Irrational desire to ride a Pinarello Dogma

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by SoCalSteve

I guess I need to weigh in here...



Never wanted to try one as I thought they were weird looking and made in the Far East and all that. Until I saw a used F8 in my size for super cheap on eBay. Was still skeptical, but bought it, built it, rode it and absolutely loved it. I mean, it just worked!



Fit like a glove, super comfy, handles great and just overall amazingly well built. And, this is crazy as I’m not even close to being a weight weenie. Without even trying, it built up to be 16lbs with pedals. This is for a size 59.5.



So, of course I sold it!!!



And then I bought a Dogma K10-S. Same geometry, same high quality with an adjustable soft tail rear suspension, flat mount disc brakes and can handle 28’s easily.



Sold off all my rim brake bikes except my beloved Ottrott. Waiting on a custom No22 disc brake Ti bike.



And....I’m done!!!!!!

So was the F8 more performance oriented than you were looking for? Or why the move to the K10?

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[nmrt]

i will be the lone dissenter here. many years ago, i took the dogma 65.1 for an extended test ride (about 1.5 hrs). i absolutely hated it. having never ridden a carbon bike then, the dogma was an accurate testimony to everything bad that i had read about carbon bikes -- dead feeling, stiff, and "passionless". hmmm....i thought. thanks goodness that i do not own a carbon bike.

but then after returning the dogma, i took a bmc slr 01 team machine out for the test ride. it was one of those bike days in boulder where many manufacturers come and let you test ride their bike. suffice to say, the bmc was amazing compared to the dogma. i even considered selling my seven axiom slx to get the bmc.

since that day dogma ceased to exist as a bike in my mind.

[dbnm]

I will be in Italy for the next few weeks and I'm hoping to rent a Pinarello for a couple of days

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by nmrt

i will be the lone dissenter here. many years ago, i took the dogma 65.1 for an extended test ride (about 1.5 hrs). i absolutely hated it. having never ridden a carbon bike then, the dogma was an accurate testimony to everything bad that i had read about carbon bikes -- dead feeling, stiff, and "passionless". hmmm....i thought. thanks goodness that i do not own a carbon bike.

but then after returning the dogma, i took a bmc slr 01 team machine out for the test ride. it was one of those bike days in boulder where many manufacturers come and let you test ride their bike. suffice to say, the bmc was amazing compared to the dogma. i even considered selling my seven axiom slx to get the bmc.

since that day dogma ceased to exist as a bike in my mind.

Interesting. Did you normalize for tires, air pressure, fit, wheels, etc. to some extent?

I've had days where I've felt dead and passionless on the same bike where I've felt invincible a few days before/after.

I've heard very good things about the BMC SLR01 though. And they sometimes come up for sale pretty reasonably priced.

[KarlC]

Imaking20 Dogma Think 65.1 peeked my interest, when he sold it I considered it, but got an F8 in the end. I did a lot of reading and one thing that kept coming up was how they are still lively feeling when most carbon feels dead.

Here is Imaking20 bike .... https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...83f28be0f317e7





ALSO ...... There is some interesting info in this Looong thread started by Lionel on velocipedesalon on the F8 vs the F10 ....

If you like reading about Pinarello and how they where designed, built, ride and stiff bikes this is a long thread on the F8, F10, F10 X and a few other bikes...... (I think there are links to the F8 and F10 white papers in there somewhere if you want even more to read)

Lionel's Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...iff-50213.html

I thought Craigs input was interesting, he looks to have had some inside knowledge .......

Here are a few bits from Lionel's Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

Originally Posted by jerk

it's not as nice a bike. the f8s rode better than the f10s.

Originally Posted by jerk

here is my take and what i emailed Lionel:

Hi Lionel:

I'll chime in- I've just been really busy. The long and short of it is that a lot of folks prefer the F10 to the F8- because it is more of a "regular" bike. It's a bit lighter but isn't as stiff torsionally or as the F8. I think what you are feeling regarding an increase in stiffness is actually the opposite. If you wiggle the handlebars while straddling the bike- the F10 has noticeably more flex along the top tube.

I've got a couple of clients who upgraded from the F8 to the F10 and most find the F10 more comfortable and a better bike for long rides. Honestly- the F10 X is more like an F8- the frame is built under tension and the carbon is pulled taut and that give the thing that kind of ride quality where it feels like the bike wants to spring and pounce while still being incredibly solid.

