Lightweight Frame Tubing and "Planing"

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by false_Aest

If you're not going to do this yourself don't tell the builder what to build with. Tell the builder what you're hoping for and have faith.

Telling a builder what to do is like having a seamstress tell a luthier what wood to choose for her uncle's cousin's friend's sister's guitar.

I hear ya on that. I certainly wouldn't dream of telling the builder what to do. I'm more just curious and want to be educated on what might get me to the ride that I'm looking for in the frame.

[mhespenheide]

I don't understand the strong responses from some posters about asking a framebuilder to build with certain materials. To extend an analogy, if I'm working with a professional tailor, I'm certainly going to ask him or her to work with either heavy wool, light wool, cotton, etc. I may even ask for either an "Italian" fit or an "English" fit.

I'm certainly not going to call up Richard Sachs and specify a tubeset. But if I'm the OP, I might well call up Jeff Lyon and say that I'm interested in this type of bike; I've heard about this kind of ride, and what would he think about working with thin wall tubing.

[disspence]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

If energy stored in the frame can drive more power to the rear wheel, then energy stored in the cranks should do it even more efficiently! I just installed this cranks on my bike, and I can't wait to reap the benefits of 15+% more power!

Hilarious!

[El Chaba]

There's a tradition-especially in the US- of the customer turning the specifications on a custom bike into an exercise in OCD....specifying every part down to the last nut. Telling the builder what gauge of tubing, what lugs, etc. I would imagine is just the next level....

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

I'm certainly not going to call up Richard Sachs and specify a tubeset. But if I'm the OP, I might well call up Jeff Lyon and say that I'm interested in this type of bike; I've heard about this kind of ride, and what would he think about working with thin wall tubing.

This ^^ is what I'm getting at. Just trying to hear some opinions....

[false_Aest]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

I don't understand the strong responses from some posters about asking a framebuilder to build with certain materials.

Go solicit a client that thinks they know more than you do about your job then try to work for them (not with).

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by false_Aest

Go solicit a client that thinks they know more than you do about your job then try to work for them (not with).

I do it more often that I care to, thank you.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by false_Aest

I was always under the impression that tubing diameter (and shape) contributed more to stiffness than wall thickness. But in your 3rd paragraph seems to slightly contradict that -- maybe I'm misreading?

Yes, tubing diameter makes a big contribution to frame stiffness. One of my framebuilding class students that is an engineer calculated that a 1 1/8th" top tube with a wall thickness of .7/.4/.7mm had approximately the same stiffness as a 1" top tube with .9/.6/.9mm walls. What I was trying to say is that I can tell the difference in ride feel between a frame that has a 1" top tube with 7/4/7 walls compared to either one that also has a 1" top tube with 9/6/9 walls or one with 1 1/8th" top tube with 7/4/7 wall thickness.

Originally Posted by false_Aest

To your idea of a "lively" bike, that seems to be a bit different than what Jan is talking about. Your description makes me think of a bell or tuning fork. If a bell is made well it will sound beautiful, if it's not done right it's horrible and shrill. Seems to be a similar when building a bike ... it's gotta be tuned and a 1-size fits all doesn't work for some folks.

My personal observation of riding a bicycle with a frame built with 7/4/7 standard tubing is that it has a feel that is different than riding frames with heavier walls or bigger diameters. To me it is noticeable and I very much prefer it. It isn't about the weight savings but the ride quality. I am 5'8" and light and can pedal smoothly so obviously what works best for me may not apply to bigger more powerful riders with a different kind of pedal stroke.

The other point I wanted to emphasize is that there probably aren't many cyclists that have actually ridden a 7/4/7 frame with a 1" top tube. Not many have been made. I have not only ridden the several I've built for myself but others I have made for customers. However that hasn't stopped a whole lot of people having strong opinions just from reading.

[Ken Robb]

I guess my stock 60cm Legend ti "planed". It had a slightly springy feel but never felt wobbly or too "flexy". Maybe some riders would have been happier with a stock Serotta than the one where they had a lot of input regarding custom features and design?

To some extent I think people often tend to choose sports equipment that is stiffer than they need. I have seen it in tennis rackets, golf clubs and skiis. They think if a pro plays a stiff shaft they should too but their swing speed isn't fast enough to benefit from it and they would gain distance if they used softer shafts that could add a little "snap" to their swing.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by false_Aest

Go solicit a client that thinks they know more than you do about your job then try to work for them (not with).

Maybe its just me, but I'd expect that creating bespoke products would be a collaboration between client and provider. The client knows more than the provider about what qualities the product is expected to have, and the provider knows more than the client about how to achieve those qualities. Just as bad as a client telling a provider how to do their work, is the provider telling the client what they want. As such, it would behoove the client to know at least a little about the work, to make sure the provider is achieving what they want, just as much as it would behoove the provider to understand how the client will be interacting with the product. In both cases, there is nothing wrong with the one side lending some guidance to the other, if they think the creation of the product isn't heading the right direction.

[moobikes]

Here is a response from Mike Kone on the Classic Rendezvous list about lightweight bicycle tubing. He is the guy behind Boulder Bicycles and for a time the revived Rene Herse brand.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From Mike Kone:

We play around constantly with light gauge tubes on bikes we design here.
A few observations in no particular order. And remember, these are just
our thoughts and experiences, and others (especially builders) may have
different thoughts or observations that may be equally or more valid.

