Canti versus linear pull brakes

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

I believe cantilever brakes more readily match the pull ratio of typical road levers making it easier to choose levers you prefer.

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

This statement is not accurate, at least with the TRP 9 or TRP 8.4 choices. those are made specifically with shimano or campy/sram cable pull in mind

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

V-brakes require more lever pull per brake pad movement so they don't work well with typical road levers. To solve this problem, you must use V-brake specific road levers, or add a Travel Agent to the brake caliper to change the pull ratio.

This statement is true only for standard (MTB) V-brakes. To better match road levers, Mini-V brakes were developed, which require a smaller lever travel than standard V-brakes. (The downside of mini-V brakes is that they don't have as much tire clearance as standard V-brakes.)

The leverage ratio of the different brake types (roughly):

High profile cantilever brakes: Between 0.7:1
Low profile cantilever brakes: 1:1
Single pivot caliper brakes: 1:1
Dual pivot caliper brakes: 1.6:1
Direct mount caliper brakes: 2:1
Mini-V brakes: 2:1
Standard V-brakes: 3:1

[scopes]

I have both the TRP CX 8.4 and the a Paul Touring Canti/Neo Retro Combo on two different bikes. CX (8.4) and touring (Pauls) - both using Koolstop Salmon pads.

Modulation is better on the canti's but I find stopping power much better with the 8.4s. I have to grab a handful of brake to lock up the rear on my X0-3 with the Pauls and imagine it would be difficult to brake with adequate power using brifters. No issues locking up/endo with 8.4 and brifter.

For adjustability, slight edge to the 8.4 as they were easier to set up.

Durability seems to be on par, as I've run the Pauls for 2 years and 8.4 ~1 year.

The Pauls have better clearance, and I'm able to run fenders on that bike because of it.

In summary: 8.4 less modulation, more power and the opposite with the cantis.

[notsew]

I have cx8.4s, they replaced shorty ultimates. This is my race bike and I have never once wished I still had the cantis. In my opinion, there is no worse brake than a cantilever. When I think about the hours of my life I wasted fiddling with those crappy brakes, it still makes me mad. Sure, they work fine when they are set up correctly, but you ride it once, wear the pads a bit and they are no longer set up correctly.

You need true wheels for the mini-v's, but that doesn't seem like an unrealistic expectation.

Out of cross season I use this bike for gravel, and around here gravel means straight up and straight down. The mini-v's work like a dream (compared to canti's which could be a bit terrifying at times). Disc would obviously be better, but its not enough to make me want a different bike.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by scopes

I have both the TRP CX 8.4 and the a Paul Touring Canti/Neo Retro Combo on two different bikes. CX (8.4) and touring (Pauls) - both using Koolstop Salmon pads.

Modulation is better on the canti's but I find stopping power much better with the 8.4s. I have to grab a handful of brake to lock up the rear on my X0-3 with the Pauls and imagine it would be difficult to brake with adequate power using brifters. No issues locking up/endo with 8.4 and brifter.

For adjustability, slight edge to the 8.4 as they were easier to set up.

Durability seems to be on par, as I've run the Pauls for 2 years and 8.4 ~1 year.

The Pauls have better clearance, and I'm able to run fenders on that bike because of it.

In summary: 8.4 less modulation, more power and the opposite with the cantis.

^ this is true...some people say they are a little bit more on/off than you would get from canti - I would describe it more like the amount of lever throw between off and full on is a lot less. you can modulate it but need to be more accurate with your hand.

[bfd]

My experience is that mini v brakes are far superior to canti brakes when using Campy shifters. I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two. I was fed up! I went into my lbs and they sold me a $20 tektro 926al Mini v brake and behold, I had stopping power! No squeal, no shudder, just squeeze the lever and stop! I tossed the crappy suntour brake!

Note, I was later told about a device that might have made the canti front brake work. Supposedly for about the same money, you can get a fork cable hanger for a canti brake they will eliminate the shuddering, squealing and lack of power. I think you can get this for like $15-20:



Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

[PacNW2Ford]

Originally Posted by charliedid

How large a fender with the Mini-moto?

The brake isn’t the limiting factor on my bike. The brake opening is larger than the fork opening. I estimate I could easily run a 54mm fender over 42’s with room to spare.

[GoldenUnicorn]

There isn't any doubt in my mind that V brakes are far superior. The mini-V's even work fine in mud.

As I always told my customers, if you need to slow down, cantis are fine. If you want to actually stop, its a V or GTFO.

[Burning Pines]

I had tektro mini vees cable rub on a wtb nano (40mm) on the back of one bike but not the front so I guess it depends on stud placement. That’s all I got.

[kingpin75s]

Originally Posted by bfd

I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two.

Canti brakes worked fine in rear but not front. Sounds like flex in the fork steerer tube. Most common cause I have found for issues with a Canti brake up front. Light fork with a carbon steerer tube possibly?

[bfd]

Originally Posted by kingpin75s

Canti brakes worked fine in rear but not front. Sounds like flex in the fork steerer tube. Most common cause I have found for issues with a Canti brake up front. Light fork with a carbon steerer tube possibly?

I agree that a canti brake in the rear was fine. In the front, not so much. There may have been flex in the fork, but I had a steel fork with steel steerer tube so don’t know if that was the cause of all the shuddering, squealing and lack of power requiring constant adjustments. In contrast, once I put on the cheapie tektro Mini v brake, instant braking! Ymmv! Good Luck!

[jc031699]

Originally Posted by bfd

My experience is that mini v brakes are far superior to canti brakes when using Campy shifters. I initially installed some Suntour xc canti brakes and the rear worked well. However, I could never get the front properly installed. Even with kool stop salmon pads, the canti brakes would shudder, squeal and just plain not work. Even if I got them properly adjusted, it would last maybe a ride or two. I was fed up! I went into my lbs and they sold me a $20 tektro 926al Mini v brake and behold, I had stopping power! No squeal, no shudder, just squeeze the lever and stop! I tossed the crappy suntour brake!

Note, I was later told about a device that might have made the canti front brake work. Supposedly for about the same money, you can get a fork cable hanger for a canti brake they will eliminate the shuddering, squealing and lack of power. I think you can get this for like $15-20:



Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

That may relieve the shuddering but probably not the squealing and lack of power. Lennard Zinn has written a lot about steerer/stem mounted canti cable stops vs these lower fork mounted ones.



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[jc031699]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

This statement is true only for standard (MTB) V-brakes. To better match road levers, Mini-V brakes were developed, which require a smaller lever travel than standard V-brakes. (The downside of mini-V brakes is that they don't have as much tire clearance as standard V-brakes.)



The leverage ratio of the different brake types (roughly):



High profile cantilever brakes: Between 0.7:1

Low profile cantilever brakes: 1:1

Single pivot caliper brakes: 1:1

Dual pivot caliper brakes: 1.6:1

Direct mount caliper brakes: 2:1

Mini-V brakes: 2:1

Standard V-brakes: 3:1

This is incredibly helpful and revealing.

Thank you-

What do you make of all the talk about mechanical advantage being the inverse of actual stopping power? I.e. firm feeling brakes stop worse and mushy feeling brakes stop better?

In my experience high profile cantis are mushier and stop worse. Maybe my grip strength is the issue...




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[peanutgallery]

This thread is like reading an argument over the nuances of different sail materials for wooden, 19th century cargo ships

Get a bike with hydro disc and don't look back. You can thank me later

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

This thread is like reading an argument over the nuances of different sail materials for wooden, 19th century cargo ships

Get a bike with hydro disc and don't look back. You can thank me later

your shtick is getting really old. seriously.