FTP shenanagins

[makoti]

Originally Posted by ergott

At the suggestion of coaches smarter than me I'm slowly getting away from ERG mode for a lot of workouts. It forces you to pay attention to putting out the power yourself instead of relying on a machine to provide the resistance. Makes a difference when trying to duplicate efforts IRL. ERG has it's uses, but I think it's relied on too much for most.

Lately, I've been doing one non-erg workout a week for just this reason. There's a mental aspect to workouts & hard riding that needs to be trained, as well. For just holding a wattage for X long, erg is great. For training to adjust to hold that wattage when it will drop if you don't pay attention (IE: real life), it is lacking.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

I was under the impression that by definition 1hr power is = FTP, if you can’t hold the power for an hour it isn’t your FTP? Like the above poster claimed he had a 300+ watt ftp yet averaged 260 watts in a 40 minute breakaway due to “factors”... this is what I’m talking about.

No. That's a very rough shorthand that people use, and it's extremely misleading. Coggan, who developed the term/analysis FTP, defines it as “the highest power a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing.”

Your FTP (functional threshold power) is the power output at which you are at your aerobic threshold - the max output of your body's ability to fuel your muscles aerobically - that is, with oxygen, without dipping into other fuel sources.

Wouldn't it be a little strangely coincidental for this threshold to be able to last for the amount of time we use to divide up a day? Or for it to be the same for everybody?

TTE is the other part of the equation: time to exhaustion - how long you can ride at your threshold.

[ergott]

Originally Posted by laupsi

I disagree. there may riders/ametuer racers who can put out this kind of power; it is however an uncommon trait among most cyclists or to normalize things, it is highly doubtful there are lots of non-pros, young and old, who could ride at or above 4 w/kg for an hour long effort.

I'm almost there. I can do 4w/kg for 20+ minutes, but best hour so far is 3.7w/kg. I still think I can get closer this season. Still barely out of winter right now.

wasn't even my PR up Alpe, I ramped up effort then ran out of mountain
https://www.strava.com/activities/2193965623/overview

[dem]

I think a lot of this is where you live and how many strong riders there are.

At 4.2/wkg, I usually land in the top 5 or 10% of >20 minute climbs around here, which for me is right around 305W threshold (or 325ish for 20 minutes)

So on a climb with 2000 people attempting, 200 of them are north of those kind of numbers. So I wouldn't call that unusual or rare.

Get into the 1% and .1% and that's crazy bananas fast, especially for multiple hours.

[echappist]

deleted

[nate2351]

This always boils down to the fact that there are more factors to racing than just your watts/kilo. Unless we’re talking Strava, race craft is much more important if you just race local.

I know from experience 5 wkg looks great on paper but you have to race smart or it’s usless.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by nate2351

This always boils down to the fact that there are more factors to racing than just your watts/kilo. Unless we’re talking Strava, race craft is much more important if you just race local.

I know from experience 5 wkg looks great on paper but you have to race smart or it’s usless.

very true. for a while i was coaching a rider who, in w/kg (and raw w) could do more for 5-20 minutes than i could... but i was 3 categories higher than he was. he could ride me off his wheel when we rode together, but he wasn't great at making speed in races or finishing them off.

[bitpuddle]

Why would one care about such a thing?

[laupsi]

Originally Posted by ergott

I'm almost there. I can do 4w/kg for 20+ minutes, but best hour so far is 3.7w/kg. I still think I can get closer this season. Still barely out of winter right now.

wasn't even my PR up Alpe, I ramped up effort then ran out of mountain
https://www.strava.com/activities/2193965623/overview

keep at it and best of luck. the additional .3 w/kg will take a lot of focus, but you won't know till you put in the effort. my last 20' test brought me to 3.9, so close, but that additional .10 is a daunting no.

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by nooneline

No. That's a very rough shorthand that people use, and it's extremely misleading. Coggan, who developed the term/analysis FTP, defines it as “the highest power a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing.”

Your FTP (functional threshold power) is the power output at which you are at your aerobic threshold - the max output of your body's ability to fuel your muscles aerobically - that is, with oxygen, without dipping into other fuel sources.
...

TTE is the other part of the equation: time to exhaustion - how long you can ride at your threshold.

^ This.

The fatigue profile is different for different riders. If a rider trains for getting max power over 20 mins, then it is unlikely they will be able to hold 95% of their 20 minute power for an hour.

