Common wisdom on calves & cleats

[benb]

Where did this stuff come from?

The entire time I've been riding there has been a steadily building drumbeat towards more and more rearward cleat positions. I have certainly been influenced by this.

The latest shoes I got this year I upsized. My old shoes I'd get hotspots and some pain in general on longer rides. I think I started creeping the cleats back on those shoes over the years because of the common wisdom that I should be doing.

The new shoes I think I by default ended up with them further back.. the shoes are just built to support it. But I'm kind of realizing I'm getting MORE calf cramping with these. It's fine at a "Zone 1" type effort but at tempo and above it starts becoming a real issue and I think starts causing more weird stuff up the chain.

In general most of the last 20 years I've had like zero calf issues with clipless pedals. This is pretty dramatic I guess. This morning after I got home I basically moved the cleats almost all the way forward to the 1st MTP and I'm going to see what happens. A 1/2 mile test ride around the block made my whole pedal stroke feel dramatically better. More fluid for sure, though it may be this is a big enough change I will need to adjust the saddle. No time for a hard effort really but the difference was dramatic in a 30 second effort. Way above FTP with zero feeling of calf strain, and this was after I was already relatively cooked from a ride where my calves were cramping significantly trying to do some intervals.

[Turkle]

I am the sort of person that runs on my toes. I just am more comfortable putting the weight far forward on my feet. So I position my cleats accordingly.

I happen to like being able to engage my calf muscles for all-out pushes. When the cleats are further back, I feel like the calves don't fire at all.

The only problem with pushing the cleats forward is it moves my seat back a corresponding amount, putting me farther from the bars. A cm here and a cm there can make a pretty big difference. So that's something to consider.

[benb]

I moved the saddle down and forward as part of trying to figure out what's been going on since I got these shoes so I have plenty of room to move it up or back again.

[Jeffrobots]

This is interesting.

I grabbed a pair of shimano rc7s and especially early on I noticed I was cooking my calves. I slammed the cleats back and just sort of road through it and I’m pretty much fine without calf cramping issues now. Pushing them back seemed to help a bit but it certainly wasn’t a complete resolution. I more or less just followed the wisdom that it was the right thing to do.

But that was kind of a wild-guess approach I think. I wonder if pulling them forward was actually the right move and it just so happens that after a dozen rides or so, I was able to adapt to the setup enough that it doesn’t bother me.


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[Turkle]

When I switched from being a heel-strike runner to a toe-strike runner it took some time for my calves to catch up and get used to the effort. So I think if you're drastically changing your muscle mix while riding you want to go easy for a few weeks to prevent injury! (Advice from a guy in his 40's that's had more than his fair share of overuse injuries)

[benb]

This has actually been a massive improvement... huge huge improvement in every way since I did it. I have had to fiddle with my saddle fore-aft a little but not as much as I moved the cleats.

I had a pretty rearward position on my old shoes too but hadn't felt great for a while, but I think the new shoes ended up with them further back and it was like the straw that broke the camel's back.

My calves are getting better fast.. there's clearly less stress on them since I moved the cleats forward. I haven't been sprinting but the difference in a "jump" to high power levels and at high cadence is hugely noticeable.

I would have said I adapted to the more rearward position on the old shoes maybe? But it was an adaptation that probably made me slower and put excessive load on my quads and hips?

[Jeffrobots]

I was back on my trainer last night for the first time in a few weeks and started getting some calf cramping and leg numbness (on opposite sides) again after feeling like I had solved it. I couldn’t help but think I need to play around with the cleat locations a bit more. They’re currently slammed allll the way back. I also had recently bumped my saddle up 2mm, so maybe I should adjust to that first…

But I kind of want to try some subtle tweaks on this to gauge if that’s causing the issues.


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[Ti Designs]

As a bike fitter I've always set up cleats near the ball of the foot. I've found it's not so much the position, but the rider's motor skills that make that work. I describe it as "where you would push off the stair below you when going up stairs". The learning process has been your whole life, moving the cleats back often results in going toes down. That's not to say that a new learning process can't change that. Other fitters have made a strong case for the calf muscle being a limiting factor in force transfer. I break the force generated in the pedal stroke up into two large muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes push down from 1:00 to 4:00, quads push forward from 11:00 to 2:00. There's no reason either of those ranges should include the calf muscles. This is something I need to test on the trainer, probably in the off-season.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Ti Designs

As a bike fitter I've always set up cleats near the ball of the foot. I've found it's not so much the position, but the rider's motor skills that make that work. I describe it as "where you would push off the stair below you when going up stairs". The learning process has been your whole life, moving the cleats back often results in going toes down. That's not to say that a new learning process can't change that. Other fitters have made a strong case for the calf muscle being a limiting factor in force transfer. I break the force generated in the pedal stroke up into two large muscle groups, glutes and quads. Glutes push down from 1:00 to 4:00, quads push forward from 11:00 to 2:00. There's no reason either of those ranges should include the calf muscles. This is something I need to test on the trainer, probably in the off-season.

Would you move the cleat position for someone who's more of a heel dropper?

[benb]

OK so it's been 2 months. My cleats are a lot closer to ball of the foot. IIRC it was like a 1cm move when I first posted this.

I'm not sure if I'm dropping my heels less but I am riding better with more comfort. My calves have taken a while to get used to it (stiffness) but they have come along for the ride at this point.

People would say I was a heel dropper, but I had pretty rearward cleat position. It's definitely chicken versus egg.

[John H.]

What shoes did you switch from and too?
I think that often times calf cramps can come from a different shoe more than cleat position.
I tried out a pair of Specialized mountain bike shoes earlier this year. Gave me calf cramps. Moved cleats in every direction to suss that out.
I determined that it was the shape and rocker of the sole that gave me cramps and that the shoe was not for me.

[benb]

That seems like a likely culprit. A difficult thing to figure out though!

[Gabe77]

A bit late to this discussion - but you may wish to read Steve Hogg's thoughts on this.
I used to train according to "as forward as I can stand" but then discovered this guy and reading his fitting advice really improved my riding. Turns out there is an order of functionality in which muscle groups start to strain/fatigue and the smallest therefore weakest go first. By putting more load on the calves this makes them start cramping ahead of the thigh muscle groups - which are the driving engine of the bike.
By moving the cleat as far back as possible this is avoided - I've been following this advice since and its worked for me. He believes the midfoot position is actually ideal since it reduces the ankle/hinge to foot to the barest minimum degree fo freedom.
Check out his site with some free articles (others by subscription)
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com
(Im not related in any way to this business btw)