Sram engineering + reliability strike again

[benb]

What's the wear on a 9? More wear = more maintenance = more chances for the mechanic to make a mistake when they've got 20 guys riding 20k km/yr or something in all conditions.

That's just the ridiculousness of it though, even the 50/34 compact is stupid low 99% of the time if you're 140-160lbs and you have a 400w FTP.

The 50 is stupid for me 99% of the time on my fast road bike (hence why I've never run one for an extended period.) I would only like it on days where I happened to climb one of the handful of multi-mile climbs in the northeastern US that average > 10% for miles on end. (Most of those are toll roads that you can only ride during hill climbs.)

You only see them use the 34/50 for the most epic of mountain climbs on the longest days in the longest tours, and even then it's only the guys who like to spin like crazy.

1X is stupid for these guys even if it has plenty of low and high range if it requires more swapping out of parts for different days. My guess is they will swap out more often than a recreational rider since they won't need the range on the flatter days and riding with the wide range cassette will be really annoying on those days since they'll not use 3-4 of the cogs and then still be stuck with huge jumps between the cogs.

[chiasticon]

failures during R&D happen. and R&D in bike racing happens. the only issue I see here is the team slagging the sponsors; that's weak and un-pro to me. you're paid to do a job. some of that pay comes from the sponsors. be nice to 'em. Aqua Sport aren't the highest profile team. so yeah, they get to be more of lab rats than other teams do. when you've barely got enough money to eat, don't sh*t in your own Cheerios.

someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)

[nickl]

Originally Posted by chiasticon

failures during R&D happen. and R&D in bike racing happens. the only issue I see here is the team slagging the sponsors; that's weak and un-pro to me. you're paid to do a job. some of that pay comes from the sponsors. be nice to 'em. Aqua Sport aren't the highest profile team. so yeah, they get to be more of lab rats than other teams do. when you've barely got enough money to eat, don't sh*t in your own Cheerios.

someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)

In this case, I am pleased to hear about equipment shortcomings from the pro riders, cycling journalists and other insiders. Keeps us regular folks from investing in problematic configurations. This is similar to the situation with Campy in the late 80s and early 90s when they were attempting to keep up with Shimano's then-new SIS systems.

[NHAero]

Two cents here from an old slow rider:
I have SRAM 1x11 on my FS29er and after over 2-1/2 years of regular riding I've dropped a chain twice. No chain keeper, but NW chainring and clutch derailleur. Shifting is very reliable. I just replaced the worn aluminum 42T large cog with an aftermarket 44T cog and the shifting in and out of that cog is slightly less smooth than with the stock cog.
I converted my CAAD10 for an experiment to 1x11, in this case Shimano 6800 shifters, Ultegra R8000 rear derailleur, and Ultegra 11-34 cassette. 40T NW chainring, I think it's a Wolftooth. It shifts fine, but not as nicely as the SRAM on the MTB, and I've been attributing that to considerably shorter chainstays on the road bike. And I could be completely wrong...

[benb]

Originally Posted by chiasticon

someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)

No the Belgian media has it right, there's nothing PRO about changing to a drastically new setup 1 week before the world championships.

If there was a weird thing with his combo they wouldn't have necessarily had a chance to figure it out in a week, and if there was some change in how he needed to ride/shift he wouldn't have had time to necessarily get that to the point where it was automatic.

A lot of this stuff is not really about SRAM quality.. it's about trying too may new things/combinations at the same time when your paycheck depends on the equipment just "disappearing".

[Joxster]

Originally Posted by ptourkin

42-9 is a bigger gear than 50-11. Just a minor quibble there. I don't doubt that the 9 can be causing some problems with the chain but gear inches wise, that analysis is off.

But when the drag on a smaller sprocket is a waste of watts (marginal gains and all that) and other teams are going bigger rings with bigger sprockets, there must be questions to ask. I did suspect that when the problems started they would have thrown the mechanic under the bus.