The F10 to me- certainly isn't as dyanmic and quick feeling as the F8. It's a more planted bike and more traditional- I think this is because they're using the best technology regarding the carbon lay-up with the X series bikes.

Talk soon!

Craig


The F8 was probably one of the most costly development projects in procycling history that didn't involve blood doping and sketchy doctors. Jaguar funded a lot of it and the whole thing was based upon trying to make the bike behave consistently regardless of drag conditions. The findings showed that attacking out of a small group, taking a turn at the front of a peloton, even descending solo or making short sudden accelerations when riding with no draft on a mountain- created very specific turbulences which affected the bike in different ways. All the weird shaping was done to counteract that- basically to try to make the bike feel the same regardless of turbulence while still maintaining a low drag silohouette. Ironically- a small tubed round frame actually does this the best- but they have a lot more drag than a modern aero frame.

Since the Think2 Dogma- Pinarellos have built their top of the line frames under tension. This is why despite indentical geometry- the Dogma rides so much different than the lower end models. The bike frame is taut- which has historically allowed Pinarello to build a very light frame that feels like a heavier more planted bike. I'm not 100% sure- because I'm only privy to the development data up the the F8- but the new F10 doesn't look or ride like a bike frame that is built in this way. On the other hand, the F10 X-Light does. I wonder if Pinarello is simply using the higher modulas lighter carbon with the F10 but is saving the fancy build process stuff for the X-Light. Anyway- I like the F8 better too- most regular consumers don't. The F10 is lighter and feels more comfortable.

Originally Posted by Lionel

Thank you for that, very useful information. I wish I had talked to you before buying the F10 and selling the F8

Originally Posted by jerk

a lot of this tells me that we're doing something right here at Summer Cycles. no one should be buying $12,000 bikes without a knowing exactly what they're getting. we've got 30 bikes here in the shop exclusively so folks can try stuff before they ride. You might not be able to try an Aerotack with eTap in your size- but you'll certainly be able to try soemthing in your size with eTap and an Aerotack in your size built up with something nice.

this "i told you so" lesson could and should have been avoided by using all the resources available to you when you're really trying to buy something without compromise. of course it is fair to assume that an F10 would be "better" than an F8 and I dare say that for most folks it is.

i've got a client now who is interested in an Aerotack and quite frankly I do not have enough information to build them a bike. they've never ridden a bike that fits them properly- and the feedback i got during our phone interview and through our email conversations means i'm flying them out here to ride some bikes and get a fitting done.

other folks can simply communicate working positionals to me- tell me what they like and what they'd hope to improve on their current bike and we're off to the races. buying a custom bike should be a process that eliminates any compromises and delivers a sporting good to the ride that exceeds their expectations.

there's a healthy market for used Gaulzettis for example and people love those bikes I'm sure- but I don't. i think that unless they're significantly cheaper than a comparable Trek or Specialized or Pinarello- most folks are better off going into a good bike shop and trying out a bunch of bikes and picking one. when you're buying a Gaulzetti the value is almost wholly in the dialectical process between me and the athlete. what that process produces is a sporting good designed and built specifically for their requirements and desires.

with a stock bike like the f10- the best thing to do is to have one set up to your positionals and try the bike before you buy it. when you ride a giant bike like Lionel or a tiny one, that probably isn't possible- but then you do owe it yourself to use your resources to get as much information as possible about what to expect from the bike. as lionel mentioned above, he probably would have benefited from speaking with someone who had ridden both the F8 and the F10 or had spoken to many folks who had. when i was selling a lot of pinarellos- i'd constantly pester the guys at Gita to get their feedback on the characteristics of the new models as they came out. i wanted to know what the hell to expect from a Marvel versus an F4:13 before i decided to invest in floor bikes at the old shop.

i'm working on a 46cm Giro d'Italia edition F10 right now. the owner could not be happier with her F10- because it rides and fits like her old Paris but is just a bit more comfortable and good deal lighter. She was game to upgrade her Paris last year- but the F8 was just too much bike for her. It was simply too stiff and hard for her and her preferences and riding style- but the F10 is perfect.

