Honey and vinegar

[joosttx]

I just finished reading the Transgender winning athlete thread and frankly want to make a plea. I wish I was more eloquent and technically skilled at writing so that I can surgically address my topic without it seeming like I am attacking different philosophical, ethical viewpoints because I am not but lack the skill to express that. And by not attacking them does not mean I agree with them. I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted. And this post is about that subject, so I will repeat my last sentence I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted than everyone's viewpoints on the subject.

Gender classification of transgender persons in sports is a very complex issue that I have not thought too much about simply because it is very complex and does not affect me personally or my personal orbit, forgive me. Sports physiology, ethics, psychological and personal experience all meld together in this debate like more social debates (substitute Science for sports phys.). Posters cited all these categories that helped build a picture of the complexity. Others admitted ignorance, and other posters took hard positions on either side of the issue without much reasoning. And of course, some trolled and got really nasty.

My plea that when someone disagrees with you or explains ignorance that you do not assume the worst and attack them. That is no way to convince someone. All it does is pushes them away from you. We are never going to get anywhere screaming at each other- it is like the opposite of logical stalemate, its a yellmate tm. (just made that up)

We can get somewhere by disagreeing . It is also cool to gravitate to people who share you views. Just make sound, thoughtful arguments for your position or simply provide credible information important to the discussion. Attacking people who disagree with you only drives a wedge between you and them, fueling distrust between you and them on all topics. Ultimately building tribes.

I am a middle-aged white male of privilege. I believe privilege comes with responsibility and that my viewpoint is not the same as others- I have not walked in your shoes. But my education and privilege have taught me to recognize this and learn from others views and experience.

So, please understand that the best way to have someone hear you is not to attack them or belittle them but present your stance and where it comes from so that they can understand your points. They may not agree but I think more of them will think you (and your ideas) are less of a jackass. And respect will be earned regardless of your position.

So try honey before vinegar and fight tribalism and champion thoughtfulness.

[Andy sti]

Very nice post. Thank you.

[rustychisel]

I think you addressed your plea very capably, and agree.
Thank you.

Some of the problems with 'keyboard warriors' on many forums is their need to return - again and again and again. Having made their point they are then unable to let it go, or to let the orignal point stand of fall on its merits.

[Black Dog]

Thank you. We all need to remember that we are all sharing the great adventure of being alive together. Identity politics and tribalism drive us apart and separate us from our common humanity with so many artificial distinctions.

[gngroup]

Good stuff Houston!

[pbarry]

^^ +1

A sticky thread for sure. Thank you.

[Dougb]

I appreciate the call for civil discourse. I wish more people in this world shared your sentiments.

Doug

[weisan]

houston pal, I appreciate where you are coming from. I concur. I agree. I support. Fully and whole-heartedly.

But if I may, I would like to contribute to the discussion by making a few general observations. And do forgive me, for I, too, am limited by my ability to express myself adequately, in any case I will do my best.

We are our worst enemy.

I just read some recent facebook postings by my friend dbrk encouraging folks to engage in political discourse and not to shun from talking about religion, both are off-limits here on this forum. You can read them here:
https://www.facebook.com/profdbrk/


I don't have a facebook account and I don't hang out at FB. The reason I found those posts is in searching for "Douglas Brooks" on google. I missed my friend dbrk and his contributions on this forum. His name came up in my recent conversation with Ray, we both had the privilege and the pleasure of attending one of the forum gatherings that Douglas and his wife had hosted at their house. They are such a lovely and generous couple who have opened up their house regularly and provided hospitality. We, like many, are much indebted to them.

Coming back to the point I was trying to make...we are our worst enemy.

It's well and good to appeal for fruitful discussions but it's never easy to carry them out in practice. So much of it depends on how well we have done our homework, our own sense of self-awareness, acknowledging our blindspots, biases and prejudice, before we can even begin to express empathy and seek to understand the other person's viewpoint.

It's a lot of work....and very few among us will be able to do that regularly and consistently. And when you are talking about posting on a forum where typing a quick response and hit submit, knee-jerk reactions, all that thoughtfulness and well-manicured arguments pretty much go out the window unless we observed a high degree of self-discipline and moral obligations. Again, hard to ask of anyone to do that regularly and consistently. If we are honest with ourselves and fortunately or perhaps unfortunately, whatever we posted on this forum remained a "searchable record" that we can look back and review and if we do, what we will find is...even the best among us don't have a "perfect" record. We are all guilty at some point of violating the very code of conduct that we advocate to carry out and demand of others. We are our worst enemy. Hard to live by a high standard on a regular and consistent basis. Nobody can do it. Doesn't mean we don't try. But it takes a lot of work and concentration. This is a forum. Some take it more seriously than others. The ones who take themselves too seriously...they are gone. They were offended at some point or threw in the towel. They crushed under the weight of their own expectations and the demands they made of others.

Even my friend dbrk is "guilty" at some point of cutting someone off in a political or religious discussion. I have seen it before. It's not his fault.
It's not easy to engage in that kind of conversation. Now here, not on this forum. It takes a great deal of trust, goodwill, and patience to see it through. The setting and the context have to be just right and appropriate for any meaningful progress to be made on those types of topics. They don't just happen. Prior preparations and ground rules are needed.

Houston pal, you are "guilty" too. I have seen it.
So am I.

We are not perfect.
We have good days and bad days.
Our life circumstances, upbringing and training shaped us a certain way. They don't change overnight. For most, they don't change AT ALL...for the rest of their lives. They stayed the course for the most part.

Life changing events are few and between. It takes a real jolt for someone to wake up from their fixed ideas.

