Know the rules The Paceline Forum Builder's Spotlight


Go Back   The Paceline Forum > Bike Fit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-18-2020, 02:01 AM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Help with opening up my Hip Angle

Help with a bike fit questions, please.

Not enough knee extension and too much hip flexion.

Need to open up my hip angle?

Whats the best way to do this?

Currently using 165mm cranks
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bike Fit Extention.jpg (76.5 KB, 170 views)
File Type: jpg Bike Fit Flexion.jpg (76.6 KB, 170 views)
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!

Last edited by m_sasso; 11-10-2020 at 02:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-18-2020, 08:01 PM
John H. John H. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,106
angles

Are these pedaling photos? Or static?
It looks like you are not dropping your heel at the bottom of the stroke (which should be easy with too low of a saddle height).
Also- It looks like some of your landmarks are not in the correct spot- throwing off the angles.

It looks like you are sitting too far back. I am not sure if saddle needs to be forward- maybe not. More lie stem needs to be longer so that you "extend" further forward.
And you need to figure out how to get you head down. It sticks up too much.

Last edited by John H.; 10-18-2020 at 08:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-18-2020, 10:35 PM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Hello John, thanks much for the reply.

The pictures are dynamic, taken from video incremented forward until I am at approximately TDC and BDC.

The only landmarks that appear to be off from my perspective are the wrist/forearm marks and these are not a concern to me currently, hip, knee and ankle angles are my concern. I am giving up to much torque and power with my knee and hip so tight, they need to be opened up at TDC. Few people can generate any kind of torque at these angles and I am defiantly not one of them.

Which marks do you feel are off?

The noise of my saddle is about as close, or as far forward I as can legally have it to 5cm from the BB, which is the current UCI legal limit forward.

Possible options would be to go to a snub noise saddle, and/or raising my saddle up slightly which would give me the ability to come forward slightly with the saddle, opening up my hip angle.

My elbow angle is less than 90 degrees now, further forward would, open up my shoulders and elbow joint, however this would lower my upper torso, tightening up my hip angle and not what needs to happen currently. Opening up those angles/joints defiantly would help my aero, but that can come after straightening out the hip, knee and ankle.

Again, dropping my chin would help lower my head/aero but not my current concern.
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-19-2020, 11:09 AM
John H. John H. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,106
Tt

Your ankle landmarks are too high- This makes the angle show less extension at the bottom of the stroke.

If you are at 5cm- You should try a different saddle. Specialized Power or a tt specific saddle- These tend to be "cheaters"- what I mean by this is that the saddle can be at 5cm, but rider position is quite a bit further forward than you are riding now.
Desiring to sit square in your saddle could be part of the problem- Look at guys with fast portions here-https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/giro-d-italia-2020/stage-14/results/
They tend to ride on the forward position rather than square in the saddle.

You elbow angle is less than 90 degrees- But you are carrying the weight in the saddle. You want to be further forward AND longer. So elbow angle may not change. You would just be more able to extend your torso forward.

Not concerned about your head position? Head popping up like that is super slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_sasso View Post
Hello John, thanks much for the reply.

The pictures are dynamic, taken from video incremented forward until I am at approximately TDC and BDC.

The only landmarks that appear to be off from my perspective are the wrist/forearm marks and these are not a concern to me currently, hip, knee and ankle angles are my concern. I am giving up to much torque and power with my knee and hip so tight, they need to be opened up at TDC. Few people can generate any kind of torque at these angles and I am defiantly not one of them.

Which marks do you feel are off?

The noise of my saddle is about as close, or as far forward I as can legally have it to 5cm from the BB, which is the current UCI legal limit forward.

Possible options would be to go to a snub noise saddle, and/or raising my saddle up slightly which would give me the ability to come forward slightly with the saddle, opening up my hip angle.

My elbow angle is less than 90 degrees now, further forward would, open up my shoulders and elbow joint, however this would lower my upper torso, tightening up my hip angle and not what needs to happen currently. Opening up those angles/joints defiantly would help my aero, but that can come after straightening out the hip, knee and ankle.

Again, dropping my chin would help lower my head/aero but not my current concern.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-19-2020, 11:58 AM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by John H. View Post
Your ankle landmarks are too high- This makes the angle show less extension at the bottom of the stroke.

If you are at 5cm- You should try a different saddle. Specialized Power or a tt specific saddle- These tend to be "cheaters"- what I mean by this is that the saddle can be at 5cm, but rider position is quite a bit further forward than you are riding now.
Desiring to sit square in your saddle could be part of the problem- Look at guys with fast portions here-https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/giro-d-italia-2020/stage-14/results/
They tend to ride on the forward position rather than square in the saddle.

You elbow angle is less than 90 degrees- But you are carrying the weight in the saddle. You want to be further forward AND longer. So elbow angle may not change. You would just be more able to extend your torso forward.

