OT-ish: Seattle vs SF

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

yo. I think we've run in the sameish circles (FCC mayhaps).

My human and I are in the same financial situation as you and yours. We left an apartment in SF (Noe/Mission) last spring for a rental house in Oakland (Uptown/Pill Hill). Portland was (is) on the radar when we made the move. I haven't been to Seattle since I was a kid, but have spent a fair bit of time in Portland over the past few years. Hence, I'll offer my thoughts on the city with the roses independent of the one with the fish market.

PDX seems insanely affordable for QoL if you're childless, into nerdy crap (hi), the outdoors (also hi), walkability/bikeability (hi hi hi), good food (hi hi hi hi), and can work remotely. Local jobs seem to pay pretty poorly - just before the pandy, I was offered a higher-level role at a company based there that paid a good 60% what the same job would've in SF. It's still on our shortishlist, but we're sitting in Oakland for the moment.

Portland downsides:
-Significantly worse (winter) weather than the general Bay Area, though I'd argue SF's weather might be on par re: frigid wind and fog, especially in the Outer Richmond, and especially in the summer.
-If the sight of tents/needles/poo on sidewalks offends you, might not be for you. I've never felt unsafe in Portland, but I'm also a tall white man. Parts are pretty grungy - I'd argue bits of downtown/Chinatown PDX are more depressing than the 'loin.
-Pretty monocultural/white. But so's Seattle.
-Airport access isn't great. Gotta connect for most anything that isn't regional.

Upsides:
-Much flatter/easier to get around than SF by bike and foot.
-Cheap. Lots of nice craftsman houses in desirable neighborhoods that would be $1.5m in the SF Bay are half that there. As you know.
-Really tight, welcoming communities around (insert interest here), and a generally warmer vibe than the Bay. Methinks lack of tech helps. Population is a lot less transient. Folks seem a lot more...er, interesting than here, but that's an extremely subjective thing for me to say.
-Do you like beer?
-Way easier to get lost quickly out of town into remote spaces (relative to SF).
-Lots of great local road and MTB riding, and Hood River is an hourish outta town for great MTB. And road. And grav grav. And then there's Bend.

I don't think I could deal with Seattle's weather. The recent wet spell in SF was enough for me. For us and for now, Oakland is a huge improvement. Public safety is definitely a concern, but not enough for us to meaningfully degrade the quality of our everyday lives - it was worse in SF, tbh. Weather's better, people are nicer, there seems to be more opportunity to build community, we're still in a really walkable locale, and not having to deal with the ****show that is the GGB/Marin County schlep for outdoor access (esp during summer weekends) is really nice. Even when I lived in southern Marin, I'd avoid riding anytime past noon on the weekends.

A lot of this rings true, however:

The SW and NW burbs of Portland are insanely nice - the road riding is incredible in terms of varied terrain and how quickly you can get away from traffic, the access to organic groceries and local stuff is hard to beat, and all the cultural stuff is not too far away when you want it (concerts, art, etc.). Many foodie restaurants, coffee shops, and breweries are moving out of the city or opening satellite locations. The coast and wine country are very close. And we have a bona fide Pegoretti dealer, plus a 8/9/10 speed Campy fluent shop. The cycling culture is diverse too - there’s cross and road and bikepacking and MTB and commuting and gravel racing and everything in between.. All that is why I’ve stayed, despite a strong pull to be closer to the water up north.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

All that is why I’ve stayed, despite a strong pull to be closer to the water up north.

Smart choice

[krooj]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Eh, more the occasional sounds of gunfire and stolen cars that get dumped in the neighborhood, neighbors have had cars broken into - standard Yay Area stuff. In SF we had two vehicles stolen (one was destroyed/stripped), I had my studio burglarized once.

Like I said - I don't ever feel unsafe, and it's generally just property crime. Not like OPD gonna do anything anyway. Just keep your wits about you and don't be a confrontational dumbass is kind of the rule.

The property crime just kinda wears us down - sometimes it's funny: 2 years in Santa Cruz and we saw three car fires, including one guy that drove right up to the apartment, plugged the gas tank with something, lit the whole car up, then walked away. Other times it's frustrating: stolen and trashed motorcycle, car break ins, porch pirates...

We never really felt unsafe in Santa Cruz, but SF is different. We've been followed, my wife has been assaulted on her bike while riding to work, we both remove our wedding bands, watches, etc when walking SW on Market, or in SOMA. You don't go into the TL at all.

