Nutty new SRAM AXS derailleur tech

[CAAD]

Leap in price. $600 cassette and $150 chain yeesh.

[lorenbike]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

it's interesting, sure - but a "legit leap forward" ??

c'mon? it's a thing that hangs off the back of the bike that moves the chain up and down the cassette. eliminating the need for a RD would be a leap, a new design is a small step IMO

Singlespeed!

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by CAAD

Leap in price. $600 cassette and $150 chain yeesh.

Yikes....How much is the derailleur?

And does it mean a sram specific, proprietary frame?

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by CAAD

Leap in price. $600 cassette and $150 chain yeesh.

If those are indeed the prices, the consumer should protest. No one should buy a $600 cassette, that's literally ridiculous. Vote with your checkbook. Sram should get the memo that a $600 consumable item is not realistic.

[dustyrider]

A leap will come when the parts doing the shifting are no longer built around cable actuation. Why do the blips have to be pushed by a thumb? You could put those buttons anywhere. Does the rear derailleur need to be positioned at the bottom? Couldn’t it be placed above the seat stay?

I’m fairly confident we’ll see a fully integrated frame soon with proprietary parts that are marketed as advanced features. There will be a battery in the bike to power all the dingly dangly e-parts and the 20,000 dollar bicycle will be common instead of the 10,000 dollar bicycle.

Somewhere around that time subscriptions for fully functioning advanced features will happen. You want your seat to auto raise when you shift for the upcoming hill that is being recorded on your integrated gps head unit, subscription. You want your tire psi to display on the head unit, subscription. Something like the car industry is dabbling in right now, oh you want the rear heated seats to work in your Audi, subscription. You want hands free lane change cruise control, subscription. You want to start your car with your cellphone, subscription.

Advancement!

[bicycletricycle]

I am under the impression that 1x mountain cassettes have a pretty short life. like 1 thousand miles or something. Is that true?

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Derailleurs are cantilevered away from the frame in a location where they are prone to either getting directly whacked (as can happen if the bike gets layed down), or getting yanked around in case something snags in the drivetrain (such as getting a stick caught in the derailleur). Derailleur hangers often acted as a buffer, whose bending or breaking could save the frame from overload forces. If the derailleur is mounted directly to the dropout, right at the axle, then any excess forces on the derailleur will be transmitted directly to the dropout. Do these derailleurs have some kind of break-away joint, to prevent frame damage? Or is the derailleur so rigid that they can transmit damage forces directly to the frame?

Right.. I don't feel like the article really did a good job hand waving away why these aren't problems.

Nothing in the shape of the cage is going to prevent a stick from getting caught through the chain into the spokes of the wheel like has always happened.

Maybe the guys writing the article ride in a place where this is less common. They mention the rider kicking the derailleur as if that's a real threat. Pretty sure I have never kicked the rear derailleur the entire time I've been riding bikes. On MTB I have certainly hit parts of my body on almost every other part of the bike and hurt myself, but never the rear derailleur. Meanwhile I couldn't even count the # of times I've gotten a stick lodged into the chain + cage + spokes. Luckily I've only broken the hanger once (road) and bent them a bunch.

I guess really the question is what breaks if they think their design is so robust it's not going to break.

Frankly broken derailleur hanger to me is a less severe issue than a bunch of broken spokes or a broken frame. First off the hanger is cheap, second off I know I can repair a bike with a broken hanger on the side of the road/trail just enough to be able to limp back home. With spokes or the frame probably not.

With MTB the idea any advance in derailleurs other than more resistance to damage is laughable. The gains are just too marginal. It really seems like the shifting doesn't matter unless it breaks and stops you.

I do like the thought experiment dustyrider mentions. Why not consider really different designs. I think I know the answer why a derailleur mounted up high wouldn't be as effective though.. it's probably not going to be great trying to deflect the chain on the tensioned/pulling side. If they are going to all this trouble though it does seem like a completely new position for the derailleur could be really interesting. If you could mount it to the chainstay/seatstay like a disc caliper you could really protect a lot of it.

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by dustyrider

A leap will come when the parts doing the shifting are no longer built around cable actuation. Why do the blips have to be pushed by a thumb? You could put those buttons anywhere. Does the rear derailleur need to be positioned at the bottom? Couldn’t it be placed above the seat stay?

I’m fairly confident we’ll see a fully integrated frame soon with proprietary parts that are marketed as advanced features. There will be a battery in the bike to power all the dingly dangly e-parts and the 20,000 dollar bicycle will be common instead of the 10,000 dollar bicycle.

Somewhere around that time subscriptions for fully functioning advanced features will happen. You want your seat to auto raise when you shift for the upcoming hill that is being recorded on your integrated gps head unit, subscription. You want your tire psi to display on the head unit, subscription. Something like the car industry is dabbling in right now, oh you want the rear heated seats to work in your Audi, subscription. You want hands free lane change cruise control, subscription. You want to start your car with your cellphone, subscription.

