Kirk Frameworks

[mhespenheide]

Those remind me of Bruce Gordon's work, and I mean that as a high compliment.

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

"Idle hands make fretful minds" - Shelley Shepard Gray

I've run into a bit of a material supply issue related to Covid and I don't sit around very well...so the set of lugs and BB I had sitting in a drawer waiting to be completely reshaped to match the image in my head came out and I had some fun putting the imagined shape into metal.

Photographing raw lugs is always problematic - they need context and tubes in them to make the most sense. But these will give a rough idea of the shape I've had bouncing around for a while now.

So many lug shapes of old look like the doilies my grandmother knit. Nice in their own way but not my thing. I like long simple lines with a bit of asymmetry to make the eye and mind wander around the part.

Now I just need a bike to build these into! If these blow up your skirt let me know and we'll use them as the basis for your new ride.

dave

Wow, that is beautiful Dave. While symmetry is platonically pleasant to the eye (like most bikes), a dash of asymmetry is what makes it interesting. I recall seeing some Black Cat bilaminate lugs that were kinda weird and absolutely beautiful in an art deco way.

Are there any structural implications to asymmetry in lugs? Will one side be stressed more than the other is a lug is cut on a bias?

This blows wind up my skirt for sure! I can see these tubes and lugs painted glossy white with gold lining and decals and some 700x48mm tires - all deeply soaked in mud .

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Wow, that is beautiful Dave. While symmetry is platonically pleasant to the eye (like most bikes), a dash of asymmetry is what makes it interesting. I recall seeing some Black Cat bilaminate lugs that were kinda weird and absolutely beautiful in an art deco way.

[B]Are there any structural implications to asymmetry in lugs? Will one side be stressed more than the other is a lug is cut on a bias? [/B]

This blows wind up my skirt for sure! I can see these tubes and lugs painted glossy white with gold lining and decals and some 700x48mm tires - all deeply soaked in mud .

Good question. The short answer is 'no'....and long answer is 'maybe'.

The very small relief I made is so structurally insignificant as to not be there. So the answer in this case is no. On the other hand one could cut the lugs so much that there could be issues. So it's not to say that the lug shape doesn't matter but it really only matters when you take it to extremes.....and these lugs are far from extreme.

It's important to remember that the real core strength with a lugged joint comes from the two tubes meeting each other inside and having the filler flow between the them. This is what holds the tubes together. The lug adds surface area for the filler to attach to and a safety margin and its not the primary structure.

Make sense?

dave

[d_douglas]

Thanks for that explanation. Yes, I am no framebuilder (understatement of my life) but I imagined that the lug design is not where the strength is derived from. When seeing this impossibly delicate pointed lugs, one must assume that theyre there mostly for their beauty and elegance, while the fitting of the tube into the lug socket is where the strength comes from.

Those are just right for being ornate. Those ones that Ive seen of old timey Bayliss frames seem more like artwork than rideable bikes, cool as they are.

So, do you just pack those lugs away and one day some lug-lover will ask for something unusual and you coyly say ' why yes, I have something that might interest you' as you reach into your desk drawer??? That would be fun fo both you and the client when the stars align.

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Good question. The short answer is 'no'....and long answer is 'maybe'.

The very small relief I made is so structurally insignificant as to not be there. So the answer in this case is no. On the other hand one could cut the lugs so much that there could be issues. So it's not to say that the lug shape doesn't matter but it really only matters when you take it to extremes.....and these lugs are far from extreme.

It's important to remember that the real core strength with a lugged joint comes from the two tubes meeting each other inside and having the filler flow between the them. This is what holds the tubes together. The lug adds surface area for the filler to attach to and a safety margin and its not the primary structure.

Make sense?

dave

[pdonk]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

This blows wind up my skirt for sure! I can see these tubes and lugs painted glossy white with gold lining and decals and some 700x48mm tires - all deeply soaked in mud .

Another bike for us to add to a wished share list. Please purchase and ride for 5-6 years so I can then buy from you .

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Thanks for that explanation. Yes, I am no framebuilder (understatement of my life) but I imagined that the lug design is not where the strength is derived from. When seeing this impossibly delicate pointed lugs, one must assume that theyre there mostly for their beauty and elegance, while the fitting of the tube into the lug socket is where the strength comes from.

Those are just right for being ornate. Those ones that Ive seen of old timey Bayliss frames seem more like artwork than rideable bikes, cool as they are.

So, do you just pack those lugs away and one day some lug-lover will ask for something unusual and you coyly say ' why yes, I have something that might interest you' as you reach into your desk drawer??? That would be fun fo both you and the client when the stars align.

I suppose so. I've shared photos of them here and on Instagram and wondered if they might catch someone's eye enough for them to get in touch. I might send photos and an offer out to my email list and if that doesn't generate interest I'll put them in a drawer and wait for the right moment.....of if I get antsy I might build them into something 'stock' sized and offer it at a discount.

We'll see.

dave

[osbk67]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

I suppose so. I've shared photos of them here and on Instagram and wondered if they might catch someone's eye enough for them to get in touch. I might send photos and an offer out to my email list and if that doesn't generate interest I'll put them in a drawer and wait for the right moment.....of if I get antsy I might build them into something 'stock' sized and offer it at a discount.

We'll see.

dave

Surely there's little more stock than a 59x58cm MRB with Terraplane stays. Red or orange are very generic colours. Predictable I know, just thought I'd get that in early.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by osbk67

Surely there's little more stock than a 59x58cm MRB with Terraplane stays. Red or orange are very generic colours. Predictable I know, just thought I'd get that in early.

We can do just that for you and use these fun lugs. We can make that happen.

dave

[prototoast]

Are the lugs stainless/could they be built into an Onesto?

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Are the lugs stainless/could they be built into an Onesto?

Thanks for the question - no they aren't stainless. I originally wanted to go stainless on these but the blanks used as a starting point aren't available in stainless.

dave

[572cv]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Thanks for the question - no they aren't stainless. I originally wanted to go stainless on these but the blanks used as a starting point aren't available in stainless.

dave

So, could they be used anyway with Onesto tubing? Paint the lugs and leave the rest Onesto? That might be a different approach. Note that I dropped you a line the other day regarding an Onesto.....

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by 572cv

So, could they be used anyway with Onesto tubing? Paint the lugs and leave the rest Onesto? That might be a different approach. Note that I dropped you a line the other day regarding an Onesto.....

Yes....that could work.

I don't know that I got your note....did I respond?


dave

[572cv]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Yes....that could work.

I don't know that I got your note....did I respond?


dave

I re-sent the email. Hopefully it goes through this time.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by 572cv

I re-sent the email. Hopefully it goes through this time.

Got it - replied.

dave

[PaMtbRider]

Originally Posted by 572cv

So, could they be used anyway with Onesto tubing? Paint the lugs and leave the rest Onesto? That might be a different approach. Note that I dropped you a line the other day regarding an Onesto.....

Dave, could you elaborate on this a little. I recall a previous conversation where you didn't recommend painting non stainless lugs for use on an Onesto.