How to train to get longer & lower on the bike?

[Kyle h]

Originally Posted by jimmy-moots

Riding lots usually ends up doing the reverse of getting you longer and lower, which is kind of what MLC pointed out without realising it.

Flexibility is the key to being longer and lower, and you can achieve that through core strength and stretching.

Riding more usually exacerbates muscle imbalances caused by riding, the same imbalances that create tight hamstrings and sore backs.

YMMV, and far be it from me - the guy who advocates riding more - saying this, but riding more in search of achieving a more aggressive position is bad advice.

I will second this. I think you have two things you can work on. Honestly, I would start with a fitter who is also a PT. You should follow VeloFitPT on Instragram for some insight into how someone like him works.

I think continuing to show up, riding hard and even if you get dropped finishing the ride is going to help your fitness. Adding simple trainer programs like TrainerRoad for week day intervals will also be a good start. I will say, for me, adding a strength training routine has been as beneficial as doing loads of hours on the bike but at less overuse risk and allowing me more free time.

Secondly, positions are achieved through body work, not riding. This is strengthening and mobility stuff. Yoga classes are a good addition if you don’t feel comfortable trying to tackle a routine on your own. But you also want make sure you are addressing any issues you might not know you have. I, for example, broke my L foot at work a few years back and when I recently got a fit the fitter was able to identify a lack of ROM at the top of the pedal stroke on my L vs R which was causing me to almost stall out at TDC every revolution. Resolution was to add 5min or so a few times a week to my routine to address this.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by echelon_john

Ride lots.

Whether you like it or not, this is IT in a nutshell.

Aero is over-rated. Any road position on the bike is fine.

You want to get fast-ride those group rides and hang until you get dropped.

Get a racing license and use it, because only racing improves the breed.

Without knowing your age, you could be asking for more than your body can deliver. If you're 50+ trying to hang with 20-40 year olds, you may be fighting a battle you can't win. You can't fight age.

[Permanent socks]

If you are climbing with this same group and not getting dropped you are making enough power to hold the group on the flats, especially at 6' 205lbs.

It sounds like you're not very efficient on the flats. Meaning, you're wasting watts needlessly.
Get better at drafting, hone your wheel sucking skills. Be better at gauging your efforts on the front so you don't get dropped when the paceline surges past you after a hard pull.

Loner and lower is great IF you can make power in the position.

Stretching without strengthening is pointless. To maintain a better range of motion you need to gain strength at full range.

Goodmornings, and some hip mobility training will help anyone develop a stronger posterior chain.

If you can try some eccentric nordics to stretch and strengthen your hamstrings as well.

I wouldn't touch you're bike fit until is feels like there is too much stack and not enough reach. Otherwise you'll develop compensation injuries.... neck, upper back, shoulder discomfort or pain.

[Nomadmax]

I have a similar saddle to bar drop ratio, about 3.5cm. I still ride with the fast riders and occasionally fall off the pace at the front. It isn't because of not enough bar drop or not being aero. It's more likely because I'm 63 and apparently can't grind 20-30 somethings into dust anymore.

I have a ride all day set up that I don't mess with. I'm retired and STILL don't have time for yoga, stretching or whatever else extra it takes to ride a bike with more aero ergos. Not worth it. You want bang for the buck in keeping up? Intervals/specificity training. I've ridden some younger, more aero, riders off my wheel on one of my old Merckxs or Guerciottis because of it.

[Suckleyi]

Originally Posted by Turkle

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from on that, Lavi. I'm 6'0", 205 pounds, so I'm a bit in the same boat. The funny thing is I'm just fine on the hills, I can climb like a champ! When I'm getting shelled, it's on the flats, which is what leads me to believe that a more aero position might be helpful.

From this I would think you need to do more speed work. Keep at the group rides and the speed will come. Do what you can and let go when you have to, but keep at it.

You could also add a sprint day once a week when you're recovered and fresh.

Of course, getting more aero will help, but if you're fine on the climbs with your group, it's probably more a conditioning for speed issue.

[wallymann]

• hamstring / glute / lumbar flexibility
• core strength / stability

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Whether you like it or not, this is IT in a nutshell.

Aero is over-rated. Any road position on the bike is fine.

You want to get fast-ride those group rides and hang until you get dropped.

Get a racing license and use it, because only racing improves the breed.

Without knowing your age, you could be asking for more than your body can deliver. If you're 50+ trying to hang with 20-40 year olds, you may be fighting a battle you can't win. You can't fight age.

I've already said it earlier in this thread but whether or not you think aero is overrated, being flexible is not.

Riding more if you have issues with flexibility just exacerbates those issues.

The two are not mutually independent. You can get a race license and stretch.

And I said it earlier. I'm the guy who advocates actually riding a bike instead of just talking about it. I love racing. I'm out there training in the rain. Lots of k's, lots of hours. I could go on but I won't.

But the chest beating about riding more when we are talking about mobility really is a bit disingenuous.

[jimcav]

your post mentions neck pain. IF your neck is simply "deconditioned" from being off the bike, that is one thing. However, if you've been riding a bit, and your neck hurts, that isn't due to low back or core fitness.

Please don't ignore it. I tried to push through my neck pain, and all it did was make it worse, much worse--to the point I had to abandon road riding and sold bikes.

5 long years later I can ride road bikes again, but only being more upright, and I can easily put myself into significant interferes-with-sleep neck pain with left thumb numbness if I decided to go ride a std 56 cm road bike with a 14m HT for even 30 minutes.

[adub]

Slam that stem!

