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  #16  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:39 AM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berserk87 View Post
It's hard to tell about the whole story from one source only.

It is clear that USADA wants examples to show the public that it is doing what it can to combat doping. Say what you want about this, but my guess is that it's a reaction to amateur racers' complaints to USADA about their local cheaters. Folks like to complain, and complaining about dopers is easy to do (and probably justified).

So it's no wonder that USADA is putting out these "in your face" stories about busting dopers. They believe they are providing their customers with what the customers want. USADA is pandering to its base, so to speak.
Or, another way to look at is that they busting amateurs is a way of addressing a problem at its start.

If only professionals are tested, it sends the message that amateurs can dope without impunity. Does anyone believe that an amateur who dopes will immediately stop doping when they reach the pro ranks? Stopping doping means stopping doping culture. And that means creating a culture of non-doping when racers are young.

And what's wrong with giving the public what it wants? Amateur racing fees generate more revenue than professional fees (if only because there are more amateur racers), so why shouldn't that money be put to serving amateur's requests?
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  #17  
Old 02-12-2019, 11:12 AM
JStonebarger JStonebarger is offline
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I'm always a little uncomfortable with the "ridiculous amateur/masters racer" rationale. First because it mocks people for not being pros, second because it implies that cheating would be more understandable/reasonable/worth it(?) if money was at stake. In the age of kleptocracy I guess it's no surprise, but still, it is disappointing.
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  #18  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:21 PM
pasadena pasadena is offline
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I know these facts-

I know she got popped for androgenic-anabolic steroids.
i.e. SYNTHETIC MALE TESTOSTERONE

I know you don't accidentally get anabolic roids in your system by eating a sandwich.

usada doesn't randomly test amateurs. They test based on information, usually whistleblowers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
Really? Do you know anything about the person? I certainly don't. Not before reading the link, and certainly not after.

These USADA press releases are ridiculous - boiler-plate with no specifics..

It feels very unfair and sensationalist.



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  #19  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:36 PM
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josephr josephr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasadena View Post
I know these facts-

I know she got popped for androgenic-anabolic steroids.
i.e. SYNTHETIC MALE TESTOSTERONE

I know you don't accidentally get anabolic roids in your system by eating a sandwich.

usada doesn't randomly test amateurs. They test based on information, usually whistleblowers.

actually for this race it was a routine pre-race urine sample that got her busted. they tested everybody. I live here in birmingham but don't know her other than by reputation as a pretty strong rider. Its not even that well known of a local race. One more reason just to ride your own ride and enjoy the good times.
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  #20  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:45 PM
nooneline nooneline is offline
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Interesting - another person from the same place, with the same last name, was tested and busted at the same race.

https://www.usada.org/david-pate-rec...ping-sanction/
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  #21  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:08 PM
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Hellgate Hellgate is offline
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The family that dopes together stays together?
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  #22  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:37 PM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephr View Post
actually for this race it was a routine pre-race urine sample that got her busted. they tested everybody. I live here in birmingham but don't know her other than by reputation as a pretty strong rider. Its not even that well known of a local race. One more reason just to ride your own ride and enjoy the good times.
The test everybody? Testing isn't cheap - it can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars per sample (depending on what and how many things are tested for). I wonder how much it costs to test everybody?
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:48 PM
LegendRider LegendRider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JStonebarger View Post
I'm always a little uncomfortable with the "ridiculous amateur/masters racer" rationale. First because it mocks people for not being pros, second because it implies that cheating would be more understandable/reasonable/worth it(?) if money was at stake. In the age of kleptocracy I guess it's no surprise, but still, it is disappointing.
I agree. People always ask "why the hell would someone dope to win an industrial park crit?" Have you been around cyclists much?!?! The answer is quite obvious.
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  #24  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:52 PM
GregL GregL is online now
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Originally Posted by LegendRider View Post
I agree. People always ask "why the hell would someone dope to win an industrial park crit?" Have you been around cyclists much?!?! The answer is quite obvious.
It's not just cyclists. People cheat in nearly all amateur sports. Some segment of the human population cheats, be it on their taxes, their significant others, games, or sports. Doping in amateur cycling is just another example.

Greg
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  #25  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:58 PM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendRider View Post
I agree. People always ask "why the hell would someone dope to win an industrial park crit?" Have you been around cyclists much?!?! The answer is quite obvious.
Anybody who goes through great personal sacrifices to be competitive at sporting events (at any level) already has a different set of values and motivations than most people. So why should be we expect them to apply the same set of value judgments as most other people in regard to doping?

I've seen the egos at play in sports competitions, even at the amateur levels, so I'm not that surprised when I hear about amateur doping.
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  #26  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:06 PM
Alaska Mike Alaska Mike is online now
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I think both of them got popped because someone dropped a dime on them. If they truly did take samples from everyone before the race, the process is to usually dump the vast majority and hit a sampling of the main field and podium finishers. Interesting how they both got tagged here.

