OT: The Facebook Papers

[vespasianus]

To play the Devil's advocate, Facebook is a company - a public company and they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make money. Nothing they are doing is illegal. And how are they worse than Fox News?

You can make the argument that Facebook is fine. People are not.

And I don't have a Facebook account or instagram or anything like that.

[marciero]

Originally Posted by verbs4us

A fallacy in the Facebook playbook, I think, is a trust that the truth will out and an open and non-mediated conversation will arrive at the truth.

You're giving them way too much credit. By all accounts, there was never any such consideration of truth in any FB playbook. Rather, what we've seen is the predictable and logical effect of an intentional strategy that exploits the unique potential of the internet for behavior modification with the sole goal of increasing engagement, whatever the consequences. That's not just their business model but it is baked into their culture, and hence, will take more than modifying a few algorithms to change. This part is often overlooked in the conversation about personal data and tracking. But it comes down to modifying and ultimately controlling online behaviors- "making users dance", as one FB employee put it. FB is really good at this.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by redir

I do need to catch up on all of this and try to keep an open mind. I know we are all susceptible to propaganda, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance and so on. We tend to want to seek out our own echo chambers... But still. It only takes a second to fact check something. So when i see something that looks like BS to me on FB instead of running with it I just look for better sources. It's not that hard. SO the question is, is that really Facebooks fault? Maybe it is I don't know, that's why I am trying to be open about it.

BUT you 'may' be in a minority. Many, many, in this very argumentative, mean, insulting and divisive age, look for the POV that they agree with and stop there. So...conspiracy theories are taken as hard evidence and concrete facts...and if you dare to dispute them, even with the truth, you are branded, banished, pigeon holed as 'one of them, the opposition'.

As mentioned, FB mean, insulting, loud metrics make FB and Zuck a TON of $.

FB and Zuck have swimming pools of $, a legion of lawyers, a cadre of hinge necks(yessir, yessir, mr Zuck, 3 bags full)...so...glad I'm not on FB, never have been...nor insta-whatever-whatever, twit-fool or any of the others...

I don't think FB is the disease, but a symptom of this present day ill society...born on date about 2015 or so...IMHO...

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by marciero

You're giving them way too much credit. By all accounts, there was never any such consideration of truth in any FB playbook. Rather, what we've seen is the predictable and logical effect of an intentional strategy that exploits the unique potential of the internet for behavior modification with the sole goal of increasing engagement, whatever the consequences. That's not just their business model but it is baked into their culture, and hence, will take more than modifying a few algorithms to change. This part is often overlooked in the conversation about personal data and tracking. But it comes down to modifying and ultimately controlling online behaviors- "making users dance", as one FB employee put it. FB is really good at this.

I control my online behavior.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

To play the Devil's advocate, Facebook is a company - a public company and they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make money. Nothing they are doing is illegal. And how are they worse than Fox News?

You can make the argument that Facebook is fine. People are not.

And I don't have a Facebook account or instagram or anything like that.

I completely agree, people are pissed when FB share price doesn't go up. Capitalism is the game and FB and amazon and fox news are all winning so why should they be punished? When the headlines are "Facebook choose profits over people." Well yeah, duh, every public company is incentivized to choose profits over people.

The "people are the problem" you allude to is oversimplifying it. I know that might not be "your" argument, but that's always the main counter argument. They could all choose people AND profits but have made a conscious decision not too.

[Likes2ridefar]

When the majority of people have limited education and capabilities to distinguish between what is fact and fiction it’s not the peoples fault.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

When the majority of people have limited education and capabilities to distinguish between what is fact and fiction it’s not the peoples fault.

Yep. Makes it easier to get them to vote against their self-interest too.

[norcalbiker]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I dont know anything about that and do not have a Facebook account, but do look at other people's bikes, dogs and food on instagram.

Perhaps I'm incorrect, but if Facebook and Instagram both shut down abruptly, completely and indefinitely in the next hour, I dont think it would have any effect on my life at all.

^^^This^^^

I never have facebook, instagram, tweeter, tiktok and not even nextdoor.
I am an oldschool.

[norcalbiker]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

When the majority of people have limited education and capabilities to distinguish between what is fact and fiction it’s not the peoples fault.

When the majority of people only have one source of information, then that's their fault.

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by norcalbiker

When the majority of people only have one source of information, then that's their fault.

I 100% disagree. They know what they are told, generally, and most that are telling them don’t know much either or have other interests in play.

[redir]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

BUT you 'may' be in a minority. Many, many, in this very argumentative, mean, insulting and divisive age, look for the POV that they agree with and stop there. So...conspiracy theories are taken as hard evidence and concrete facts...and if you dare to dispute them, even with the truth, you are branded, banished, pigeon holed as 'one of them, the opposition'.

As mentioned, FB mean, insulting, loud metrics make FB and Zuck a TON of $.

FB and Zuck have swimming pools of $, a legion of lawyers, a cadre of hinge necks(yessir, yessir, mr Zuck, 3 bags full)...so...glad I'm not on FB, never have been...nor insta-whatever-whatever, twit-fool or any of the others...

I don't think FB is the disease, but a symptom of this present day ill society...born on date about 2015 or so...IMHO...

Right. So somehow we need to understand that there is an average in society and that average will always be susceptible to XY and or Z. Those are the people that need to be 'designed' for. We are only as strong as the weakest link.

But we have guaranteed rights to any BS we chose to say. In fact it's not even illegal for politicians to lie. It's just a never ending circle.

[marciero]

The effects of what amounts to social engineering on such a massive scale have only been recognized and studied recently. As the causal impacts on society are better understood we are seeing a bigger push for regulation.

So whether what FB is doing is illegal and whether is should be illegal are two different questions. Also, either way, companies can and have been held civilly responsible for legal actions whose negative impacts they were well aware of.

[norcalbiker]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

I 100% disagree. They know what they are told, generally, and most that are telling them don’t know much either or have other interests in play.

They don't know what they are told. They believe what they're told.

[flying]

Originally Posted by Keith A

It is truly scary how much they are tracking/watching us. Neither my wife or I have FB or their Messenger app on our phones, and I only access FB through their website. I try and stay on top of who has access to what data, but I wouldn't be surprised if some app or website has more access than what I want.

So the other day my wife and I were talking about a friend who is starting a life coaching business. It was a brief conversation and at least one of our phones was on and in the room. Later on that day, I went to look at something on Facebook and the first ad that popped up was about a Life Coach. I have never once searched on this topic, and I'm absolutely convinced that this ad was based on our conversation earlier that day.

I think we are all waaay beyond having any "opt out" ability just by restricting an app or two

When NSA built that monster in Utah we all pretty much knew. You are either in or your out but to be out you have to be waaaay out...as in no cell phone, no internet, no credit cards etc etc etc....really off the grid

If any of us are a person of interest we can be thoroughly looked into FB/Messenger or not

[mcteague]

I have a FB account but spend little time there. Mostly to see what family and distant friends are up to. Occasionally I'll post something that I think they might like. I get ZERO news from FB and have no feeds coming from them. I'd like schools to spend time teaching critical thinking, along with basic personal finance, but have little hope that will come to pass.

Tim