[giordana93]

while there is some good advice here, be careful, especially regarding fit changes as you come back from an injury

ride more is good advice because by training you will develop the muscles needed to go faster/get more efficient and without that base fitness you are inviting injury and will not be able to sustain a more aggressive position anyway

bike fit evolves with fitness; an injury compromises "ideal" position. As you get stronger, it may be time to re-evaluate your fit/position, but not willy nilly. If you are climbing well, you don't want to sacrifice that for speeds on the flat, and if you are otherwise riding without pain, I would be hesitant to start playing with setback and saddle tilt (especially the latter--keep it flat mostly) both of which are also tied to saddle height. a saddle that is too high will inhibit the ability to go low just like tight hamstrings will--same cause: you cannot rotate at the hips and lay down a nice flat back and engage your glutes. that's all I will say for fit for now because I really don't think you should start with fit. at any rate, learn what all these numbers mean (saddle setback/height, bar reach/drop, even cleat position) and write down your current position before you touch anything

keep going on the fast rides. we all know too many people who can tool along at a moderate pace all day but are shot out the back once it goes over that. it's simple: they lack speed work on the fitness side, and don't know how to manage their effort on the mental side: Ride smart. That means short pulls (10-30 seconds) if the pace is manageable or just sitting at the back for as long as possible if the pace is too high. A good group will understand and would/should rather have you safe at the back than in the line head down unable to see the wheel in front of you. Plus the hotshots won't get antsy behind you waiting their turn to surge (bad, disrupts group). Don't surge when it is your turn at front--be steady--likewise, do not slow down too much after your turn. mr antsy pants behind you may well be surging just as you slow down so you have to sprint to get back on. If you continue to get dropped, analyze why it happened. Sure they were faster, but did you make a tactical mistake (besides too long/hard a pull: being behind the smallest guy [no wind break] or have the fastest guy on your wheel, or not realizing the wind is from the left and you need to be to the right to be in a good draft--use your ears to listen for quiet air--riding too tall a gear, etc)

if you want to do some individual speed work, it will help. A set or two of 90 second to several minute intervals with sufficient rest in between once or twice a week can do wonders, with the beauty being these can be "short" rides of 90 minutes or less. Just don't forget to balance these with easier recovery or zone 2 rides. Rest/active recovery is super important, especially for the, ahem, mature, cyclist

Remember you are coming back from an injury. It takes years to develop the musculature and good pedal stroke to motor on the flats. spring has barely sprung. keep piling on your base miles, add some speed work (with the group or solo). keep a training log/diary that might also include bike position data. yoga/core/stretching help mightily, especially as we age. But there is no substitute for miles. and being mindful about breathing, pedal stroke etc.

[weisan]

Good post, giordana pal.

[benb]

Clean 39T had some excellent advice about pack riding that really should be paid attention to. Recreational packs are atrocious for energy wasting compared to racers. Not being the guy that kicks up the pace when you get to the front, stays on the front too long, etc.. is a huge factor.

How much you want to get into trying to get long and low should depend on your age and goals. Are you racing competitively? Is that very very important?

Working with a PT in the last 5 years after so many years of riding as long/low as I could I really kind of came around to thinking my priorities were out of wack since I am no longer interested in competitive riding.

A lot of the stuff a PT is going to do is going to be aimed at improving your overall posture. Improved overall posture doesn't necessarily translate to being comfortable with longer and lower.

Stuff like an overly stretched out lower back, tight abs, tight hip flexors, overly stretched out shoulders, tight pecs, upper cross syndrome, etc.. all make it seem like you can get longer/lower but it's not overall good for you.

I had a bad shoulder injury from all this and the PT was straight up honest if I wanted my shoulder working well again it wasn't going to be as easy to get low.

Basically if you're 20s and your competitive period is starting the answer here should be different than if you're in your 40s and it's winding down.

[Turkle]

Given the overall "lecture this wayward boy" tone of many posts here, I think a lot of you are overthinking this.

I'm just looking for some training ideas to help me get longer and lower on the bike. I don't think it's going to make me the fastest rider in the world. I think it will help me out on the flats on windy days.

Anyway, those of you that have suggested exercises and some bike fit ideas have been very helpful, I'm already putting some of these ideas into practice on the trainer and we'll see how it goes. Baby steps!

[benb]

Since you're specifically talking about your neck maybe check what your upper back posture looks like.

If your hips/glutes/hamstrings are not real flexible a lot of us will roll our upper back and shoulders forward to reach the lower bars.

This causes the upper spine to curve in a way that would cause you to be looking down at the ground.

Once that happens you actually have to bend your neck further up to see up the road, which puts more strain on your neck.

Do you wear glasses? That exacerbates this issue IME, getting good cycling glasses if you have prescription will allow you to use extended field of view through the glasses to keep your head lower while still being able to see through the glasses. I had this issue, most of my normal glasses over the years had smaller lenses which meant I had to turn/raise my head more.

But like others said unless you're sitting up 1 foot higher than anyone else in the pack more aero is probably not going to matter. Drafting correctly saves way more energy than anything else. Look for anything going wrong there.

I've almost always been one of the tallest ones in any pack I've been in, I'm usually conscious of how high my head is sticking up above everyone else. If you're really aware of that you can try to get low. Make sure you're not using a helmet that's particularly draggy, that's very low hanging aero fruit that has a ton of bang for the buck with no need to do any annoying exercise or work with a fitter.

[callmeishmael]

It might be worth establishing exactly what your limiters are. How flexible are your hamstrings? Can you comfortably hold a plank for a minute? Can you get into a proper pigeon pose? Can you... you get the idea.

Once you've established the limiters, pick (only) 3-4 exercises that address them, and do 2 of them for 5 minutes (each) every day until you're very good at them. It will likely take a number of weeks if not months.

This is what I was told in martial arts many years ago, and it proved sound advice.