SBT GRVL Runs Afoul of Local Ranchers & Residents in Colorado

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by GregL

I understand your frustration and empathize with the infrastructure issues you and your neighbors face. I also note that you stated the key problem. It's not the people who are coming to your area and having vehicle accidents. It's the elected officials who are promoting unsustainable policies. Rather than venting about the visitors, I respectfully suggest getting involved in local politics/administration to ensure that the needs of residents are met by their elected officials. We (sometimes disappointedly...) get the exact government that we voted for.

Greg

LOL, preaching to the choir! The valley is only 10% of the county and yet provide over half of the tax revenue. If you know anything about Utah politics than you would know that as long as you belong to the church and are a republican you can rob the public blind and still get elected. Realtors and developers own the government from the top down. And yes, most voters are lazy and don't pay any attention to the actions of the politicians they vote in. We have actually pushed an incorporation action through to the governor trying to wrestle control of our valley's growth out of the hands of the three county commissioners that currently have the power. Case in point the latest vote by them to allow a huge development that hardly anyone in the valley wants. This is their attempt to transition our little valley into another Park City. The one Commissioner has been caught as owning some of the effected property and will profit greatly from this. But Utah has no Ethics law that requires him to disclose this nor recluse himself from any votes on the matter. Corruption at it's finest!

I personally don't hate on all participators of the events up here. I just see and feel the impact. Heck, I fully plan to do the Iron Lung event up here myself this summer so yeah, I'm a hypocrite for complaining about other events.


I guess my overall point with these posts is the same as many others. Many sides to any situation and we should all at least realize that our own point a view does not rule over another's point of view. Conflicts are typical of life.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by zap

No Trespassing signs were awfully useful when a neighbor tried to steal some of our land.

How so? Lack of signage wouldn't have made theft of the land any more legal. And as soon as you asked them to vacate, their trespassing on the land would become criminal (in Virginia at least).

And that also has nothing to do with basic land access for recreation. Nobody is saying somebody should be able to camp out long term in your back yard, or hunt without permission, or some other damaging use of the property.

My initial comment was about all the NO TRESPASSING signs in rural VW/WV. Just gives off a really negative vibe. Super inhospitable. And in most instances, I'd have no reason to be on their property anyways. In a very small number of instances, it would be nice to use an existing farm track or trail to get from A to B (vs using a public highway or whatever) but for whatever reason, Americans seem unwilling to entertain the notion that land should be available for recreation (as a default state, with mostly obvious exceptions, etc).

[zap]

Originally Posted by Alistair

How so? Lack of signage wouldn't have made theft of the land any more legal.

It was simple and very very cost effective. Contractors would not go past the signs to install a fence.

What I found troubling was my neighbors attitude. You have so much land you won't miss yyy feet. ***....have we gone back in time and i'm on the wrong side off the curtain.

[benb]

Eh.. if you don't put up no trespassing signs and you're not there to police your land in a lot of areas the trespassers will continually keep pushing the bounds until they're doing major damage, B&E, Squatting, stealing property out of houses, breaking windows, even arson.

My extended family has a big plot of land in VT with 3-season houses on it. The entire property is ringed with No Trespassing signs. The road is private and has to be gated for the winter and the property is shut down.

The amount of crap that has happened with trespassers on that property is outrageous. Ever winter someone gets in with a truck and does donuts on the grass. Every house has been broken into. Windows have been smashed. Fires have been set out in the woods/grass. One house got squatters in the last 10 years. The owners all have to take out their property out of the houses and put it in storage for the winter to try and prevent theft. Everyone tries to run their propane or oil tanks out, because if you leave anything in the tanks people will come on the property and steal it and then the oil/gas company needs to inspect & repair.

A snowmobile or a MTB coming through is no big deal but if you don't hold the line in a lot of areas things escalate quickly.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

If you know anything about Utah politics than you would know that as long as you belong to the church and are a republican you can rob the public blind and still get elected.

Yup, spent lots of time in UT working at Hill AFB and DPG. My overriding impression was that the church IS the state. I can't tell you how many times I was asked "Are you LDS?" as a precursor to any further discussion.

Originally Posted by jamesdak

I guess my overall point with these posts is the same as many others. Many sides to any situation and we should all at least realize that our own point a view does not rule over another's point of view. Conflicts are typical of life.

Excellent point and one we all should keep in mind in our increasingly polarized society.

Greg

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

B.S. so now you are telling others how they can or cannot feel? Talk about ridiculous.