The nice thing about the Aerotack project is that we have a proverbial magic wand. We can give the bike the taut rigidity some riders favor- or we can go the opposite way and add tenax/kevlar strategically in order to allow the frame to absorb road shock and vibration. If a client is looking for a climbing bike- we can sacrifice some torsional rigidity- keep the drivetrain reasonably stiff and snappy and get the thing down to the 800gram mark. All of this is before we mess with the frame geometry to insure the bike handles properly and that the athlete's positionals are translated in a confident well balanced bicycle.

[Clean39T]

What I find fascinating is the geometry differences between the 59.5 and 57.5...

57.5: 72mm BB drop. 73-deg STA. 575mm TT. 596 front. 584 stack, 397 reach.
59.5: 67mm BB drop. 72.4-deg STA. 587mm TT. 605 front. 612 stack, 394 reach.


Sort of like comparing the geo on a 58 v. 60 SS EVO.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by KarlC

Imaking20 Dogma Think 65.1 peeked my interest, when he sold it I considered it, but got an F8 in the end. I did a lot of reading and one thing that kept coming up was how they are still lively feeling when most carbon feels dead.

Here is Imaking20 bike .... https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...83f28be0f317e7





ALSO ...... There is some interesting info in this Looong thread started by Lionel on velocipedesalon on the F8 vs the F10 ....

If you like reading about Pinarello and how they where designed, built, ride and stiff bikes this is a long thread on the F8, F10, F10 X and a few other bikes...... (I think there are links to the F8 and F10 white papers in there somewhere if you want even more to read)

Lionel's Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...iff-50213.html

I thought Craigs input was interesting, he looks to have had some inside knowledge .......

Here are a few bits from Lionel's Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

If I go down those rabbit holes, I'll almost certainly end up buying one

Good Sunday reading though when I have obligations keeping me from riding

[R3awak3n]

I would not buy a bike that only clears 23mm.. Specially when you are used to the good stuff. 25mm is a maybe but we all know 28 is the sweet spot (actually I am a 32mm kind of guy now but still enjoy 28s). If I was to get one probably be an F8.

That said, it would be really hard choosing btw a dogma or a C59/C60/C64.... I actually think lately I would pick the dogma just because its so different

[nmrt]

since this was a test ride from the manufacturers, the only thing i normalized for were fit and tire pressure. but i do remember that both of them had some cookie cutter mavic alloy wheels.

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Interesting. Did you normalize for tires, air pressure, fit, wheels, etc. to some extent?

I've had days where I've felt dead and passionless on the same bike where I've felt invincible a few days before/after.

I've heard very good things about the BMC SLR01 though. And they sometimes come up for sale pretty reasonably priced.

[shinomaster]

That would be a nice frame for a blind person.

[tony_mm]

The Dogma is a superb bike. But not for everybody.
Many complain about its harshness....well it is a race road bike with some aero advantage. Totally different than a C59/60/64 or a BMC SLR 01.

The best is to try one from a dealership and decide.



BTW I would only buy a new one from an authorized dealership or used with all papers/ invoices etc..that clearly shows that it was bought from an authorized dealership. Too many counterfeits.

[Kirk007]

I figure I'll wait for a few more years atrophy of stamina and then just get the Pina Nytro ; )

[weisan]

Clean's pal, your desire is not irrational at all! There's no other bike in the world like the Dogma or its predecessor that could turn its rider into Ip Man or Peter Sagan....






You have to ride one to know what I am talkin' about.

Ridin' is believing!

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by weisan

Clean's pal, your desire is not irrational at all! There's no other bike in the world like the Dogma or its predecessor that could turn its rider into Ip Man or Peter Sagan....













You have to ride one to know what I am talkin' about.



Ridin' is believing!

Ha ha

It's only irrational because I have no room - unless I can convince my wife it's wall-art...

The desire to ride and tinker w a pro-level scoot is completely rational. Even if only for a short while.

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[Blown Reek]

Originally Posted by KarlC

I thought Craigs input was interesting, he looks to have had some inside knowledge

That whole nonsense about being constructed "under tension" versus the previous version is just that... nonsense. Once you get past that, there ain't much difference between the F8 and F10 (and most likely F12).

Get what you think is cool, because the difference between brands' top choices isn't nearly as much as what they're marketing to you.