To ride 95% of max 20 minute power for an hour, a rider needs to train.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by laupsi

keep at it and best of luck. the additional .3 w/kg will take a lot of focus, but you won't know till you put in the effort. my last 20' test brought me to 3.9, so close, but that additional .10 is a daunting no.

Originally Posted by ergott

I'm almost there. I can do 4w/kg for 20+ minutes, but best hour so far is 3.7w/kg. I still think I can get closer this season. Still barely out of winter right now.

wasn't even my PR up Alpe, I ramped up effort then ran out of mountain
https://www.strava.com/activities/2193965623/overview

good luck to you both

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by tctyres

^ This.

The fatigue profile is different for different riders. If a rider trains for getting max power over 20 mins, then it is unlikely they will be able to hold 95% of their 20 minute power for an hour.

To ride 95% of max 20 minute power for an hour, a rider needs to train.

my experience with this is training a lot of 20 minute power for a little while - steady, dynamic, you name it. got to a point where i could absolutely destroy a 20-minute test, but i was really stressed by races that went longer than 50 minuted, and i think i'd have struggled to do 80% of my 20-min max for 60 minutes. i've shifted my training - my 60-120minute power is a lot better than it was before, but i've had to give my 20-min power a haircut!

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by dem

I think a lot of this is where you live and how many strong riders there are.



At 4.2/wkg, I usually land in the top 5 or 10% of >20 minute climbs around here, which for me is right around 305W threshold (or 325ish for 20 minutes)



So on a climb with 2000 people attempting, 200 of them are north of those kind of numbers. So I wouldn't call that unusual or rare.



Get into the 1% and .1% and that's crazy bananas fast, especially for multiple hours.

Tailwinds, leadouts - there's a big portion of that gap...



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[echappist]

Originally Posted by nooneline

my experience with this is training a lot of 20 minute power for a little while - steady, dynamic, you name it. got to a point where i could absolutely destroy a 20-minute test, but i was really stressed by races that went longer than 50 minuted, and i think i'd have struggled to do 80% of my 20-min max for 60 minutes. i've shifted my training - my 60-120minute power is a lot better than it was before, but i've had to give my 20-min power a haircut!

my coach started discounting my 20-min power and haircutting my FTP ever since we started working together

First year I worked with him, I did a climb at 330W for slightly more than 20 minutes (Bear Mt); his remarks? Seems like your FTP is right around 305-310.

A few years later, I did 315W for 30 minutes at the tail end of a ~1hr 45 min race (in a 2-man break). His remark? 290W for FTP seems reasonable for now (this after doing a hard race the previous day).

I think there was a psychological component to why he dismisses it, b/c people too often get focused on that one number (kinda like how NFL fans focus mostly on that flashy 40-yd dash time while paying less attention to other indicators). What i'm trying to say is that long-duration aerobic power have a lot of qualitative use, but themselves don't mean much, unless there's a 20 min long hill to climb (which is almost never). However, that doesn't stop many from aiming for higher 20 or 30-min steady state power, at the expense of power that really matters in most road racing around the country (repeatable 3-8 min efforts).

So despite being a cat-4 the year i first started working with my coach and doing successful cat-3 breakaways in my last year of mass start racing, my in-form FTP didn't increase that much at all (305W first year to 315W-320W in that last year), and my peak 20 min probably didn't go up that much either (330W to perhaps 340W). The difference, however, was that I was able to punch to get a gap and then hold it (while still going above FTP) for another 5-10 minutes, so that I was able to weather the flurry of actions in the pack. By the time I had to drop below threshold (have to, or else i'd blow), the strong riders in the pack played their cards, but I still had a gap. That's when you let psychology take over, and those remaining realize that the break isn't coming back for a good while (or ever).

This is what allowed me to be at the table with people who probably got at least 5% on me.

now, different story, if we are talking ITT

[smctigue1]

Originally Posted by laupsi

I agree w/the OP; I've done TR ramp tests and 20' TP tests which puts my FTP at a level that is higher than what I think I could do for a solid hour. I also know that at an age of over 50 I will never have the courage or stamina to ride for an hour to find out what that number actually is. This said, I am confident that my FTP is lower than what a segmented test would interpret.

Yeah, same here. Although I do believe the TR ramp test gives me a number that works well for the TR training I don't believe for a second that I could hold that power for an hour.