Its a message board discussion about a topic that people disagree on. I am not telling you that you cant feel a certain way, I am telling you that feeling is over the top/dramatic.
Feel that way all you want, I am not telling you that you cant feel that way.


Good lord.


ETA- as for the rest of your post, it sums up like this- 'I choose to live in a place with only 3 roads and feel trapped when those roads are used for events, arent cleared quickly enough during storms, and are closed due to accidents!' This is similar to someone who lives next to an airport that already existed and complains about noise.
ETA2- your frustrations over how your valley is being developed sound legitimately frustrating. Too much growth without the infrastructure to support it is really frustrating. I struggle to say there is a direct connection to that and the topic here.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

I guess my overall point with these posts is the same as many others. Many sides to any situation and we should all at least realize that our own point a view does not rule over another's point of view. Conflicts are typical of life.

Yep. Political stereotyping doesn't change the fact that the ranchers near Steamboat have legitimate concerns. A lot of people that think the ranchers are just whining would likely change their tune if they were in the same situation as the ranchers.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

A prisoner in your own home? Come on now. Conversation about frustrating policies, procedures, and activities can be fruitful and interesting up until the point when over the top claims(on either side) are made.
To be clear, the claim that someone feels like a prisoner in their own home is an over the top claim.

Maybe the language is a bit extreme, but its really true if you didnt plan for it.

I get the same stuff living across the street from a high school a few times a year - there's 5/10k races, homecoming parades, band parades, and a few other events that block the road in front of my house - i'm just not going anywhere in a car for a few hours on those days.

If the organizers and local gov't arent making folks well aware that the road is gonna be clogged with gravelling mamils, thats a different problem though.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by benb

Eh.. if you don't put up no trespassing signs and you're not there to police your land in a lot of areas the trespassers will continually keep pushing the bounds until they're doing major damage, B&E, Squatting, stealing property out of houses, breaking windows, even arson.

My extended family has a big plot of land in VT with 3-season houses on it. The entire property is ringed with No Trespassing signs. The road is private and has to be gated for the winter and the property is shut down.

The amount of crap that has happened with trespassers on that property is outrageous

It almost sounds as if your no tresspassing signs arent working.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

Its a message board discussion about a topic that people disagree on. I am not telling you that you cant feel a certain way, I am telling you that feeling is over the top/dramatic.
Feel that way all you want, I am not telling you that you cant feel that way.


Good lord.


ETA- as for the rest of your post, it sums up like this- 'I choose to live in a place with only 3 roads and feel trapped when those roads are used for events, arent cleared quickly enough during storms, and are closed due to accidents!' This is similar to someone who lives next to an airport that already existed and complains about noise.

This is getting fun.

So, if you are trying to arbitrate a solution yet dismiss one sides feelings because in your opinion they are over the top are you going to get somewhere? Maybe give thought to the reasons why that is said and use that to help find a solution. We have to acknowledge our own biases sometimes in life to see things equally for all.

As to your edit, for sure some truth to that but there again it's never simple. For decades there has been a general plan in place for the valley that was based on keeping it rural, limiting growth do to lack of infrastructure like roads, water, etc. I lived here in the 80-90's and knew how things where and the issues. Before moving back in the 2000's I followed the actions around the general plan for several years, discussed current conditions with generational families still living here and even came back a year before moving to see for myself. Things seemed positive. Then about three years after returning the developers moved in like vultures. One of the first moves was a local realtor/state senator leaving the senate and running for county commissioner to "save the valley". Turns out to be one big lie. First move were massive property taxes to force out many of the ranchers, pensioners, and generational families. Then committee that governs the general plan are appointed by the county commissioners. So suddenly the rancher and long time residents were off the committee and the realtor, builders, developers, and lawyers became the committee. Heck the state legislature passed law saying that if you were the majority land owner you could incorporate an area and for three years appoint your own government to run it. No voting for positions those first three years. That allowed the one owner of a local resort to incorporate and area with over 200 hundred homes, and do whatever they wanted without repercussions. We had to take the state to court to get that law thrown out. So your analogy is basically wrong. It's more the case of living in a rural area and having the airport built in on top of you. In fact the same power hungry bastards tried to force in a heliport to fly skiers into the back country. They got away with flights for one winter leaving from behind our school and right over my house shaking the hell out of everything. Once again, back to court to stop that.

Things are never simple but yeah you keep on not seeing the total picture and passing judgement. Makes for some entertainment if nothing else.

I'll keep on being as over the top as I can for ya! I am going to step out of this one though as I am so guilty of derailing from the OP's post. Sorry!

