Opinion: Campagnolo should...

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I think YUGE risk. Valentino remembers the MTB fiasco, it nearly put Campag under. BIG $ to set this up..not just a low $, quick transition.

Campagnolo entering MTB is completely different than if Fulcrum did Gravel/All Road

First, Campagnolo had no business in MTB. This was a "heritage" road racing company from Europe, who many in MTB had never heard of, trying to come into a predominantly American market, with high price points and road 'ideas'. The kind of thing MTB was raging against. It also required totally new groupsets and components from the ground up. It was never in the Campagnolo DNA, and was destined to fail from day one.

Fulcrum, with all due respect, has no DNA. They are a sticker swap company. This could give them DNA and Gravel groups are primarily "road-based" so the lion's share of the work is done... the pieces can be cross-compatible. GRX is a reworking of road components with the exception of the MTB rear derailleur. Plus, Furlcrum can hit a price point Campagnolo cannot otherwise they risk upsetting their whole hierarchy and pricing. And there will be a tiny segment who will hand out Campy $$$ for a crash and bash gravel group.... doesn't fit the image either.

Nobody thinks GRX is going to hurt Ultegra sales, because they're different beasts, different markets, different users... or the same user with different and additional needs. Gravel won't be a shortlived trend. This isn't fixed gear.

If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? 3T and fans of Aqua Blue Sport? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick, and doesn't benefit from their advanced carbon work etc. in a way that road does.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Campagnolo entering MTB would be completely different than Fulcrum doing Gravel/All Road

First, Campagnolo had no business in MTB. This was a "heritage" road racing company from Europe, who many in MTB had never heard of, trying to come into a predominantly American market, with high price points and road 'ideas'. The kind of thing MTB was raging against. It also required totally new groupsets and components from the ground up. It was never in the Campagnolo DNA, and was destine to fail from day one.

Fulcrum, with all due respect, has no DNA. They are a sticker swap company. This could give them DNA and Gravel groups are primarily "road-based" so the lion's share of the work is done... the pieces can be cross-compatible. GRX is a reworking of road components with the exception of the MTB rear derailleur. Plus, Furlcrum can hit a price point Campagnolo cannot otherwise they risk upsetting their whole hierarchy and pricing. And there will be a tiny segment who will hand out Campy $$$ for a crash and bash gravel group.... doesn't fit the image either.

Nobody thinks GRX is going to hurt Ultegra sales, because they're different beasts, different markets, different users... or the same user with different and additional needs. Gravel won't be a shortlived trend. This isn't fixed gear.

If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick.

I don't know what Campy should do but I might have to argue that fixed/SS category is or was short lived. I'd say it's still a full blown category at this point.

[Blue Jays]

No way is our beloved Campagnolo contemplating a 13-speed group.
Superstition would ensure it became a total flop. There is a reason hotels often do not have a 13th floor.
My personal belief is they should have just kept refining, enhancing, and improving 10-speed.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by charliedid

I don't know what Campy should do but I might have to argue that fixed/SS category is or was short lived. I'd say it's still a full blown category at this point.

Fine, it's a 'category', but Gravel will blow fixed gear out of the water. Even here in Europe.... everything is blowing up with Gravel. It's going to get huge.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Fine, it's a 'category', but Gravel will blow fixed gear out of the water. Even here in Europe.... everything is blowing up with Gravel. It's going to get huge.

On that we agree.

[sales guy]

Originally Posted by Blue Jays

No way is our beloved Campagnolo contemplating a 13-speed group.

Originally Posted by rain dogs

If Campagnolo launches a 1x13 Chorus group, who is going to buy it? 3T and fans of Aqua Blue Sport? That would be the MTB fiasco all over again. Gravel componentry needs a lower price point than Campy can offer to be able to stick, and doesn't benefit from their advanced carbon work etc. in a way that road does.

Originally Posted by charliedid

I hear they are finally launching zerospeed intuitive AI shifting.

Originally Posted by zap

I too doubt 13.

Info on 1x and smaller cogs is out there.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

BUT, sure do a 1by but no real reason for 1by except tire clearance, 2by would work great. But remember, gravel, Groad, is still a teeny part of the market. It 'seems' big but in reality, particularly in Europe and Japan, it's still a niche w/i a niche w/i a niche.

Hmm..intriguing..Can't be more than just a 13speed(which I doubt)...

