OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[rwsaunders]

We are getting ready to install EV charging stations on a project in Chicagoland and I received an excerpt of this news article from our client, concerned that the stations that are specified will perform in extreme weather. Apparently, there are a rash of incidents with the charges taking too long and cars being stranded. What exactly is the range in temperatures below 25F, as I’ve heard comments from friends with hybrids who see drops in performance as well when the weather changes? I have an order in for a CRV hybrid for my wife, so my interest level just jumped.

Several Tesla drivers have complained about charging stations not working in these extreme conditions. Near 95th Street and Western Avenue in Evergreen Park, several Tesla owners were stranded with dead batteries from the cold, and not enough working charging stations at that location. "Our batteries are so cold it's taking longer to charge now, so it should take 45 minutes, it's taking two hours for the one charger that we have," Tesla owner Brandon Welbourne said. "I have seen at least 10 cars get towed away from here because the cars, they died, they've run out of battery. It's too cold, it uses too much of the energy to try to keep the car at a somewhat reasonable temperature, so everybody is getting towed away and we have nowhere to charge."

In Oakbrook, some drivers came looking for a charge, and waited hours. "Right from outside the highway, there's a whole line of cars, about over 20 cars, all Tesla cars,and you can look around here, every single car is a Tesla, and this whole parking lot is full of Teslas and we're waiting and waiting for over an hour," Tesla driver Sajid Ahmed said. "It's unfortunate that these cars are sitting dead in the parking spots." For many drivers, it was too late, their cars died during the long wait, and they had to leave their vehicles stranded and wait for the stations to get up and running again.

Reminds me somewhat of my diesel driving days, when I had to add a product to my tank to prevent paraffin building up in really cold weather, or I’d end up on the side of the road waiting for a tow.

[saab2000]

I fly back to Chicago tomorrow and will be curious how the Tesla performs. It’s currently sitting between 50%-60% and is cold soaked after several days in an open but covered parking garage in temps at or below 0ºF.

This is easily the coldest it has sat in these temps for extended time unplugged.

I think it’ll be fine but I’m sure it’s not easy on it either.

I would never get to a low SOC in super cold temperatures before stopping to charge. Last year I embarked on a trip at around 9ºF and was curious to watch the SOC drop significantly faster than I was expecting and having to stop earlier and more often than I expected. Personally, I don’t mind the stops and make something of them but I know that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. Once I got into warmer weather the performance got significantly better.

It’s my opinion that this trip of a thousand miles proved that such a road trip isn’t in any way impossible but it’s critically important to understand that an EV performs differently than an ICE vehicle in different conditions. Temperature is a pretty important variable. Still, for 99% of my driving, it is an extremely efficient appliance. And even for longer road trips of a thousand miles it generally works just fine though it won’t eat up enormous stretches of road like an ICE vehicle will do.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by saab2000

curious to watch the SOC drop significantly faster than I was expecting and having to stop earlier and more often than I expected.

Is there a screen that shows what percent of battery is getting used by which systems? Our Bolt will show significant % for heat, defroster use, heated mirrors, seats, steering wheel etc etc.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by robt57

Is there a screen that shows what percent of battery is getting used by which systems? Our Bolt will show significant % for heat, defroster use, heated mirrors, seats, steering wheel etc etc.

Yes, but it’s not something I’d ever look into while I was driving. I don’t think it is in real time anyway. The Y can present a ton of data. By far the largest user is physically moving the vehicle. The rest is almost meaningless.

The next I believe is heating the cabin or battery for pre-conditioning, then cooling the cabin then everything else, which usually falls below 1% or lower.

I’d bet only on the propulsion being the largest. But the rest is pretty close to real I think. The main reason I don’t track any of this is because I won’t change how I drive or operate any system based on this info unless I’m in a dire situation. It’s still a car and I drive it as such.

[kppolich]

Things your Tesla will typically tell you are using the most energy on the 'Energy' screen

Vehicle propulsion
Battery warming
Hills
Climate
Other

[robt57]

Yeah, I have not looked in a while myself. But we are talking about it after all, thus it occurred to me to ask.