Advancement!

When this becomes the only option to ride a bike I will move on to alternative forms of exercise.

[charliedid]

I bet an enormous percentage of the people on this forum could survive the rest of their riding lives with the bike/bikes they already own barring unforeseen circumstances such as theft or damage due to crashing etc.

Consumables and replacement parts for the current gen. bikes will not go away in our lifetimes.

I could of course be completely wrong.

[windsurfer]

So now the quality of your shifting is dependant on the ability of the frame manufacturer to provide a frame with dropouts that are correct thickness and perfectly aligned? Pretty tall order for an industry that can't even make bottom brackets that are round and correctly sized.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by charliedid

I bet an enormous percentage of the people on this forum could survive the rest of their riding lives with the bike/bikes they already own barring unforeseen circumstances such as theft or damage due to crashing etc.

Consumables and replacement parts for the current gen. bikes will not go away in our lifetimes.

I could of course be completely wrong.

Clean39t would probably go up in a puff of smoke, a la Nosferatu, if he couldn’t feed his new bike thirst

As for SRAM mtb cassettes, they’re pretty robust if they’re paired with the genuinely fantastic SRAM mtb chains. While not the fastest independent testing has confirmed their wear-resistance.

$600 for a cassette is indeed nuts. Shimano xtr is $500 MSRP but they’re much more flexible on discounting

[glepore]

Originally Posted by Old School

........because Sram bought Quarq, and was too lazy to change the bolt pattern on the powermeter.

But, TBH, the 8 bolt is pretty nice, and I'm sure makes for a more accurate powermeter (extrapolating left side data from the right side of the spindle)

Wrong. Quarq's were 3 bolt for years before they went to 8. Supposedly the 8 bolt is more consistent for a pm, but I never noticed an issue with 3.

As to whether its "a great leap forward" maybe it starts to realize the full potential of an electronic groupset. The fact that the derailleur knows where the ramps are in relation to itself and can time the shift points allows for full load shifts, and that's a true advance in the mtb world. A the least, the new system shows tons of thought into some real improvements. Its not really all applicable to the road, maybe.

[CAAD]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

I am under the impression that 1x mountain cassettes have a pretty short life. like 1 thousand miles or something. Is that true?

When SRAM released their XX1 group back in the day they came into the shop and did a product training/introduction for the employees. Their claim is that the cassettes last much longer because the sprockets are larger. I have to agree, my XO1 10-42 cassette has lasted me a few seasons, multiple 6hr events in all kinds of conditions, and I bought it used! Sill no excuse for a $600 cassette.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by glepore

As to whether its "a great leap forward" maybe it starts to realize the full potential of an electronic groupset. The fact that the derailleur knows where the ramps are in relation to itself and can time the shift points allows for full load shifts, and that's a true advance in the mtb world.

Where did you get the idea that the derailleur knows where the ramps are? It is not mentioned in any of the articles about this new derailleur, and it is unlikely to actually do it. Such a system would require some kind of sensor interaction between cassette and derailleur, which would be a whole new derailleur subsystem, so you'd think they'd mention it.

Originally Posted by glepore

A the least, the new system shows tons of thought into some real improvements. Its not really all applicable to the road, maybe.

The more I read the articles, the less I'm seeing any great leap forward. What exactly does this derailleur do that other derailleurs don't? Sure, integrating the derailleur mount directly into the dropout means that you don't have to set the derailleur limits and B pivot, but on other derailleurs this is a one time adjustment that only takes a few minutes. And just like any other indexed derailleur, this new derailleur had an indexing adjustment. I'm not convinced about the ability to avoid damage by swinging backwards. Other derailleurs have some ability to swing backward as well. But when a stick gets caught in the spokes, the derailleur will keep being pulled around the wheel until either the derailleur or dropout breaks, and/or until the derailleur hits the seat stay. Only on this new design, there's the potential to damage the dropout as well.

[thermalattorney]

I got to shift through the gears of an XX group last night in a workstand setting. The controller pod is definitely an improvement and a much better starting point for new users. For those with existing AXS controllers, spending $45 on aftermarket paddles is just as good a solution.

When performing multiple downshifts, those only happen at the certain ramped locations on the cassette and in a very deliberate manner that can be slightly removed from the initial button press. The thing is, with both existing mechanical and AXS systems it's entirely possible to downshift shift too fast and get things jammed up. Think about coming into a really steep tech climb at the end of a descent where one needs to drop ~6 gears in a hurry. If anything, this will eliminate that possibility at the expense of shift speed when downshifting 2-3 gears.

As someone who has recently bent a RD hanger, the whole "stand on your derailleur" move is a heck of party trick.

I see the elimination of the b-tension adjustment as a welcome one. 12sp SRAM and Shimano MTB RDs are *extremely* sensitive to b-tension. Personally I'd rather go back to 11sp, but it's nice that this fancy new stuff won't suffer the same issues.