Hilariously, I wear birkies everywhere and really don't like it when shards of tempered glass from cars get caught in my sandals.

When folks say city-x is rough, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. I grew up and lived in a large city (Toronto) and have seen my fair share of sketch abroad, in Vancouver, Victoria, DTLA, etc... Some places are straight up unsafe (Buffalo, NY) while other places are just poor (Rochester, NY). I'm sure Seattle and Portland will have their spots, but nothing I've seen so far has been on the level of the Bay Area in terms of a combination of rampant property crime and general lack of personal safety. FFS, folks in this thread are talking about catching burglars attempting a B&E - that's not something you normalize.

[Waldo62]

Good luck with the search and the move. There will be plenty of applicants for your SF rental once it's back on the market.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by krooj

The property crime just kinda wears us down - sometimes it's funny: 2 years in Santa Cruz and we saw three car fires, including one guy that drove right up to the apartment, plugged the gas tank with something, lit the whole car up, then walked away. Other times it's frustrating: stolen and trashed motorcycle, car break ins, porch pirates...

We never really felt unsafe in Santa Cruz, but SF is different. We've been followed, my wife has been assaulted on her bike while riding to work, we both remove our wedding bands, watches, etc when walking SW on Market, or in SOMA. You don't go into the TL at all.

Hilariously, I wear birkies everywhere and really don't like it when shards of tempered glass from cars get caught in my sandals.

When folks say city-x is rough, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. I grew up and lived in a large city (Toronto) and have seen my fair share of sketch abroad, in Vancouver, Victoria, DTLA, etc... Some places are straight up unsafe (Buffalo, NY) while other places are just poor (Rochester, NY). I'm sure Seattle and Portland will have their spots, but nothing I've seen so far has been on the level of the Bay Area in terms of a combination of rampant property crime and general lack of personal safety. FFS, folks in this thread are talking about catching burglars attempting a B&E - that's not something you normalize.

yep, we don't go to SF unless we have to..

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

All else equal though, I’d choose Seattle for the views, history and culture every day of the week.
...
There’s a good chance I’ll be back in the Puget Sound region in the next couple of years though. The pull of the water is just too strong.

Let me know!

[PJN]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

A lot of this rings true, however:

The SW and NW burbs of Portland are insanely nice.

They aren’t sf expensive but they surely are not affordable.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by fourflys

yep, we don't go to SF unless we have to..

I guess past business trips (hotel near the Tenderloin, etc) taught me to compartmentalize when it comes to SF. The list of things I like keeps me coming back, from the hardware store in Japantown (can I own too many Japanese tools?) to a family restaurant in North Beach to my growing stack of poetry books from City Lights.

[monkeybanana86]

Originally Posted by 72gmc

I guess past business trips (hotel near the Tenderloin, etc) taught me to compartmentalize when it comes to SF. The list of things I like keeps me coming back, from the hardware store in Japantown (can I own too many Japanese tools?) to a family restaurant in North Beach to my growing stack of poetry books from City Lights.

That store is great but man the staff sucks. City Lights rules though!

[monkeybanana86]

Originally Posted by PJN

They aren’t sf expensive but they surely are not affordable.

Prices are way down in SF and less competition. It’s a little more normal. Sorry but I hated the tech boom. SF is too small for it.

[B4_Ford]

Portland is no worse than Seattle in terms of homelessness/trash/petty crime. Cycling in Portland is superior to Seattle. Portland has bad traffic, but not Seattle bad or Bay Area bad. Cost of Portland housing has outpaced local salaries, but if you’re coming from California it will seem reasonably priced. You can always negotiate salaries accordingly, employers are realizing they have to pay more to attract and keep talent. Plenty of medical-related industries in the Portland area. Schools vary from mediocre to excellent. If public schools in Portland proper are a concern, the best is the Lincoln HS district. If you head out to the ‘burbs, schools also range from mediocre to excellent, depending on the community.
I’m completely biased though. I grew up in the area, have lived all over, and always wind up coming back to Portland. My wife also grew up here. We recently bought the house we’ll die in, so we’re definitely not relocating. Kids will be done with high school in a couple years so we’ll have more time for travel but Portland is home. Portland has been a great place to put down roots and raise a family. Ignore the weather-related complaints, those people are soft. Having lived briefly in the NYC area during the mid-80’s, the current media frenzy about crime rates seems overblown. I’m cautious and aware of my surroundings, but that’s something you should always be when in any decent sized city.