1) Some folks just can't notice what the frame tubing is. Others can .
The crazy thing is that how a bike "feels" may be dependent on the bike (s)
you've been riding before. Its all about the rider getting in sync with
the flex of the frame. But many riders really prefer the lighter tubes.

2) If a frame is either way to stiff or way to flexy for some riders, they
just know it doesn't seem to work, but they can't tell why! And sometimes
a really stiff frame may feel great to rider, and a really flexy one works
great too and one in the middle just is wrong. I have no idea why.

3) I think there is a strong "mental" element to frame flex. Like hearing
some of the crazy things that audiophiles claim to hear (no, lets not go
into that, wrong forum). I swear there is a placebo effect with frame
tubing. I've tricked myself.

4) Oversize light tubes I believe transmit road shock differently. For
really skinny tires long we used to ride, the oversize tubes felt great and
more planted and that is why they took off in the early 1990's. When you
go to a 28 or 30mm tire, the skinny tube bikes start working really well.
Less than 25mm and its kinda harsh with a typical Columbus SL/531 frame.

5) With light tubes, shimmy is an issue. Especially on rando frames.
Contributing factors to shimmy are weight far back, a low trail geometry,
handlebars that are relatively high that get the weight back. And finally,
some riders have a natural "shake" frequency that invites a shimmy. That
is why some riders on a give bike may have issues, and then lots of other
riders will never have a problem. Headset choice and even grease can
impact the natural ocillation of the bike so can change shimmy likelihood.

6) Non-racers tend to benefit more from light tubes as they tend to flex
the frame less naturally.

7) For many light riders, especially women, the bike's they've tried have
probably all been too stiff.

8) There is never a reason to go lighter than skinny 8/5/8 on a downtube.
I suppose for a 90lb women it could make sense as the exception. But its
harder to discern a down tube being stiffer than it is a top tube - the top
tube flexes like crazy in torsion and of the main tubes has the most
profound effect on the feel of the frame.

9) Light tubes can feel less "planted" - on initiation of a turn, the very
light tube bikes wiggle a bit. For many folks, its not an issue. But a
frame a tad stouter than the "lightest" may give a bit more of a planted
feeling. Especially true with light oversize frames.

10) Optimal tube choice is very rider and frame size specific. We NEVER
use a 7/4/7 skinny top tube on a top tube that is over 57.5cm cc.

I know that a bit of this may turn folks off from the light tubes, but that
is not my intent. Many folks love the really light tubing including myself
on some bikes I have. But I also love my old Cinelli (I think it has a
Reynolds 8/5/8 top tube).

One more thing - we don't use the Kesai forkblades much. For one thing,
they have not passed the EN standard and therefore Waterford won't use them
on our Boulder Bicycles. I really don't think its an issue in practice,
though, as blade failure is so darn unlikely. But in my mind, maybe its
the placebo effect, I've always felt that bikes with the Continental oval
instead of the Imperial oval like the Kesai blades feel more "planted" when
I stand and sprint (or climb a hill). Interestingly, Rene Herse on some of
his race bikes and on some go-fast rando bikes actually used round blades.
And on his race/road sport bikes, when he used Imperial oval blades he
tended to use really stout blades. He might have been concerned about this
issue as well. But for a rando bike where one is sitting and spinning most
of the time, I can see the appeal of the comfy Kesai blades. We've used
them on some Rene Herse bikes.

Mike Kone in Boulder CO USA

[false_Aest]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Maybe its just me, but I'd expect that creating bespoke products would be a collaboration between client and provider. The client knows more than the provider about what qualities the product is expected to have, and the provider knows more than the client about how to achieve those qualities. Just as bad as a client telling a provider how to do their work, is the provider telling the client what they want. As such, it would behoove the client to know at least a little about the work, to make sure the provider is achieving what they want, just as much as it would behoove the provider to understand how the client will be interacting with the product. In both cases, there is nothing wrong with the one side lending some guidance to the other, if they think the creation of the product isn't heading the right direction.

Mark, I think you're right. There is a collaborative aspect to working with any (good) client.

[FlashUNC]

It's a give and take. I remember getting a stem for my Della Santa from Eric at Winter, I admittedly gave him some bad ideas I was tossing around and he steered me 100% in the right direction.

A good builder will save you from your own bad choices is you listen.

But other than general characteristics, man, I wouldn't go in and specify tubesets.

[adampaiva]

It doesn't need to be so black and white. To dictate to the builder that I know what my tubing should be would be a bit much and obnoxious. But now that I have and really like this skinny light tubing thing, I would want my next custom bike to also have these same characteristics and if the builder was offended by my saying that I really enjoy my L'Avecaise and I am pretty confident that a main factor of what I like so much about this bike is this tubing spec, well then I've gone to the wrong builder. But I think if I do get another custom bike (and I would want to replicate the ride characteristics of my L'A if I do), I would specifically be shopping at builders that build in this niche of the bike world. I think it's perfectly acceptable and not rude to expect to be able to give some design input like that, but yes if I went to the wrong place like if I went to Spooky and asked for a planing bike with a 1" 747 top tube then I shouldn't be offended when he says no get lost.

[bicipunk]

Originally Posted by moobikes

Here is a response from Mike Kone on the Classic Rendezvous list about lightweight bicycle tubing. He is the guy behind Boulder Bicycles and for a time the revived Rene Herse brand.

That's a super helpful quote from a super knowledgeable person. Thanks Moobikes!