While I can't say what's in the pipeline, I can say a simple USPTO search will show over 50 patents in 2019 alone. Everything from hand controls with no wires to a new freehub body style/engagement methods to cogs as low as 9th to 13 speed cassettes to power meters to 1x drivetrains. And that's just a small amount of the 24 from 2019 I looked at. If even a fraction of them arrives(some will), that will put Campy ahead of others. And if it's in the Chorus group, even better. The new Chorus kit is cheaper than the old version, offers more options for everything and looks awesome. I personally love it.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by sales guy

While I can't say what's in the pipeline, I can say a simple USPTO search will show over 20 patents in 2019 alone. Everything from hand controls with no wires to a new freehub body style/engagement methods to cogs as low as 9th to 13 speed cassettes to power meters to 1x drivetrains. And that's just a small amount of the 24 from 2019. If even a fraction of them arrives(some will), that will put Campy ahead of others. And if it's in the Chorus group, even better. The new Chorus kit is cheaper than the old version, offers more options for everything and looks awesome. I personally love it.

I just did a quick search at the USPTO site for patents granted in the last year with assignee name Campagnolo. It's possible I missed a few things in my brief scanning of the results, but I didn't see any fundamentally ground breaking ideas. Mostly it was incremental improvements to existing components. A few interesting trends popped out, though:

There still appears to be a lot of work being done to improve cable actuated shifting (and everybody thought that electronics would kill cable shifters). For electronic shifting, one patent hints at an automatic shifting system. While there are a number of patents on hydraulic disc brakes, there's still some work being done on cable rim brakes and rim brake wheels. There's a nifty thru-axle design, which includes a retracting torque arm, to make thru-axle wheel changes faster and more convenient. And not surprisingly, there are patents for clutch rear derailleurs.

[colker]

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike? Maybe that´s how Campagnolo sees it too. Touring was never only about eccentrics. Most of what i see as gravel is just touring except gravel racing. Will gravel racing become big? Maybe but the fact is most of the cyclists live in cities and you have to drive to ride gravel. I can´t see how this can be "big" in the long term.
MOuntain biking is a niche these days.

[HTupolev]

Originally Posted by colker

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike?

They're orthogonal concepts. You can have a gravel touring bike, and some touring bikes might make reasonable gravel bikes for some people. But many gravel bikes are not well-suited to bearing extreme loads, and many touring bikes are not well-equipped for dealing with some gravel, or not as lively as some people want their gravel bikes to be.

For example, the super-long chainstays used on many traditional road tourers are excellent for creating clearance between a rider's heels and rear panniers, but poor for keeping the rear wheel planted in low-traction climbing situations.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by colker

Isn´t Gravel a glorified touring bike?

I would say no. Touring bikes are meant to carry gear, so they are designed to accommodate racks and bags. This generally means that they have long chainstays (for heel clearance with using panniers), and to keep the center of gravity low, they often more BB drop (lower BB height). They also frequently have low trail front ends, which improves handling with front mounted racks and bags. While you can often ride gravel on a touring bike, the bikes being sold as "gravel bikes" aren't really setup for touring.

[colker]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I would say no. Touring bikes are meant to carry gear, so they are designed to accommodate racks and bags. This generally means that they have long chainstays (for heel clearance with using panniers), and to keep the center of gravity low, they often more BB drop (lower BB height). They also frequently have low trail front ends, which improves handling with front mounted racks and bags. While you can often ride gravel on a touring bike, the bikes being sold as "gravel bikes" aren't really setup for touring.

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by colker

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.

Gravel bikes are more analogous to cyclocross bikes. And yet, most agree that gravel bikes are different enough from cyclocross bikes that they are separate categories.

While you can't argue that gravel bikes are completely different than touring bikes (they both have two wheels and pedals, afterall), in the spectrum of different bike categories, gravel bikes are further from classic touring bikes than they are from some other types of bikes. Heck, I'd even argue that gravel bikes are fairly close to the drop-bar MTBs that were popular a couple of decades ago.

[HTupolev]

Originally Posted by colker

Take away the panniers and racks, add modern high tech bags and you have a Gravel bike.

I've ridden my touring bike on gravel before, and I'd use it as my gravel bike if I had no other bike with sub-1:1 gears and wider tire clearance than traditional road bikes. But it's not at all how I'd design a gravel bike for myself from the ground up.