Shameless plug: my wife is an Oregon real estate broker so if you’re interested in buying in the area, she’d love to help.


I have bad ideas…

[9tubes]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

yo. I think we've run in the sameish circles (FCC mayhaps).

My human and I are in the same financial situation as you and yours. We left an apartment in SF (Noe/Mission) last spring for a rental house in Oakland (Uptown/Pill Hill). Portland was (is) on the radar when we made the move. I haven't been to Seattle since I was a kid, but have spent a fair bit of time in Portland over the past few years. Hence, I'll offer my thoughts on the city with the roses independent of the one with the fish market.

PDX seems insanely affordable for QoL if you're childless, into nerdy crap (hi), the outdoors (also hi), walkability/bikeability (hi hi hi), good food (hi hi hi hi), and can work remotely. Local jobs seem to pay pretty poorly - just before the pandy, I was offered a higher-level role at a company based there that paid a good 60% what the same job would've in SF. It's still on our shortishlist, but we're sitting in Oakland for the moment.

Portland downsides:
-Significantly worse (winter) weather than the general Bay Area, though I'd argue SF's weather might be on par re: frigid wind and fog, especially in the Outer Richmond, and especially in the summer.
-If the sight of tents/needles/poo on sidewalks offends you, might not be for you. I've never felt unsafe in Portland, but I'm also a tall white man. Parts are pretty grungy - I'd argue bits of downtown/Chinatown PDX are more depressing than the 'loin.
-Pretty monocultural/white. But so's Seattle.
-Airport access isn't great. Gotta connect for most anything that isn't regional.

Wow, that is the first time I've seen anyone write that Seattle is monocultural/white. If anyone plans to live within the city limits or in Bellevue city limits, better get used to lots of cultures. There are neighborhoods that are more "white" than others, but here are the official data for Seattle proper (700,000 people):

White alone 64.9%
Asian 16.3%
Hispanic or Latino 7.2%
Black or African American 6.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.5%
Native Hawaiian / Pacific Islander 0.2%
Two or More Races 8.8%

Note that anyone from Arab or Persian nations are put in the white category.

There is a local charity that helps foreign newcomers get settled, that was started when the Vietnamese arrived after that war. I recall the head of funding telling me that they have 58 languages on staff.

Plenty of EU immigrants and temp workers too. I recall someone from MSFT saying about 10 years ago that Seattle/Bellevue had 700 Finnish families (Finnish citizens, not merely Finnish heritage).

[krooj]

Originally Posted by monkeybanana86

Prices are way down in SF and less competition. It’s a little more normal. Sorry but I hated the tech boom. SF is too small for it.

Prices are going down across the board cause interest rates went up and cheap money is done. The tech bust in SF is just adding to that, but SF demand will always be high. I'd rather not dump 1.2mil into a ****box that needs another 200k to be habitable

And yeah... "tech" is basically cancer and I say that as an SWE which trends waay more outgoing than the average person in that crowd. My hobbies don't include video games, reddit, and hentai.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by monkeybanana86

Sorry but I hated the tech boom. SF is too small for it.

I agree with this sentiment. There was a lot of flexing that would've been better placed in a larger setting--Shanghai, perhaps. Pre-handover Hong Kong.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by 9tubes

Wow, that is the first time I've seen anyone write that Seattle is monocultural/white. If anyone plans to live within the city limits or in Bellevue city limits, better get used to lots of cultures. There are neighborhoods that are more "white" than others, but here are the official data for Seattle proper (700,000 people):

White alone 64.9%
Asian 16.3%
Hispanic or Latino 7.2%
Black or African American 6.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native 0.5%
Native Hawaiian / Pacific Islander 0.2%
Two or More Races 8.8%

Note that anyone from Arab or Persian nations are put in the white category.

There is a local charity that helps foreign newcomers get settled, that was started when the Vietnamese arrived after that war. I recall the head of funding telling me that they have 58 languages on staff.

Plenty of EU immigrants and temp workers too. I recall someone from MSFT saying about 10 years ago that Seattle/Bellevue had 700 Finnish families (Finnish citizens, not merely Finnish heritage).

Thanks for this post. This city has changed so much in my time, and perhaps my favorite change is how multinational / multicultural it's become, at least compared to what it was.