On average, out Bolt summer VS winter is 25% less mile/kWh rolling when freezing temps. I bet these last few days more, as it has averaged 18-19' a lot for a few days.

My wife uses remote starts 5 days a week, which puts on heat, drivers seat, rear defrost which also heats side view mirrors. Some days 2 cycles. I recall seeing climate up to 38%, this is a lot of range sacrificed. We still only charge to 80% and not 2 days in a row for the 46 mile commute. Which in warm uses as little as 31 miles of range. And in winter as much as near double that.

[saab2000]

Mine is always plugged in at home to the mid-50% range to keep the battery in the sweet spot “from what I understand”. My daily driving is local and when I go to work it is 29 miles and I’ll charge to about 65% the night before that. I make that drive typically once per week and the car sits for anywhere from 2-4 days unplugged.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Mine is always plugged in at home to the mid-50% range to keep the battery in the sweet spot “from what I understand”. My daily driving is local and when I go to work it is 29 miles and I’ll charge to about 65% the night before that. I make that drive typically once per week and the car sits for anywhere from 2-4 days unplugged.

I remember a poster on the LEAF forum (who had to get his battery replaced on his 1st Gen) speculating that he may have inadvertently contributed to its shortened life, He lived somewhere in the CA hills and used charge it fully--and would start his day going downhill, and his LEAF was getting overcharged every morning. Anecdotal--but I think your're doing the right thing...

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by rwsaunders

We are getting ready to install EV charging stations on a project in Chicagoland and I received an excerpt of this news article from our client, concerned that the stations that are specified will perform in extreme weather. Apparently, there are a rash of incidents with the charges taking too long and cars being stranded. What exactly is the range in temperatures below 25F, as I’ve heard comments from friends with hybrids who see drops in performance as well when the weather changes? I have an order in for a CRV hybrid for my wife, so my interest level just jumped.

Several Tesla drivers have complained about charging stations not working in these extreme conditions. Near 95th Street and Western Avenue in Evergreen Park, several Tesla owners were stranded with dead batteries from the cold, and not enough working charging stations at that location. "Our batteries are so cold it's taking longer to charge now, so it should take 45 minutes, it's taking two hours for the one charger that we have," Tesla owner Brandon Welbourne said. "I have seen at least 10 cars get towed away from here because the cars, they died, they've run out of battery. It's too cold, it uses too much of the energy to try to keep the car at a somewhat reasonable temperature, so everybody is getting towed away and we have nowhere to charge."

In Oakbrook, some drivers came looking for a charge, and waited hours. "Right from outside the highway, there's a whole line of cars, about over 20 cars, all Tesla cars,and you can look around here, every single car is a Tesla, and this whole parking lot is full of Teslas and we're waiting and waiting for over an hour," Tesla driver Sajid Ahmed said. "It's unfortunate that these cars are sitting dead in the parking spots." For many drivers, it was too late, their cars died during the long wait, and they had to leave their vehicles stranded and wait for the stations to get up and running again.

Reminds me somewhat of my diesel driving days, when I had to add a product to my tank to prevent paraffin building up in really cold weather, or I’d end up on the side of the road waiting for a tow.

https://youtu.be/a05eu1N42c0?si=IdYkHB8mSnVHI-fd

[zap]

Frigid cold, broken chargers leave Chicago area Tesla owners frustrated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

[kppolich]

Originally Posted by zap

Frigid cold, broken chargers leave Chicago area Tesla owners frustrated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

Will be interesting to see if a Supercharger update will address this in the future, likely an over the air update to keep things running or if the new Superchargers that are being installed now are more weather resistant.

Now, dead 12v batteries, engine block heaters and diesel gel won't get fixed over the air.

[benb]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Yes, but it’s not something I’d ever look into while I was driving. I don’t think it is in real time anyway. The Y can present a ton of data. By far the largest user is physically moving the vehicle. The rest is almost meaningless.

The next I believe is heating the cabin or battery for pre-conditioning, then cooling the cabin then everything else, which usually falls below 1% or lower.

