How to train to get longer & lower on the bike?

[echelon_john]

Ok I’ll try again, although if I was being flippant, so was Eddy.

In terms of actual adjustment & adaptation, focus on lower first, THEN longer. Go lower with the same stem length or even drop stem length 10-30mm since going lower will effectively move your bars further away given HTA.

Moving from a 3cm drop to a 6-8cm drop (assuming you can do this with a stem/spacer change) will give you the chance to let your back, hips & shoulders adjust. Ride (lots) like that for a month, then think about going longer with the stem. One thing at a time.

You could also experiment for free by riding (lots) 100% in the drops for a few weeks. Nosing your saddle down may help you commit.

JC

Originally Posted by Turkle

Well yes, thank you for the flippant remark, but I was hoping for something a little more systematic than that.

[Turkle]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

So, if it is really about group rides, long/low is not really a solution you need to be pursuing, unless you are truly in a faster-backwards position right now or are unable to get good efficient muscle engagement in your current position.

I sort of am in a "faster backwards" position right now as I've been recovering from multiple injuries over the past few years! So since I'm already pursuing a very serious training / rehab regimen, I'm looking for ideas on how to get longer and lower while still putting out full power.

It's always fun to go faster!

Appreciate the ideas folks, a lot to chew on here, and it sounds like a good place to start is a good bike fitting to see how my body has changed after all these broken bones.

[lavi]

All the position stuff aside, you may just need to do more fast group rides.

My racing/training days are OVER. However, what I remember is how hard certain rides where. Showing up to team rides when the hitters showed was not always my favorite. However, showing up every week helped. After getting annihilated for a few weeks, I would improve. I don't think I thought one single time about my position on the bike. I was too busy trying not to puke. Being a bigger rider at 6'2", getting a draft off lots of guys is a fool's errand.

So, keep showing up. Keep getting dropped. Once your top end fitness improves, getting dropped will happen less and less. If you have the juice in your legs, the rest may not matter that much.

IMO, you'll get more further along more quickly with hard group rides than faffing with position AND THEN still having to up your fitness. Even with a longer/lower position, chasing on fast group rides will still hurt. You'll be even more out of breath being all crumpled and bent over. Without the fitness, not much else matters. I could be wrong, but whatever.

[Turkle]

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from on that, Lavi. I'm 6'0", 205 pounds, so I'm a bit in the same boat. The funny thing is I'm just fine on the hills, I can climb like a champ! When I'm getting shelled, it's on the flats, which is what leads me to believe that a more aero position might be helpful.

(Of course, in addition to getting stronger legs! Haha)

Anyway, the group rides are only one consideration - the others are the strong headwinds and the lack of traffic which I think would make a flatter position desirable!

Appreciate all the ideas, folks.

[YesNdeed]

I'm basically echoing what lavi is saying, but to me getting dropped is inherent to getting faster. I know this doesn't respond to your specific question, but I'd say you're riding with the right group. If you keep showing up and getting it handed to you, you'll be keeping up with the faster riders before you know it. And maybe even seeking out fasterer rides.

Shorter, higher intensity rides during the week can help a lot. And doing an "opener" the day before your group ride can also help. I liked to do hill repeats for 30 minutes or so making hard, but short efforts. If I hadn't ridden the day before or even 2 or 3 days before a fast group ride, I'd be going in stale. Do the right openers, and you'll go in hot.

Finally, give yourself a break. You were off the bike for 3 months, and your body is still healing a broken a leg.

[weisan]

See if you can get your handlebar to a happy medium height where you are relatively comfortable on both the hood and the drop. Again, not optimized for either but able to sustain your position on both settings and also maintain pedaling efficiency. You don't necessarily have to be long or low, once your hands are in the drops, you will see a difference in aerodynamics and wind resistance, maybe that's just enough to stay with the pack. Lastly, don't underestimate the amount of energy and wattage you will save by drafting, ride smart and don't be embarrassed to take up shelter behind the stronger riders. I am not as strong as I used to be 20 years ago but I am a lot smarter now and able to stay with faster groups.

[jimcav]

Originally Posted by Turkle

I can basically ride on this all day with no neck and shoulder pain. Much lower, and my neck really starts to feel it, I think.

Those of you who have trained to get lower and longer on the bike, I'd love your thoughts on how to achieve this goal without permanently screwing up my neck! Thank you for reading and any advice you can offer.

IF you figure the neck issue out, let me know what worked in case it might help me!

I can get low, at least from a low back and hip perspective, but my neck simply won't take it. I have some injuries there (particularly whiplash from being rear-ended that caused a syrinx and disc herniation). I simply can't extend my neck to see the road when I get "low" up front. I can ride the drops for about as long as it takes for most descents near me, which are generally a few hundred yards max. 1/2 mile+ descents are on the hoods.
Before it got bad, a lighter helmet and doing lots of the "chin-tuck" exercises as part of my regimen helped, but eventually nothing did.
If you already have problems with your neck, I'd suggest getting it checked out, as forcing low up front could make it worse. It does for me, which is why my return to roads after 5+ years is on new-to-me bikes with much taller headtubes.

If the limiter isn't the neck, I'd agree with the prior advice to ride, build core fitness, stretch out your posterior chain (calves, hamstrings etc.).