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by benb

No the Belgian media has it right, there's nothing PRO about changing to a drastically new setup 1 week before the world championships.

If there was a weird thing with his combo they wouldn't have necessarily had a chance to figure it out in a week, and if there was some change in how he needed to ride/shift he wouldn't have had time to necessarily get that to the point where it was automatic.

A lot of this stuff is not really about SRAM quality.. it's about trying too may new things/combinations at the same time when your paycheck depends on the equipment just "disappearing".

exactly my point. he defended the sponsor (actually sponsors; again, he changed frames too), because him and his team made the change, even though it wasn't the best time to do it. and while that decision wasn't exactly pro, defending the sponsors and taking the blame yourself is.

that doesn't 100% relate to Aqua Sport of course, given they're several months into racing their setups and still having issues. but the point is you gain little as a team or a professional by sh*tting all over your sponsors.

[ptourkin]

Originally Posted by Joxster

But when the drag on a smaller sprocket is a waste of watts (marginal gains and all that) and other teams are going bigger rings with bigger sprockets, there must be questions to ask. I did suspect that when the problems started they would have thrown the mechanic under the bus.

That was just an example. I don't know what chainring they are running - I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I just quoted 42 as that as how a lot of 1X are being sold. I suspect they are going bigger.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by ptourkin

That was just an example. I don't know what chainring they are running - I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I just quoted 42 as that as how a lot of 1X are being sold. I suspect they are going bigger.

Friction Facts did some testing on drive losses between typical large and small chainrings (53 & 39) different rear sprocket sizes for their study on the best gear selection for efficiency. Bike Radar had an article on their data and findings. The published data suggests that the 1x system, with its smaller chainring and larger cross-chaining angles, may be losing up to 2 - 3 Watts in some gear combinations (the worst would be the 42x9). The losses will be smaller in other gear combinations, but even still, the extra losses will probably not be compensated for by the lower weight of a 1x system, except maybe up the steepest climbs (but if bikes are already at the minimum weight allowed by the rules, they may not be able to harvest any gains from weight savings). There may be some aero gains with a 1x system, but I don't think this has ever been quantified.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Friction Facts did some testing on drive losses between typical large and small chainrings (53 & 39) different rear sprocket sizes for their study on the best gear selection for efficiency. Bike Radar had an article on their data and findings. The published data suggests that the 1x system, with its smaller chainring and larger cross-chaining angles, may be losing up to 2 - 3 Watts in some gear combinations (the worst would be the 42x9). The losses will be smaller in other gear combinations, but even still, the extra losses will probably not be compensated for by the lower weight of a 1x system, except maybe up the steepest climbs (but if bikes are already at the minimum weight allowed by the rules, they may not be able to harvest any gains from weight savings). There may be some aero gains with a 1x system, but I don't think this has ever been quantified.

Considering these 1by is also disc, no 'aero' advantage overall, I suspect.
Marketing, IMHO...I don't see that 1by For The Road answers any question, solves and problem. IMHO, of course..

[Burnette]

3T goes double:

https://bikerumor.com/2018/07/04/3t-...opular-demand/

[Gummee]

Originally Posted by Burnette

3T goes double:

https://bikerumor.com/2018/07/04/3t-...opular-demand/

That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM

M

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Gummee

That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM

M

1X still works for some consumers as you have read from users on this board. Whether or not it was right for a race tea, over specific terrain is another question. I think the answer to that question was no.

[simonov]

Originally Posted by Gummee

That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM

M

I'm sure all my buddies with piles of dead first gen Di2 derailleurs would disagree. SRAM has certainly dropped the ball in spectacular fashion with some of their products. So has Shimano, though probably to a lesser extent. But they make plenty of killer products that stand up to abuse.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Gummee

That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM

M

Certainly was my experience with early SRAM stuff, but the eTap I've been using through all sorts of crap for nigh on a year now has been bullet-proof thus far.