Both of them are Cat 5s, and his results have been far less than stellar. Hers, while in small fields, were much better and since this was the LAMBRA Championships, a podium might have triggered the test anyway. Before the results were amended by USAC, I think she had a 2nd in the RR and a 3rd in the Crit.

This in no way excuses her positive, but...
If it was for testosterone, her positive could have been contamination from the husband's usage. With creams and other topical applications, it's pretty easy for it to move from person to person. Read Andrew Tinlin's book, The Doper Next Door: My Strange and Scandalous Year on Performance-Enhancing Drugs for a take on amateur doping. He talks about cross-contamination affecting his wife and infant child. Yeah, just so you can pedal a bike faster in your fancy underwear.
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:45 PM
HenryA HenryA is offline
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I think these people deserve to be ridiculed. Its good for them, good for the sport and good for society.

And yes, the stakes are very low. A medal and maybe $50. She probably beat 7 or 8 other women by cheating. It is precisely the low stakes that make doing something like this ridiculous and worth criticizing.

There are sometimes criminal aspects to doping. Some of the substances are illegal. Its really hard to figure out why anyone would do this. Why they would subject themselves and their family to this indignity when caught.

I hope the upcoming junior racers see this and reject it forever in their lives. I think that part alone is reason for testing and penalties.
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  #28  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:48 PM
vincenz vincenz is offline
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Life must be so empty to need to do this at the amateur level.
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  #29  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:23 PM
Alaska Mike Alaska Mike is online now
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The assumption is being made that it was done for athletic performance and a handful of trinkets. It very well could be true.

However, a few amateur racers aren't responsible for the boom of "youth regeneration" clinics that has grown over the last 10-15 years. Doctors there will prescribe just about anything you'd would have found in Lance's refrigerator to "combat the unfair effects of aging", to include HgH and testosterone. I've even heard of them pushing EPO if you know the right password. Better living through pharmaceuticals.

Where are the hotbeds of this? The Southeast and the Southwest, which, strangely enough, are where many of these sanctions come from. You don't have to get your PEDs from a pharmacia in Mexico or a dodgy online source anymore. You can go legit. Do a big training block and then stop by a clinic to get tested. Chances are, with a few complaints of fatigue, you could probably walk away with the "good stuff". It may cost a bunch, but you'll be able to justify your state championship medal to yourself because "you have a prescription from a real doctor" and "it's a medical necessity".

I'm all for testing at every level. Catch them early before they become a problem. Make an example of them. There will always be cases like Carl Grove's of unintentional contamination, but rarely is it for hardcore stuff like we've been seeing the last decade in amateur races. Those guys that got popped in Miami for EPO? Yeah, you're not going to sell me that it was a bad batch of Hammer Nutrition supplements. You signed on the dotted line that you understood that doping was against the rules before you ever pinned on a number. Sorry.

I can't touch any of it because of my security clearance. Even CBD, which I would much prefer to opioids, is off the table for me- and I have a history of back, hip, and knee problems. I will not risk it. I processed more than a couple people out of the military for thinking they could beat the system. Now that I'm a civilian contractor and could be let go tomorrow if there was a whiff of drug use, I'm even more careful. Not worth it, even if they're really, really nice socks up for the next prime.

Those nasty Masters dopers started somewhere, and I like that USAC is finally getting the message out that it isn't OK at any level. I get my teeth kicked in by naturally gifted athletes all of the time, so there's no need for the "enhanced" athletes to pile on. I get it, I suck at this sport.
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  #30  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:27 PM
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berserk87 berserk87 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McM View Post
Or, another way to look at is that they busting amateurs is a way of addressing a problem at its start.

If only professionals are tested, it sends the message that amateurs can dope without impunity. Does anyone believe that an amateur who dopes will immediately stop doping when they reach the pro ranks? Stopping doping means stopping doping culture. And that means creating a culture of non-doping when racers are young.

And what's wrong with giving the public what it wants? Amateur racing fees generate more revenue than professional fees (if only because there are more amateur racers), so why shouldn't that money be put to serving amateur's requests?
I don't disagree with the concept that USADA is giving the public what it wants. It's smart business.

As far as addressing a problem where it starts, that seems a lost argument when reading about a 50-year old woman.

I'm not sure how many amateur cyclists dope their way through to the pros. If I recall, most pros are folks that had some innate talent anyway, and ended up doping once they got there.

Seems to me that the more memorable stories pushed by USADA involve these Masters types. The guys I suspect of juicing in my area fit this mold. Riders that are staring down the barrel of their own mortality and can't accept the effects of aging on their race results.

Last edited by berserk87; 02-12-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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