However, I could do a 4-min plank in 2019, but couldn't ride my old 56cm bike even 10 minutes on the hoods--I didn't ride roads from 1/2017 until this year because I had to get the bars up at least 6cm from where they used to be. It took getting an old bike with quill stem that I could easily figure that out.

good luck getting faster, and possibly lower.

[reuben]

Without any bona fides whatsoever, I'll second planks and yoga. In my case, yin yoga, which you won't normally find. Yang (active) yoga is what you'll find 99% of the time. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I lump planks into a vague group of bodyweight exercises. You can add lunges, burpees, Russian twists, Turkish get-ups, all sorts of "animal" movements, and other stuff. Maybe some light upper body weights for balance, and maybe some foam rolling for additional stretching/relaxation, ala yin yoga, or even yang yoga.

It will take time for them to bear fruit, most likely over a span of months. If you're sporting some gray hair like me it may take even longer, but as with many things in life, consistency is the key, whether it be cycling, running, swimming, crossword puzzles, stretching/yoga, or anything else.

You'll have to figure out what works for you, but maybe you have a friend or local trainer that can help.

Good luck.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by Turkle

Those of you who have trained to get lower and longer on the bike, I'd love your thoughts on how to achieve this goal without permanently screwing up my neck! Thank you for reading and any advice you can offer.

Reading your post, I wonder if you need to adjust the bike right away, or first work on your ability to adopt a lower position and see if that makes the difference you need. Going away from a drop that suits your neck may not be as useful (and sustainable) as working on your muscles and mobility to allow you to really sink into the drops when needed, and ride with good elbow bend when you're on the hoods. Lower overall, but still able to choose comfort when you want to. I don't know about you but for years I had to remind myself that Roger de Vlaeminck and Fabian Cancellara didn't spend entire races in the low positions I see in pictures.

All that aside, I've never felt better on the bike than when I was doing yoga weekly.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Philster

Very interesting. Do actually move your saddle to suit the ride or just find a position in the middle?

My (now largely retired) 'race' bike had about 1cm less setback, and about 1cm more drop and reach.

My main road bike has a setup more orientated to comfort. I still like to ride fast, but I'll give up 0.5-1kph for my back not to hurt.

[Tandem Rider]

I think Lavi is absolutely correct. You need to get stronger. Crunching the numbers, to raise your speed from 38 kph to 40 kph requires a power increase in the neighborhood of 50 watts. You cannot "aero" a 50 watt gain on a road bike, I don't care what the advertisers claim.

Back in the 80s there was a study done at the OTC shortly before I got there so lots of chatter going on, the long and short of it was that the guys were nearly or as powerful in their earlier "less efficient" positions than they were in their "new and improved" positions even after time to adapt (I think one even lost power). You have found a position that allows you to ride comfortably. You are recovering from injuries, give yourself time, lots of patience is needed. Work on whole body strength, lots of advice upthread, it doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you follow through. Ride the fast rides when you can, do intervals when you can't do the fast ride, plan on LOTS of recovery rides and it will all fall into place.

[wyatt_]

Originally Posted by Waldo62

Yoga.

Came here to say exactly this. Getting a yoga class in once a week and repeating a few poses throughout the week really opened me up and helped me have more fun and less pain on long fast rides. Could just do planks, I guess, but yoga is lot less boring?

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by echelon_john

Ride lots.

Originally Posted by mlc

Ride lots may be flippant, but in my experience it's true. I started stretching semi-regularly and it made a huge difference as well. Loosening up the hammies got me in a much more aggressive position quite quickly with no back pain at all

Riding lots usually ends up doing the reverse of getting you longer and lower, which is kind of what MLC pointed out without realising it.

Flexibility is the key to being longer and lower, and you can achieve that through core strength and stretching.

Riding more usually exacerbates muscle imbalances caused by riding, the same imbalances that create tight hamstrings and sore backs.

YMMV, and far be it from me - the guy who advocates riding more - saying this, but riding more in search of achieving a more aggressive position is bad advice.

[bigbill]

I'm tall and not very flexible, but given my leg length and top tube, I end up with quite a bit of saddle-to-bar drop. I have made some progress on the trainer. I have an old road bike on my KICKR and use Zwift when I ride indoors. Zwift has pacer rides with posted W/Kg targets. I find a relatively flat course with a pacer, usually 1.8-2.3 W/Kg, and ride tempo. Once warmed up and loose, I get in the drops and stay there. I train my body to produce wattage at a certain RPM range in the low position. I'll do it for at least an hour. At first, my neck complained loudly, but that is improving. I listen to podcasts.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Turkle

And finally, most embarrassingly, I'm getting dropped by faster riders on the flats, and I think a lot of it is due to my position on the bike.

Hate to say it but that's a fact of life. Unless you are world tour caliber rider there is ALWAYS people faster than you and you simply cannot keep up. On the flats even a good cat 3 rider might be able to draft in a group of cat 1/2/pro's. it just depends on the attracts and small climbs that might shed us mere mortals off the back.

Stick to it. The one good thing about riding with faster people is that if you are dedicated and try as hard as you can to stay with them then you become better too.