[November Dave]

My life is split between 2 tourist traps (Newport, RI and Woodstock, VT) and we get frustrated when you quite literally can't get across town in Newport during Jazz Fest and Folk Fest weekends in the summer, and when all the g.d. leaf peepers swarm every square inch of space in the fall. But we chose these places with eyes wide open, could move if it got bad enough, and have the profound luxury to be in the other place when one is at peak madness. I'd feel quite a bit differently if these situations had happened after we established in our places, and were as tied to the places as ranchers are.

A few miles away from us in Woodstock, along one of the best cycling routes you're ever likely to find, is a farm so scenic, that became so popular on Instagram, that I s--t you not the road going up to it is closed with police gated access to residents through leaf season. You're free to ride your bike up it, though. The house/property was annually SWARMED with people wading right onto it to snap their pics, and the road was just plugged with clueless people such that something had to be done. Imagine that?

On the other hand, the guy on the VT Overland route several miles in the other direction, who puts up all kinds of signs on the public road that he lives on telling the Overland promoter and participants to go to hell and get out of his life (in MUCH less diplomatic terms)? He can get over it (my actual feelings toward this guy are much less diplomatic than expressed here - he's a year-round a-hole).

[rowebr]

We've had several examples of no trespassing signs that supposedly convey morbid humor, such as "I have a gun and a backhoe" or whatever...

I just want to say I don't think those are funny. Nobody deserves to get shot for mistakenly wandering onto someone's property, or for going just a few steps onto somebody's land to get safely away from the road to fix a flat.

I wish people who post those signs would think twice about the message they are sending.

[tommyrod74]

Originally Posted by rowebr

We've had several examples of no trespassing signs that supposedly convey morbid humor, such as "I have a gun and a backhoe" or whatever...

I just want to say I don't think those are funny. Nobody deserves to get shot for mistakenly wandering onto someone's property, or for going just a few steps onto somebody's land to get safely away from the road to fix a flat.

I wish people who post those signs would think twice about the message they are sending.

I think the problem is that they know EXACTLY what message they are sending. It's similar to the car window decals with a silhouette of a AR-15. Antisocial at best and threatening at worst.

The message is, sadly, the entire point.

For the record, I'm 100% for (responsible and reasonable) gun ownership.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

Things are never simple but yeah you keep on not seeing the total picture and passing judgement. Makes for some entertainment if nothing else.

You have stepped out, but by all means step back in and let me know specifically what the total picture is that I am not seeing.
Are you referring to your situation and list of complaints, are you referring to the SBT GRVL situation, or are you referring to rural living in general?
The challenge with these sort of conversations is that part of the beauty- the natural divergence in subject and input on related expereinces- also makes it difficult to sometimes know what a poster's point even is. The longer a thread goes, the more times this is seen.

I get the total picture of SBT GRVL and if the county doesnt agree to permits moving forward, I would understand why. I hope that doesnt happen, but I do see the total picture and recognize the views from both sides.
As for your many comments about a similar situation where you live, jokes aside, yeah I genuinely understand that road closures in a valley would be frustrating and limiting. I dont think it is quite to the level of description as you or others view it, but yes I do completely understand the frustration and inconvenience.


Everyone passes judgement once they analyze a situation and form an opinion. That isnt inherently bad, its actually necessary for productive living. Being open and willing to learn and change your opinion given clarified or new information is crucial too.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Alistair

How so? Lack of signage wouldn't have made theft of the land any more legal. And as soon as you asked them to vacate, their trespassing on the land would become criminal (in Virginia at least).

And that also has nothing to do with basic land access for recreation. Nobody is saying somebody should be able to camp out long term in your back yard, or hunt without permission, or some other damaging use of the property.

My initial comment was about all the NO TRESPASSING signs in rural VW/WV. Just gives off a really negative vibe. Super inhospitable. And in most instances, I'd have no reason to be on their property anyways. In a very small number of instances, it would be nice to use an existing farm track or trail to get from A to B (vs using a public highway or whatever) but for whatever reason, Americans seem unwilling to entertain the notion that land should be available for recreation (as a default state, with mostly obvious exceptions, etc).

Living in SW Virginia I do see that a lot. My take on it was that they felt they needed to do it in case some idiot trespasses and breaks his leg he can hire a lawyer and sue the property owner but if they have the sign up then it's some sort of protection?

But I agree, they are sort of almost threatening and for the most part unnecessary given I'm wrong above. From what I know about the people in SW VA there is NO WAY I would trespass on anyone's property and I highly doubt many do outside of young kids.