650b wheels - is this still a thing?

[donevwil]

With degrading infrastructure so prevalent in my area (and no signs of improvement) 650b with 42mm + tires is my new sweet spot. No longer have a 650b bike (a couple months away from that), but much prefer 650b to 700c for fast paced road riding with large (40mm+) tires. The days of my Potts with supple 700c x 32mm tires being perfect for my local roads is gone, a 650b road bike (like sparky33's Firefly) will be my next true road bike.

Low trail in and of itself does not dictate a bike's handling, loaded or not. Too many other variables at play, but that's for another thread.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

i think 650b is ok, but im wondering about low trail these days. my 650b low trail bike handles like crap. in fact i crashed for the first time in France because i could not counter steer floppiness on the front wheel.

so i would try 650b again, but low trail is no longer something i am interested in at all. i like to be able to take my hands off my bars, i like a bike that handles well, and i have not met a low trail bike that handles properly.

at the end of the day, folks gotta sell bikes, and riders gotta figure out what works for them. Jan Heine likes his low trail bikes and has seemingly figured out how to handle them better than me. Ill stay with racier geometry, it just works better for me. and nothing with more circumference than 36mm 700c or 42mm 650b please if i want handling and speed.

i think some folks are just dilly dallying on gravel, and so maybe for that these fat tire long wheelbase bikes are good. but for what i like to do, they are too slow in every way, but mainly handling. perhaps ive just not ridden a properly designed version yet...

Originally Posted by slowpoke

Low trail is meant to be paired with a front load. Without the need for that, I'd stick with normal trail figures. Though as someone who's been riding more dirt lately, I do question low trail on dirt.

My only low trail bike was my elephant and I thought it handled pretty well. Never had a problem taking my hands of the handlebars. As far as weight up front, the bike handled great with weight up front but for D2R2 a few years ago I took off the rack and bag and just rode with a burrito bag and I thought it also handled fine. No problems there, definitely a different feeling than mid/high trial but was fine.

As far as 650B. I have been ridding 650s since like 2012 or so. I am a big fan on a certain bike/for a specific task. On my OPEN, on gravel, there is nothing better. However I was never a fan of 650B on pavement, they always feel slugish to me, specially the bigger sizes. 42s are tolerable, 48s I don't like. Now, I am fine with it on a mixed ride because I know I will definitely appreciate the big size when gravel/single track comes. But if the rid has less than 20% on gravel I rather ride big 700s.
650B to me have its place and that is on a gravel bike but I would never put them on a road bike. I know Jan and his friends love it but it just does not work for me. Road bike I like a nice meaty 28 to 32mm tire... Can still rip some gravel, as comfortable as a 650B (specially the 32mm) and feels fast (probably not faster than 650b but it sure feels it and to me I go by feel, just a dude trying to have a good time)

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by HTupolev

That was 650c, not 650b.

Yes, different sizes.

Interestingly, 26" (MTB), 650b and 700c are effectively all the same size. Although they all use different diameter rims, the wheel size is the combination of the rim + tire. Because of the width/height of the tires typically used on each rim, they all end up being roughly the same outer diameter. (See additional comments below).

Originally Posted by HTupolev

There was never any evidence that 650c is slower for road and tri bikes than 700c, and numerous elite events were won on them. The main reason that 700c regained hold in triathlon bikes is simply that roadies are traditional and asked for it.

Small diameter wheels (such as 650c) do have less aerodynamic drag, but they also have more rolling resistance. The initial push to 650c wheels on TT/Tri bikes was for lower aero drag, but perhaps because that was offset by the RR (or maybe other reasons) they never really demonstrated extra speed.

As mentioned, 650b, 700c, and (the now obsolete) 27" wheels have been the most common road wheel sizes, and all have roughly the same outer diameter. Is there something magic about this size? Not exactly. it has long been known (since the old "bone-shaker" days) that larger wheels roll better, especially on rough surfaces. This wheels size become standard because it is the largest diameter wheel that can be easily fit to the range of different bike sizes used by the majority of their intended audience - meaning, of course, male cyclists. Now that there are more women riding then ever before, the industry really needs to re-think this, and consider adopting a 2nd, smaller, standard wheel size that can fit to the range of bikes sizes suitable for the majority of female cyclist (who on average are shorter than their male counterparts).

[donevwil]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

My only low trail bike was my elephant and I thought it handled pretty well. Never had a problem taking my hands of the handlebars. As far as weight up front, the bike handled great with weight up front but for D2R2 a few years ago I took off the rack and bag and just rode with a burrito bag and I thought it also handled fine. No problems there, definitely a different feeling than mid/high trial but was fine.