We are all the same. Some can handle certain pressure and stress better than others but in the end, they too are only humans.

These are just some of my random thoughts.

[bigbill]

Because we don't have face to face conversations, we've lost the politeness required when disagreeing with a person who is actually there in real life. There's no real repercussion for being a jerk or using a personal attack in an argument if that person is on line. Now we see it in real life because as a society, we've lost the polite part.

[dustyrider]

I’m paraphrasing but, “we’re not mad at what people have done to us, we’re mad at what we tell ourselves people have done to us.” -Marshall Rosenberg.

If you’re interested in non-violent communication, really more like an entirely different perception: YouTube

[Clean39T]

+1 to all of what's above...

Also, we must remember that while many of us post frequently here (I just rolled over 6K posts since Jan of 2017! ) and have some level of familiarity among the regulars, there are a great deal more who post infrequently and read often, or who just pop in every now and then. So, any conversation being had here that is striving for nuance and understanding must do so knowing full well that in addition to the four friends sitting at a table trying to work things out, there's a studio audience with hot mics and open ears, each person coming and going as they please, and bringing with them a whole backpack of life experiences and proclivities, acknowledged or buried.

Which is to say, there's a good reason that its hard to have a difficult conversation on this or any forum without it going off the rails. The tent is simply too big. And I for one appreciate having this board kept mostly to the non-controversial spaces where our Venn-Diagrams of common interest overlap the most. It keeps it an enjoyable place to visit, and the numbers up.

Maybe those who want to engage in the harder stuff need to find a way to have chats about it in a not-so-public place. And I'm not talking about an off-topic forum yellmate (tm). Something more like an organic group-chat. Yes, that misses out on others being enlightened by the conversation, or missing an opportunity to show up at the same level of interest and understanding to contribute meaningfully. But it's probably the most productive way to go about things.

If anyone wishes to know what I think about anything, feel free to shoot me a PM -- I doubt it'll be that interesting, but who knows -- we both may learn something. Note: I know little about that which changes day to day, and try to understand much about that which has run long through history. I'm not easily angered, but have little time for those who think the world revolves around or should cater to them.

[CMiller]

Yes yes yes +1

[sparky33]

I like to think that all people know and understand this, but it is incredibly helpful to have the reminder every once in a while.

wrt recent matters beyond this forum, I needed that reminder today. Thx

Originally Posted by joosttx

So try honey before vinegar and fight tribalism and champion thoughtfulness.

[drewski]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I just finished reading the Transgender winning athlete thread and frankly want to make a plea. I wish I was more eloquent and technically skilled at writing so that I can surgically address my topic without it seeming like I am attacking different philosophical, ethical viewpoints because I am not but lack the skill to express that. And by not attacking them does not mean I agree with them. I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted. And this post is about that subject, so I will repeat my last sentence I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted than everyone's viewpoints on the subject.

Gender classification of transgender persons in sports is a very complex issue that I have not thought too much about simply because it is very complex and does not affect me personally or my personal orbit, forgive me. Sports physiology, ethics, psychological and personal experience all meld together in this debate like more social debates (substitute Science for sports phys.). Posters cited all these categories that helped build a picture of the complexity. Others admitted ignorance, and other posters took hard positions on either side of the issue without much reasoning. And of course, some trolled and got really nasty.

My plea that when someone disagrees with you or explains ignorance that you do not assume the worst and attack them. That is no way to convince someone. All it does is pushes them away from you. We are never going to get anywhere screaming at each other- it is like the opposite of logical stalemate, its a yellmate tm. (just made that up)

We can get somewhere by disagreeing . It is also cool to gravitate to people who share you views. Just make sound, thoughtful arguments for your position or simply provide credible information important to the discussion. Attacking people who disagree with you only drives a wedge between you and them, fueling distrust between you and them on all topics. Ultimately building tribes.

I am a middle-aged white male of privilege. I believe privilege comes with responsibility and that my viewpoint is not the same as others- I have not walked in your shoes. But my education and privilege have taught me to recognize this and learn from others views and experience.

So, please understand that the best way to have someone hear you is not to attack them or belittle them but present your stance and where it comes from so that they can understand your points. They may not agree but I think more of them will think you (and your ideas) are less of a jackass. And respect will be earned regardless of your position.

So try honey before vinegar and fight tribalism and champion thoughtfulness.

Great note joosttx!!!! Love the spirit you are trying to convey.

I like the idea of a round open door where we can all fit in. Hard to talk about matters which are nuanced via a typed post. But I like the idea of remembering to keep a intention to be respectful and open to other view points. Even those we do not agree with.

I think the adage that sticks and stones ... words will never harm me
is bogus. Words matter!!!

By Rumi -middle verse of poem called A Great Wagon.




“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase “each other”
doesn’t make any sense.
The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
Don’t go back to sleep.
You must ask for what you really want.
Don’t go back to sleep.
People are going back and forth across the doorsill
where the two worlds touch.
The door is round and open.
Don’t go back to sleep.”

[Lewis Moon]

First, I'll freely admit I thought this was a recipe for a recovery drink.

However...
Thank you. We have become so polarized in our information silos that civilized discourse almost impossible. We need to communicate.
I'm pretty far out on the left tail of the political bell curve, but that doesn't mean that I cannot see, or even agree with some of the arguments on the right. But it seems almost as if we avoid finding any common ground because the rage feels so good. Cathartic, if you will.
Rage is cheap. It's easier to think in black and white, on or off, ones and zeros. Navigating the grey areas, or even admitting they exist is hard. But that's where we can find the space to move forward.