I’d bet only on the propulsion being the largest. But the rest is pretty close to real I think. The main reason I don’t track any of this is because I won’t change how I drive or operate any system based on this info unless I’m in a dire situation. It’s still a car and I drive it as such.

I think part of this is because Tesla is so far ahead on all the "everything else" factors. So many of the other cars the auxiliary systems are a major kludge when compared to the Teslas, they look like they parts binned the cooling/heating systems from their ICE vehicles and it's a rats nest of extra parts, extra weight, extra things to break, and lower efficiency.

There was all that press about the Tesla EPA ratings recently. For sure Tesla screwed that up. But their actual efficiency is still class leading. The other cars are just carrying 25-30% more battery to match/beat Tesla.

[zap]

Originally Posted by kppolich

Now, dead 12v batteries, engine block heaters and diesel gel won't get fixed over the air.

I drove umpteen times in -20Cish real temp (once when it was -40f/c...that was bloody cold) temps in Montreal. Gas stations still pumped gas....unless there was a power failure. Failed Quebecois electric grids...thats a whole other story.

I'm sure Tesla will keep updating infrastructure.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by paredown

contributed to its shortened life, He lived somewhere in the CA hills and used charge it fully--and would start his day going downhill, and his LEAF was getting overcharged every morning. Anecdotal--but I think your're doing the right thing...

I know my friends 2017 Bolt has a 'Hill Top' setting for this exact reason. Our 22 doesn't but it has max charge setting the 17 did not have, same thing probably but the gen2 is a slide adjustment to user choosing where-as the 17 was a pre-determined % FWIW.

I also try to have it's avg static charge state centered on 50%.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by benb

But their actual efficiency is still class leading. The other cars are just carrying 25-30% more battery to match/beat Tesla.

I can say that I know for fact my friend Telsa S one motor is right at 1/2 miles/kWh avg than our 2022 Bolt. Model 3 probably a better comparison. But comparing a eco box to a Salon car I'd say.

I do see the Tesla 3 lowest offering is about same weight as the 2022 Bolt and has slightly smaller [6kWh] battery. Also does have better claimed range, partially attributed to better aero dynamics. 'If I am guessing'. But it is more, so beyond marketing speak certainly.

Google tells us "2021 Model 3 Standard Range has the highest efficiency of any electric vehicle, getting 142 MPGe and 4.17 mi/kWh.". Our Bolt is right about there for yearly avg, empirically 30k of use . And that is because the 3.2ish winter avg drags the 5.2-3 for the warm months down. 2022 Bolt 131MPGe, Standard 3 141 MPGe, a near 10% difference. But # such as these are like saying the sticker claimed economy is what we will see. And we don't, a consistency over time for those ratings certainly.

Again eco box VS over $10k more expensive vehicle. And our eco box is loaded VS the Standard 3 isn't. Although I do not know what that constitutes VS the $5k in options my wife Bolts trim level has over standard in Tesla speak.

I can say IMO [and preference] the Tesla more aero and other cab forward designs are not a seated position I like for driving. But then again I drive a mini-van with way more upright driving position. Part of the car choice equation for me...

And after all that drivel. Tesla sure got the charging right, and why everybody else is chasing it. Or trying to make a deal to use it with a lot better designed systems than any Bolt has had, or will have before the last one roll off assembly line. This significantly alters the use equation if you use a car for more than a commuter as we do the Bolt we have. our Bolt is the right car for our use. So was the 2017 Honda Fit for 1/2 the price frankly. And it was never going to need a need HV battery that will total your car if you gotta pay for it your self.

I shutter to think what these HV plants will cost when these get old. My Sis leaned her old C-Max in CA cost was +6k cheapest to get refurb HV pack, and my Kid in WA boondocks just paid 4k for same in old Prius. [I got him the mint car for free, and he got 2 year before it went] These are maximum 3ish kWh capacity, Bolts and Telsas are 60kWh smallest. I think my friends gen 1 S is 85-6kWh capacity. Pay for one of these HV plants yourself...