 12 drop application was grossly insufficient on a clean chain and should only be used as a maintenance technique. While the chain will eventually show some surface lubricant after the 12-12-12 application method, there is nowhere near enough to penetrate each roller. We also tried every other roller and found it was also insufficient.. you HAVE to put a drop on each roller (on a clean dry chain) to achieve sufficient penetration not to cause chain damage and wear.

This study was much of the reason we worked with Luer Lok on the syringe tip of the Synergetic.. it gets you a much smaller droplet than the plastic cap can deliver, so you can put a drop per bushing, and not be so grossly over-lubricated.

Using our updated instructions for NFS (one drop per bushing), Adam at Zero Friction found NFS to be the best wet lube ever a few years back in terms of chain lube, and our Synergetic has now surpassed that. Interestingly is the cleaning performance of the lube, the larger NFS drops flush out more contaminants in the relubrication process (one per busing) than the tiny Synergetic drops.. so the Synergetic had immensely better wear performance in the clean or wet, took longer to recover from the sand/dirt blocks. We have retested this using larger drop sizing and found the recovery after contamination to be improved. Adam details this in his report on Synergetic at his site.

Here is the summary performance of the lubes he has tested:

[sparky33]

Originally Posted by oldguy00

Do you go by R&R's directions? They seem to recommend using quite a bit (then wiping down later)....

I do. Shake it up, apply a steady drip for a full chain rotation, spin it around for bit and then wipe, wipe, wipe. It cleans and lubes. R&R Gold is nice because it doesn't collect grime. Though more frequent applications are important - I use it up more quickly than other lubricants.

NFS was good too but smelled funky and collected dirt quickly.
Dumonde Tech is pretty good too.

[benb]

Whatever you do you better get it right... no effort is too high.

If you lose that 0.1W cause you don't get it right you might get dropped from the group ride, then you might not get that invite to join a team, miss out on your chance for cycling glory, and then you'll never get the girl/guy and your whole life will be ruined.

Or you get a chainring tattoo cause you used too much. You'll be laughed out of the cafe and never be able to drink coffee in spandex again.

"Don't overthink it". LOL this is cycling. It's not about the destination it's about overthinking everything along the way.

I buy whatever is convenient and have picked up almost everything mentioned here before when it showed up at the LBS. None of it has given me super powers and none of it has ruined my life or caused cars to hit me. It's all good.

[slowpoke]

Originally Posted by benb

Whatever you do you better get it right... no effort is too high.

If you lose that 0.1W cause you don't get it right you might get dropped from the group ride, then you might not get that invite to join a team, miss out on your chance for cycling glory, and then you'll never get the girl/guy and your whole life will be ruined.

For want of a drop, the low-friction was lost.
For want of the low-friction, the chain was lost.
For want of the chain, the bike was lost... 😂

[charlieclick]

I think it’s nice to have a clean chain that runs smoothly. Nothing to do with watts. I appreciate all the advice here. I’ve been using nfs with good results. Wiping and lubing seems to keep things clean and quiet. I’m interested in the rock n roll, though, so will give it a try soon. Plenty of wet weather here in the uk, which does it’s best to ruin drive trains.