Not concerned about your head position? Head popping up like that is super slow.
Ankle pivot landmarks should be at the malleolus, so I am going to strongly disagree with your placement suggestion, however let me know your further reasoning otherwise, please.

Quote:
"ANKLE https://www.bikefitadviser.com/blog/...oint-landmarks

We'll address the easiest landmark to find first. The center of motion for the ankle coincides with a very easy landmark to palpate -- the lateral malleolus. The lateral malleolus is the prominent bump on the outside of your ankle. Generally this bony structure stands out quite prominently and so finding the center point of it is a simple task. We can place our marker on the center of this prominence to locate the center of rotation of the ankle. "
From this video on opening up the hip angle notice where the ankle landmark is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skQ_kNhSuK8

And another on hip angle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skQ_kNhSuK8

A portion of what you are seeing as my head popping up is how far forward the helmet is rotated/sitting on my head, I have padded the front head band area of the helmet to get the helmet to sit further rotated clockwise on my head and get the tail down. Also the posted pictures depict sighting forward, where we know much of the time spent to maximize aero efficiency and speed is sighting/looking downward and only occasionally lifting our heads, scanning forward to see where we are hoping to travel. Again, I currently considere the head position as a peripheral issue and this could be addressed once my core hip knee relationship is optimized.

Raised my saddle and moved it forward. Also test with a longer stem and I will post some further pictures after I have given the revised position a try.

In addition I reread the UCI rules and technical clarifications, competitors are allowed one fit exemption, meaning the noise of my saddle can be moved forward up to the vertical line passing through the centre of the bottom bracket spindle, as long as the distance from the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle to the end of my aero bars does not exceed 75 cm.

Thanks, again John for your suggestions.
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!

Last edited by m_sasso; 10-20-2020 at 06:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-20-2020, 12:59 PM
chow834 chow834 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: SGP
Posts: 31
Not an expert here but would like to chime in. I agree that a snub nose saddle and moving the saddle up & forward should help. Slightly shorter cranks might help if you are able to get them.


With regards to the UCI limit, there is a waiver for the 5cm behind BB rule in article 1.3.013 : The peak of the saddle can be moved forward until the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider. - hence you could get away with this if you clear your position with the commissaires before an event.

Last edited by chow834; 10-20-2020 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-22-2020, 01:37 PM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Moved my saddle forward 3cm and up 3.5cm. Went from an 80mm to 120mm stem. And moved my head into position for anyone that wants to concentrate on the peripherals.

The longer stem helped with a flatter back, more stretched out and farther forward on the bike, ultimately I am thinking to really get my hips rotated around I am going to need to go with a frame with a steeper seat tube angle or raise my bars considerably and get thinner.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fit 2 Flexion.jpg (94.0 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg Fit 2 Extention.jpg (92.6 KB, 88 views)
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!

Last edited by m_sasso; 10-31-2020 at 03:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:13 AM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Getting closer to where I need to be. Moved my saddle forward 1.25cm and up 1cm. Also went to a 110cm, 82 degree stem and angled my extensions up a few degrees.

Next need to add some 25 to 50mm risers to my extensions and search for some narrower and larger drop base bars.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fit 3 Flexion.jpg (97.4 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Fit 3 Extention.jpg (97.5 KB, 55 views)
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!

Last edited by m_sasso; 10-31-2020 at 03:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-31-2020, 10:39 AM
ultraman6970 ultraman6970 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,679
Dumb question, what do you mean by open your hips? open your hips so the belly and the position gets lower???

Cool velodrome you have there...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-31-2020, 02:35 PM
m_sasso's Avatar
m_sasso m_sasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
Dumb question, what do you mean by open your hips? open your hips so the belly and the position gets lower???

Cool velodrome you have there...
Ultraman, hip angle is defined as the angle formed between the torso and upper leg, my thighs were at my chest previously at the top of my pedal stroke. The angle at my hips was too "closed" at the top of my pedal stroke and too "closed" between my upper and lower leg at the bottom of my pedal stroke.

Biomechanics says muscles, not that I have any, ability to generate torque across joints is optimized when joints are at less acute "opened" angles. There are limits, however reducing or "opening" the joint angle allows for the ability to increase movement speed, cadence, with the ability to increase torque, more power.

Moving the saddle up and forward forces you to rotate your pelvis forward and opens up the your hip angle. However, the UCI has limits as to how close the saddle can be to/over the bottom bracket. This is also why modern, real, non recreational track frames possess steep seat post angles and low saddle set back. My BMC 02 Track Machine is more or less a recreational/rental track frame at 73.5 degrees, but it is what I have. The black BMC 01 Track Machine is a completely different animal. "Real" modern track frames are very expensive, specialized, engineered go fast tools.

Yes, the Burnaby velodrome is a great facility, been almost living there, 14,000+ laps since mid July.
__________________
Marc Sasso
Not apart of the resin revolution!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.