The NFE's geo is a well established standard for such bikes (thanks Fred Blasdel). My Endpoint H/G was nearly identical and I ditto your experience. Loaded I'll never use rear panniers again outside of a lightly loaded tailfin. Unloaded I found it much more confidence instilling on the road than my 700 x 44 BMC MonsterX.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by donevwil

The NFE's geo is a well established standard for such bikes (thanks Fred Blasdel). My Endpoint H/G was nearly identical and I ditto your experience. Loaded I'll never use rear panniers again outside of a lightly loaded tailfin. Unloaded I found it much more confidence instilling on the road than my 700 x 44 BMC MonsterX.

Yeah I never got the "you must ride front load or bike will explode feeling", I have to say that I quite liked the unloaded low trail handling on that bike.

[tony_mm]

Originally Posted by HTupolev

That was 650c, not 650b.

That's why I wrote 650 wheels and not 650B wheels ;-)

Originally Posted by HTupolev

The main reason that 700c regained hold in triathlon bikes is simply that roadies are traditional and asked for it.

...and triathletes back in the day were the opposite as roadies

[PeregrineA1]

I’m enjoying both 650b x 2.35 and 700c x 50 right now.


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[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by donevwil

With degrading infrastructure so prevalent in my area (and no signs of improvement) 650b with 42mm + tires is my new sweet spot. No longer have a 650b bike (a couple months away from that), but much prefer 650b to 700c for fast paced road riding with large (40mm+) tires. The days of my Potts with supple 700c x 32mm tires being perfect for my local roads is gone, a 650b road bike (like sparky33's Firefly) will be my next true road bike.

Low trail in and of itself does not dictate a bike's handling, loaded or not. Too many other variables at play, but that's for another thread.

agree with most points here, im sure some low trail bikes are fine, maybe mine simply isnt, even though it was built by a guy who is supposed to know that sort of stuff. Im talking about it loaded and unloaded both. touring in france i was loaded with around 15-20 lbs, mainly out front. perhaps i suck at packing, perhaps i need to learn how to ride with a load, but my gravel bike with a strap on front bag and a large saddle bag can carry nearly as much with no penalty to handling or weight. maybe im used to quicker steering, and so do not enjoy what feels to me like extra effort to make the front end do what i want right when i want it done. maybe its just not for me?

ive also found 650b tires are harder to seat into a rim when you are on the road and need to fix a flat with a hand pump. you need like 90lbs of pressure to get the bead to pop into the rim properly, and thats nearly impossible with a hand pump roadside. maybe this was part of my crap front end handling.

all i can do is comment on my experience as a picky rider when it differs from the echoes.

[2metalhips]

Originally Posted by PeregrineA1

I’m enjoying both 650b x 2.35 and 700c x 50 right now.


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Could you expound on the differences please, especially on really rough,rocky ,mtb like terrain. That bike looks great. Thanks.

[PeregrineA1]

Originally Posted by 2metalhips

Could you expound on the differences please, especially on really rough,rocky ,mtb like terrain. That bike looks great. Thanks.

The bike rides much like a rigid MTB on rocky trails with the 650b wheels.. I do not feel limited except for the lack of a dropper post on steep downhills. My 29” MTB has 2.4’s, so this is not much of a change in that regard.

I’ve not ridden the 700c on anything more than relatively smooth dirt/gravel and pavement. It works very well in those conditions. I may do some more challenging dirt with these wheels this coming weekend.

From a handling perspective, it’s a little sharper/crisper with the 700c wheels. Probably a function of sidewalk height as the outside diameter is virtually identical.


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[marciero]

At least in my world, accounting for 95% of my riding.

[sparky33]

Originally Posted by PeregrineA1

I’m enjoying both 650b x 2.35 and 700c x 50 right now.

Which 700x50 do you have there?

[sparky33]

650b was a long time coming, and now it is definitely here.

We are almost to the point where bike review articles don't have to first explain what 650b is, almost.

Unfortunately 27.5 died in order to give life to 27.5+, for mtb anyway.

I feel post-lowtrail approaching.

[tony_mm]

Originally Posted by sparky33

650b was a long time coming, and now it is definitely here.

We are almost to the point where bike review articles don't have to first explain what 650b is, almost.

Unfortunately 27.5 died in order to give life to 27.5+, for mtb anyway.

I feel post-lowtrail approaching.

For gravel bikes the reviewed bikes are often with 650B wheels even if the bike could use 700C. Last example the Open WI.DE.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

ive also found 650b tires are harder to seat into a rim when you are on the road and need to fix a flat with a hand pump. you need like 90lbs of pressure to get the bead to pop into the rim properly, and thats nearly impossible with a hand pump roadside. maybe this was part of my crap front end handling.

To be fair this has zero to do with the BSD measurement, though I don't doubt that's how it's played out in your experience. The 650b Switchback Hills and Thunder Burts on Stan's Crest Mk3 rims are the easiest tires I've ever installed. Knock on wood, but I've yet to have bead seating issues roadside with any of my tubeless setups.

Originally Posted by Mzilliox

i
all i can do is comment on my experience as a picky rider when it differs from the echoes.

And it is valued by this guy.